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juliecinci
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Cindy wrote:
High school is a time many re-evaluate (and/or panic)- what did you find yourself letting go of and how did you do it? If you feel you can share-
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The most difficult part of coming to terms with unschooling was my strong belief that my kids should go to college. Jon has his MA and I am getting mine. Jon teaches at two universities. We are "school-y" people.
So when we approached high school, I saw glaring in front of me advanced maths, lab sciences and foreign languages that I didn't feel I could teach or tutor. We had a homeschooling co-op that covered some of these but not all.
Our local district allows for part-time enrollment. I saw this as the solution.
It was a mistake.
Both my older kids were in the system part-time. I watched their natural learning take a back seat to homework, boredom and lots of down time on TV when they weren't in school. Both became cynical about their peer group and found the kids at school not to their liking (on the whole).
Being on a sports team, in color guard, a part of the theater department... these have been the fringe benefits. But the jury is out on whether these were worth it.
My oldest is 17 and should be in his senior year. We visited a great college last summer - one he'd like to attend. But as the school year began (he needs one science to prepare for college otherwise he is done with high school), he got depressed and asked us to come home fully. He has and is not doing anything "school" related this year. He is working, acting, studying languages, playing games, and reading like a fiend. 
What I've noticed is that as the year has worn on, he's begun to revive. He's curious about everything again. And he's maturing. There is time for him to decide about college. He doesn't need to follow the pack.
Likewise, my daughter has come to the conclusion that she likes running her own education. She has clear goals and works to meet them, but she is unwilling to give up her life (e.g. time) to a school system.
They have taught me what I needed to know about unschooling. Jon and I had to take the leap of faith that in dialog with us (Jon and me) and in paying attention to who they are, we will support them in achieving their goals... in their own time.
Jon's teaching what he calls "brain-dead" freshmen has also confirmed what we already believed. Kids who spent their lives in the system aren't better prepared for college and in most cases lack the curiosity essential to a good education.
There is a lot more peace in our home today. I am not depending on them to fulfill a script. I am learning to know them as persons... What had been easier for me when they were young had to be re-learned as they became teens.
They are very cool people! I wish I had had the kind of self-awareness and freedom they have.
Does that answer your question?
Julie
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Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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Willa
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Julie, I could really relate to your story about putting your kids into classes part time. I think that's why we've stayed away from these things through the high school years even though during my more chaotic seasons, it seemed like it "ought" to be a good solution.
When my kids were going to Catholic school a looong time ago, one of the most frustrating parts to me was that others' schedules, others' goals, had to become ours. I HAD to get my oldest to school by 8 no matter what, I HAD to make sure he finished the worksheets he came home with even if I thought they were stupid.
It's not a lack of discipline, I don't think, because I don't mind getting the kids to baseball or music lessons at a certain time. It's the feeling of being pulled into an institutional model where the "rhythm" of learning is subordinated to an arbitrary, outside schedule where other things are valued besides the learning itself.
Thanks for keeping going with this thread, I am really interested in all the questions and answers!
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Willa
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Karen E.
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Lissa wrote:
What I've been pondering for the past many weeks is WHY I repeatedly make this shift, and whether it's a pattern I want to change in favor of one method or the other—or is there benefit in the shifting.
At some point every year I have resolved to step back, to wholly unschool. And then I'll read Charlotte Mason or the Sonlight catalog and think how much fun it sounds to do such-and-such.
I do wonder, though, if I will ever make up my mind once and for all. And I worry about what my inconsistency teaches the children. |
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Well, this is the Edmisten house. Exactly. 
I, too, swing like a pendulum, but lately have been wondering if I should choose a direction and stick with it.
We've always been a pretty relaxed homeschool, with lots of delight-directed learning, but I've also wavered about how much I can/should/want to impose on the kids. Some things have turned out well: I imposed cursive writing on Emily this year (I'd never pushed it before, and she didn't show any interest) and she complained at first, but now she's so glad she can do it and finds it "more fun" than printing. Other times, I've seen the things I've pushed kill their interest in learning. If I'd tried to extend a Mesopotamia unit I did through even one more project or book, I'd have had a revolt on my hands!
