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Leonie
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I am not sure if this topic fits here or in Philosophy of Edcuation..or even in High School, since all my kids are aged thirteen and up. 
I have been thinking about the quote below, from Plato. So much so, that I even blogged about it. I dither a little on this topic ..would like to hear what you think, too!
Because a freeman ought not to be a slave in the acquisition of knowledge of any kind. Bodily exercise, when compulsory, does no harm to the body; but knowledge which is acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind
What role does compulsion have in education, in unschooling? By compulsion, I mean making/asking kids do things – yes, chores and habits and maybe, yes, some Maths or Latin or religion reading. 
Will this compulsion mean that the knowledge will not stick, the habit will not stick, because a child, a teen, is responding to an external force. Would it be better to wait for internal motivation? Or can we encourage self discipline and the acquisition of virtues and introduce new areas of interest when we make our kids do things, things like a Kumon Maths booklet three times a week?
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Basia
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Hi Leonie,
I haven't had a chance to read your blog post, but I wanted to share my initial thoughts. I really think that there has to be a degree of compulsion, or initial exposure to a topic or subject as I like to think of it. This may happen through life, strewing, or some formal work assigned by a parent. Also, interest in something might