This year brought a fairly nice balance of non-negotiable requirements (some math, some handwriting, reading about saints and doing a mother-daughter Bible/virtues study) with the things the kids wanted to do. But, I still waver ... more structure? Math-U-See? Total unschooling?
Lissa, you asked what your "inconsistency" is teaching the children. I've asked myself this, too, but I keep coming back to this: my attempts to adapt our homeschooling to what's happening in our lives mirrors what happens in "real life with the Lord" (as opposed to "the school life we try to create.") That is, we're not in control, no matter how much we want to be or try to be. Life will repeatedly throw us curve balls to which we'll have to adapt. We can stop grasping for "the perfect educational experience" because it doesn't exist, just as the perfect life on earth doesn't exist. We tweak and adjust and change course as needed, just as our kids will have to do the rest of their lives, because that's the nature of life on this fallen earth.
I remember being asked by a friend, about 20 years ago, what my "five year plan" was. I laughed out loud. I had no idea what I'd be doing five years from that time. If I'd tried to guess, I know for certain my guess would not have included becoming a Christian!  My friend had a career plan, and plans to have children at a certain time, etc. Sadly, she ended up unable to have children ... Even the most loving, best-intentioned five-year-plans are subject to God's sovereignty. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make plans, educational or otherwise. But changing the plan isn't necessarily a bad or "inconsistent" thing. Usually it's the necessary thing.
The kids are asking for a computer turn, and I need to sign off. There are so many great posts here ... I hope I'll soon have time to get back to them!
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God bless,
Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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mumofsix
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I have only just caught up with the unschooling emails: what an interesting collection of perspectives! Thank-you to Lissa and the moderators for opening up this forum.
Why did I think it was interesting to define "unschooling"?  Well, I have never been part of any unschooling email loop, message board or chat room, so that probably makes me less sensitive to the potential for fruitless disagreement on that topic. On the other hand I have read quite a bit on unschooling: articles by Roland Meighan, John Taylor Gatto and Jan Fortune-Wood, books by John Holt and Gareth Lewis. Moreover, our secular home education support organisation to which I belonged for a while, Education Otherwise, has a predominantly unschooling feel. It interests me. Just lately I have finished reading a book by a Professor Alan Thomas called "Educating Children at Home". He recruited 100 families in Britain and Australia, his brief being to research what actually happens in home education. It makes very interesting reading.
It is difficult to do justice to the book via a short summary, but here goes. He found that by far the majority of the families adopted a policy of "informal learning", including many who started out trying to reproduce school at home. Even the minority who tried to stick to a more school-type, traditional model, in fact educated their children very differently than in schools.
Jane.
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mumofsix
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Something strange happened to my post so I decided to post it and then continue.
This is take 2 of take 2!
I will quote just one paragraph from Alan Thomas' book.
"By far the most important difference between more formal, structured learning at home and in school, though, is that learning at home becomes an interactive process rather than a series of tasks to be tackled. Parents repeatedly refer to being able to strike while the iron's hot, to deal with problems as they arise, not going on to something new until the prerequisite knowledge or concepts have been acquired. If children get stuck they do not proceed until the problem has been dealt with. In fact, any mistakes they make, rather than creating barriers to learning, simply inform their parents of their thinking processes. Errors, therefore, simply become steps on the route to enlightenment. Because they experience little failure, children become confident in their ability to learn. This is in marked contrast with the classroom where children are constantly being graded and measured against their peers, however subtly."
Alan Thomas cites research into classroom methods, which almost always point to a greater child-centredness as a way forward to a more efficient education. However theory and practice rarely meet, as classroom teachers of 30 simply cannot direct their teaching at individual children's needs other than fleetingly because of the overriding demands of classroom management. What home educators seem intuitively to have grasped, he found, was that child-centredness, responding to an individual child's own interests, difficulties, strengths, etc. was by far the easiest and swiftest way forward.
He does stress that "the culture of the home obviously has to be conducive to informal learning". Parents have to be actively committed to their children's education. He also believed that the parents had their own informal curriculum in mind and that this was important. They had, at the back of their minds, a general mental picture of what they wanted their children to achieve, e.g. literacy, numeracy, a good general knowledge, etc.
What fascinated me about this book (and made me jump in to the unschooling discussion!) is that this academic researcher set out to find out what actually happens in home education without any preconceived theories of how it ought to happen. He discovered that what happens is largely a process of informal learning which is highly productive.
Most parents in the study did at least some more formal, structured work, though fostered informal learning for the most part. A few tried to stick to formal methods, and a few adopted an entirely informal, child-led approach. The latter would, I presume, be what we would refer to as "radical unschoolers". I suppose the point I was clumsily groping towards was that many more of us could classify ourselves as unschoolers if unschooling is defined as child-led or child-centred. It may or may not involve activities reminiscent of school, but it will be an education tailored uniquely and intuitively to the child. It's not that I think labels are so important: quite the contrary. It is what happens in home education that interests me, and how to do it better.
Of-course, education is a two way thing. I think Elizabeth hit an important nail on its head when she said something to the effect that in a loving home, sometimes the learning will be child-led, and sometimes it will be adult-led. Maybe it is this interactive, sensitive dance between adult and child when the relationship is very close that enables learning to take place so effectively at home.
My conclusion? Maybe more of us are unschoolers than we think! I don't know how useful that is, but I thought it was interesting! Also, there is a practical corollary: if this type of informal learning is so productive, maybe some of us should be trying to facilitate it more.
Jane.
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Willa
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mumofsix wrote:
I think Elizabeth hit an important nail on its head when she said something to the effect that in a loving home, sometimes the learning will be child-led, and sometimes it will be adult-led. Maybe it is this interactive, sensitive dance between adult and child when the relationship is very close that enables learning to take place so effectively at home.
My conclusion? Maybe more of us are unschoolers than we think! I don't know how useful that is, but I thought it was interesting! Also, there is a practical corollary: if this type of informal learning is so productive, maybe some of us should be trying to facilitate it more.
Jane. |
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Dear Jane,
Yes, and Elizabeth also made the point, which I thought very interesting, that sometimes parents are learning from the children. This certainly correlates with my own experience that my children will become "experts" on something out of delight and then their enthusiasm and learning will benefit the rest of the family.
I thought it was interesting too -- that if unschooling means learning in a sort of organic way and letting the child play as active a role as possible, I could define our homeschool as "unschooling" too.
About informal learning being productive -- I remember reading this many years ago in a book about Ignatian classical education. It was astonishing to me and really affected how I thought about structure/non-structure. Since then I found the THomas Aquinas theories about "discovery" learning (inventio) being more effective and better than "taught" learning (disciplina). It was really interesting to me to find that this has been a recognized fact of human nature, perhaps up till fairly recent times, rather than just a 20th century innovation.
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Willa
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Cindy
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juliecinci wrote:
[QUOTE=Cindy]
Does that answer your question?
Julie |
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Yes, thank you, Julie. I am seeing that even more trust is involved as the kids get older. They don't progress on my (or anyone else's) timetable. Allowing them to grow into who they are, at their pace, and knowing that God really has a strong interest and hand in this makes a tremendous difference. Your post (and others) has helped me see this, as I go through it myself self in real time here at home.
Sometimes it is hard to get perspective when you are experiencing something, especially for the first time. In my case, watching my first born become 15 this summer...
I found Suzie Andres's book helpful, too, in letting go.. but not just letting go, but knowing that God is the safety net and an pro-active one at that.
From Homeschooling with Gentleness,
Susie Andres writes of two myths in homeschooling that she struggles with- pg 80
"My two false principles are:
1. I think it all (my son's education, happieness, salvation) depends on me
2. I think I have to (and my son has to ) acheive great things to please the world and more importantly, to please God."
Thanks for your posts, Julie-- your insights have really given me a lot to ponder and a lot of comfort as I see similar things here.
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Cindy in Texas
It Is About The Journey
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Karen E.
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WJFR wrote:
About informal learning being productive -- I remember reading this many years ago in a book about Ignatian classical education. It was astonishing to me and really affected how I thought about structure/non-structure. Since then I found the THomas Aquinas theories about "discovery" learning (inventio) being more effective and better than "taught" learning (disciplina). It was really interesting to me to find that this has been a recognized fact of human nature, perhaps up till fairly recent times, rather than just a 20th century innovation.
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This is what fascinates me about the ways in which my children learn. Their informal/discovery learning has always been more complete, and more long-lasting than the formal/disciplina learning.
When I recall my school experiences, what strikes me the most is that I did very well, got A's throughout school, but later could hardly remember much of what I learned -- until it became important to me to know it. For example, much of what I learned about history went through me like a sieve post-test. But, the reading I have done on my own, as an adult, in the areas of history that interest me, has stayed with me. As an adult, I am invested in what I learn now. I "take ownership" of it, to use a contemporary term, because it has value to me, either in my personal or spiritual growth, or as a mother, or as a homeschooler.
Learning that is forced will certainly happen. Anyone can "teach to the test" and most people can memorize enough to pass the test and get a good grade. But, if one is not invested in what one is learning, it becomes nothing more than a meaningless dance between teacher and student, proving that each is capable of playing her role. I'd much rather have the sensitive dance Jane described, between mother/child, teacher/student -- the dance that enables real learning to take place.
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Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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Willa
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juliecinci wrote:
I discovered Charlotte Mason after that and found her liberating too! I loved the areas of emphasis in her education and found myself pursuing those areas for myself which bled directly over into my family.
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I was just rereading this thread and found this comment. So would you unschoolers say that part of a unschooling parent's job description is internalizing a sense of what is "true, good, beautiful" and in that way, being an influence on one's children informally?
For example, I know that if I watched soap operas and ate chips all day, I'd probably have fat kids with dull minds. But I have seen that since DH and I are active in learning ourselves -- computer, reading, writing -- our kids have picked up those interests in different ways and that this has been an environmental advantage where we worked, not to "improve" our children but rather because WE think those things are important and worth doing. I suppose it's similar to character formation where a child learns more from how parents practice than how they preach.
SO I guess there's a big place for "purifying the source" as Flannery O'Connor says, talking about becoming a better Catholic person in order to be a better Catholic writer. If the parents try to live and learn well, then the kids pick up on that to some extent and follow?
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Willa
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momwise
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I decided to sit out the rest of this discussion (almost  ) so that I could read the posts and let the inspiration sink in. This is what I thought of when I came to the end of the thread:
I'm not that well-read in the area of education but from your posts and experience I gleaned that there is a natural (God-given) way that humans are educated out in the world. Ideally, it would include curiousity, inquiry, observation, practice, etc.etc.
We want this type of education so we extend it (partly through CM's practices)into the home and prepare the children to take it into the world. It seems to be a combination of knowledge going from the parents, God and the world to the child, expression of what the family learns(this is more than writing; it includes evangelization and Works of Mercy and all the Church's ways of expressing Herself) and delighting together in the family, the "first school," in God's revelation, His designs, His Mercy.
If it's true education, the child will eventually have to test it, own it and develop it for himself.
Like Willa said, if the parents' are learning well, the children will follow. This is all happening as a fountain of Love from the Saviour through the Sacrament of Matrimony.
To me, trying to stuff all that into the label "unschooling" is like trying to stick the sleeping bag in it's case. It's possible (we did it once or twice and then we bought bungy cords) but it sure take a lot of work! 
Come Holy Spirit!
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Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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Erica Sanchez
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momwise wrote:
| To me, trying to stuff all that into the label "unschooling" is like trying to stick the sleeping bag in it's case. |
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This is how I feel. The problem I have is like Leonie said - labeling. I've always felt that all the beautiful women on this board never fell exactly into one homeschooling category or another. I'm tying to read through the posts - there are so many beautiful thoughts and insights - but I feel like I'm not totally getting it.....
No matter what kind of homeschooler we try to call ourselves, it is very, very clear that we deeply love our children, our faith and our decisions to homeschool in the first place!! For me, to witness how amazingly in touch we are with our children, regardless of homeschooling style, is fantastic.
It has made me think about what kind of homeschooler I am. Am I an "unschooler", classical educator, "pure" CMer, etc., etc., etc? Well, I'm all of these things and none of these things! Just depends on the day! Do I need to put myself into one category? I don't want to and it would never be truly accurate.
I think that is why I've enjoyed this board so much - there are so many different ideas, resources, links, styles, situations.......
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Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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ladybugs
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Erica Sanchez wrote:
momwise wrote:
| To me, trying to stuff all that into the label "unschooling" is like trying to stick the sleeping bag in it's case. |
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This is how I feel. The problem I have is like Leonie said - labeling. I've always felt that all the beautiful women on this board never fell exactly into one homeschooling category or another. I'm tying to read through the posts - there are so many beautiful thoughts and insights - but I feel like I'm not totally getting it.....
No matter what kind of homeschooler we try to call ourselves, it is very, very clear that we deeply love our children, our faith and our decisions to homeschool in the first place!! For me, to witness how amazingly in touch we are with our children, regardless of homeschooling style, is fantastic.
It has made me think about what kind of homeschooler I am. Am I an "unschooler", classical educator, "pure" CMer, etc., etc., etc? Well, I'm all of these things and none of these things! Just depends on the day! Do I need to put myself into one category? I don't want to and it would never be truly accurate.
I think that is why I've enjoyed this board so much - there are so many different ideas, resources, links, styles, situations.......
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Hi Erica!
I would agree with you...the only way I can think of labels being useful is that they help us define and understand. I would say everyone's situation is different and everyone's homeschool or "unschool" is different...we sure could make a great Venn diagram! Hi Cindy!
For me, and I am asked, unschooling best defines our approach to learning. In a culture used to soundbites this "fits" us the best. To me, however, the definition of unschooling allows us the freedom to use whatever method necessary to help our children and ourselves and from what you posted, I would think that's what you're saying, too. When I first joined the CCM email loop, I had a 5, 4, 2 and 1 year old. I had no sleep and very little support. It was through the richness of the pioneers who had had experiences before me, plus a very dear friend of mine who encouraged me to READ! READ!! READ!!!! to my children. I did not grow up in a household that read so as sad as this sounds, the concept was foreign. But by the grace of the Holy Spirit, I listened to them and read to my children and then I read some more. I can't imagine now a life not reading to my and with my children.
So the point I am trying to make is that talking about the merits of unschooling I don't think that anyone is saying that it is a better way of educating for all families. It is simply another way. Depending on one's life, it might help someone find comfort in the approach. For me, that was what the CCM loop did...I read to my children and was amazed at the results. Through those discussions and examples, I found myself open to trying more things because what I really wanted in my home was an atmosphere of wonder and discovery... so perhaps through this discussion someone might see another method that might work for their family.
I really think we're all trying to do the same thing but the method varies and each family knows their situation best...
Love and God Bless,
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Love and God Bless,
Maria P
My etsy store - all proceeds go to help my fencing daughters!
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cathhomeschool
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I’m slowly working through this thread and have really been giving this ‘unschooling’ thing a lot of thought. I don’t consider myself an unschooler, but desparately want to be. I love Julie’s comments on unschooling being more of an attitude, a listening to and respect for the child’s interests – a freedom to chuck the unit or plan if it doesn’t spark interest. We focus on reading living books and beautiful picture books. We follow trails that the kids do enjoy at least somewhat. For me the clue that schooling is not what it *should* be IMO (delightful and motivating, even when it requires hard work) is that the kids dread “doing school.” Their gut reaction to my ideas is usually “Ugh!” not “Wow, how exciting! Yes, let’s learn about that!” Sometimes, the “Ugh!” turns into pleasure once we begin, but still, we almost always begin with an “Ugh!” I find this to be very demoralizing (form me) and mildly annoying too.
I’d like to give some concrete examples and ask for “What would you have done?” advice. We just finished a unit on Ukrainian Easter Eggs. The boys read some picture books and looked at the geography/landscape of Ukraine. We talked about Chernobyl and they looked at current pictures of the area, they watched travel and dance videos, they learned about and made Ukrainian eggs (pysanky), the painted wooden eggs and colored pictures of eggs… so on. Anyway, the only parts that I think they really enjoyed and were excited about were the coloring and painting of eggs and the making of pysanky – the actual “hands on” stuff. They were briefly interested in the geography, but at least one of them probably wouldn’t have colored/labeled a map if I had made it optional. I don’t think that we would have studied Chernobyl and nuclear power, and my 9yo would probably not have read any of the picture books. So, in an unschooling spirit, should I have chucked all of these aspects that were uninteresting to them? My gut says ‘yes,’ and it certainly would have made the time more enjoyable for all of us…
WJFR wrote:
| If a child follows his interest he ends up reading way beyond his "grade level" and struggling to understand, because he cares about what he is reading. Then those comprehension skills transfer over to other areas. As a parent, you can introduce things and build on what "lights a fire". |
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What if the child’s reading interests are complete twaddle? My 9yo is not a strong reader. I don’t think that he’s “below grade level,” just not as strong a reader and as good a speller/pronouncer of words as his older brother. He reads some of the picture books that I leave lying around, but I think that if I gave him free reign in the reading department, he’d run to the library and get every Star Wars book there and read nothing else. Total twaddle! My 11yo would also drop all of the excellent reads (9yo LOVES to read) in order to devour Star Wars twaddle too. (They are very one-track-minded children. Always have been. The “track” for several years now has been more and more Star Wars centric.) So do I just let them read only what they’d like and read-aloud other great books, hoping that they’ll get hooked? They do enjoy read alouds now, as well as tree climbing, exploring, birds of prey, etc, but I fear that if I allow Star Wars books into the house, they’d drop all else. Do I allow the books anyway and see how it goes since it’s definitely the direction where their interests lie? Or do I nurture and focus on their other interests, ignoring Star Wars as a potential “school subject?”
Sorry for the looong post. Just trying to work things out and searching for answers. The picture you all paint of unschooling is so lovely! I would love to let the boys direct our learning. I’m just sure it would be all Star Wars if they had their way. (An example: We made traditional pysanky during our Ukrainian study – geometric patterns and stuff. The boys wanted to make only Star Wars designs on the pysanky. I guess I should have said, “Sure!” ? *sigh* I think that the answer is “Yes.”)
Help ladies! Please answer my questions before I answer them all myself! (I think I'm afraid of coming to the wrong conclusion without guidance for the more experienced!)
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: May 05 2005 at 9:13am | IP Logged
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Leonie wrote:
| For example , one son who is gifted in the arts and with writing finds abstract maths HARD ( and boring! oh, no!).The beauty of unschooling has meant that he hasn't had years of being made to fit into a box, but has had time spent on formal maths and even more time devoted to developing his gifts and passion. |
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So what if the child has NO interest in pursuing math (like my 11yo)? Does that mean that you don't bother teaching it or making them go through a math curriculum? I guess that kind of scares me! (My degree is in engineering, which may have a lot to do with my fear!) I was planning on teaching math w/o a curriculum next year anyway, since it's one of my strengths. Do I just focus on real life math (cooking, shopping) and math stories (he loves to read) for a while? I don't think that he'll pick up multiplying and dividing mixed numbers and other such concepts this way, but maybe he won't need them anyway? I just have a hard time visualizing *not knowing* these kind of things, but maybe it's because science and math (and not language arts) is more my gift. He wants to go to college, so do I just wait until high school to teach these things? Help! Questions, questions... 
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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mumofsix
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| Posted: May 05 2005 at 9:13am | IP Logged
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Janette, I am sure more experienced people will be along to answer your query, but a thought occurred to me: why not have a Star Wars unit study for a few weeks? As long as Star Wars remain forbidden fruit, it will remain attractive, perhaps excessively so. If you were to study it in depth, their need for this might be assuaged sufficiently to move on to something else. You could borrow a lot of the books, movies, etc. from the public library, thereby avoiding importing it all permanently. You could encourage some good creative writing, lots of crafts (making rockets etc - even making a real one, and that would be science)and the older one at least might be interested in discussing the gnosticism debate over Star Wars (see Michael O'Brien's book on children's literature). Just a thought. If after all that they remained obsessed with Star Wars I personally would be inclined to write a sequel killing them all off and that would be the next read aloud, but that wouldn't be "unschooling" ...
Jane.
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mumofsix
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| Posted: May 05 2005 at 9:33am | IP Logged
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Another thought: maybe analyse what it is about Star Wars that attracts them? Is it the fighting, battles, heroism, the vastness of outer space, the excitement of other worlds? This could lead to some relevant strewing. I remember that in the midst of my son's Star Wars phase I managed to interest him in Homer. He especially loved the Iliad: wars, battles, heroes, it was all there. If war, mayhem and derring do are their current loves, Pysanky eggs may just not cut the mustard!
Maybe they would be interested in cosmology, space travel, astronomy, or in military history: the Crusades, World War II, etc. You could take clues from their Star Wars love to what other things they may like.
Jane.
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: May 05 2005 at 9:37am | IP Logged
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Janette,
If you haven't yet, check out the unschooling and commitment discussion and look for Julie's post about taking interests to affinities. She talks about moving an interest in Jackie Chan movies to an affinity. I'm at about the same place you are with unschooling, so I certainly can't offer any real advice, but I think Julie's post might help give you some ideas for how to use their interest to help them grow.
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juliecinci
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| Posted: May 05 2005 at 9:49am | IP Logged
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Star Wars, math and other squishy questions....
One of the issues I had to face first was that I have put the world in a hierarchy of what is "real" education and what isn't. I have subscribed to CM's ideas about offering your children a steady diet of living books, beautiful ideas and non-twaddle activities.
What I discovered, however, is that what is a beautiful idea to me might not yet be for a 6 yr old or a 15 yr old. Faulkner says that we ought to read everything: trash, ad copy, high literature, fiction, non and more. By becoming acquainted with all kinds of writing, we develop discernment for what makes good writing (and we learn from it too).
So I've tried to allow myself to let my kids determine what they care about and then to follow that with as much passion as we can. To me, Star Wars would not be twaddle anyway, but my achilles heel was computer/video gaming.
For instance, I have two kids who are especially committed X Box/computer game players. I had to stop seeing it as mere entertainment for them. These were not just diversions, these were core sources of learning for them.
My 10 year old has yet to do a formal math program. I wanted to be sure he knew his multiplication tables this year (mother panic mode) and pulled out Math-it to check him. He was only spotty on a couple of the times tables and was able to do the whole course in less than a week. (He was willing to do it for me, not his choice, but I didn't impose it either.)
He continues to do all kinds of math in his head... all from calculating percentages of "life" he has left in a game, to comparing his scores to other scores, to estimating how much whatever he needs to buy equipment... or whatever (I'm suddenly out of my depth). All of his math (I do mean all) comes from gaming.
He has learned mythology, history, technology, has learned basic writing skills and typing all through playing games online hours a day, too. I do mean hours.
He also listens to all read alouds, memorizes poetry for fun, does copywork (one sentence at a time), takes care of his dog, plays lacrosse, watches TV, plays Settleers of Catan and other card games, and watches and studies birds. He reads magazines, field guides and online sites. Not interested in novels too much though he read two last year. Somehow, computer gaming has been the conduit of a rich life for him, even though I used to restrict him to 30 minutes a day. During those years, he mostly walked around the house saying how bored he was. He never "developed other interests" despite all my wonderful ideas.
More about math:
I am not a math person at all. Neither is my literary husband. My oldest daughter was significantly "behind" at age 13. I thought she was math LD. She never did a formal program. She did Miquon for several years and then Keys To, but it was always a struggle. When she began algebra I at the high school, she floundered. We pulled her out. We hired a tutor for algebra I six months later and in less than two years, she is done with algebra I, geometry and is 1/4 of the way in to algebra II. She is now ahead of her peers. Last week the tutor told me that she is a math whiz - straight A. My daughter? No way.
My daughter has mostly read and written her whole life. She's literary.
Gotta go be with the kids. But thought I'd throw those specifics out for some who asked.
Julie
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Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: May 05 2005 at 9:52am | IP Logged
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mumofsix wrote:
Of-course, education is a two way thing. I think Elizabeth hit an important nail on its head when she said something to the effect that in a loving home, sometimes the learning will be child-led, and sometimes it will be adult-led. Maybe it is this interactive, sensitive dance between adult and child when the relationship is very close that enables learning to take place so effectively at home.
... Also, there is a practical corollary: if this type of informal learning is so productive, maybe some of us should be trying to facilitate it more. |
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I think that if I can view our homeschool in this way, the kids would enjoy 'school' more, I would enjoy it more, and it would be a sort of crutch for me. The idea that sometimes schooling will be adult-led and sometimes child-led is reassuring to me. I *want* to encourage the child-led, but still have a bit of "fear factor" watering down my resolve. Lissa, maybe the reason that you and others here are pondering taking that next step -- always living at low-tide, as you upt it (I love your analogy!), is that you've regularly experienced that ebb and flow. I don't feel that we have. The kids are usually on my boat, and when they're not I tend to view it as a "break," not as an unschooling time. I realize that they are always learning, but during our "breaks" I don't necessarily feel that they are learning more than during our "high-tide" outings. Still, as I've mentioned before, they don't always enjoy high tide. I guess the concept of ebb and flow is just the crutch I need right now. Keenly *watching* them more and jotting down my observations (as others mentioned) during low-tide, while abandoning ship during unhappy high-tide excursions is a "safe" first step for me. I think that by combining these two practices, the kids really will enjoy schooling more and will learn more. You know, when they were little, I asked them what they enjoyed about "school" and worked on changing what they didn't enjoy. Not sure why or when I stopped doing that, but thanks to you ladies I've started asking again. Julie's posts have especially helped me in this regard.
Lissa, I think that clipping great quotes and "sticking" them in a thread at the top of the forum is a great idea! I've been meaning to print out the posts in this forum and highlight, highlight, highlight all of the things that I want to keep at the front of my brain. I think that the pages would end up more yellow than white!
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: May 05 2005 at 10:13am | IP Logged
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mumofsix wrote:
| why not have a Star Wars unit study for a few weeks? As long as Star Wars remain forbidden fruit, it will remain attractive, perhaps excessively so. |
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What a great idea, Jane! And it might actually work... that is, if my children survived the heart attacks that would surely ensue after hearing such a statement come from my mouth!
I love your ideas! It never occurred to me that they really could learn something from Star Wars. I especially like the O'Brien suggestion.
mumofsix wrote:
| If after all that they remained obsessed with Star Wars I personally would be inclined to write a sequel killing them all off and that would be the next read aloud, but that wouldn't be "unschooling" ... |
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Unschooling, take 2 (The Tough Questions)
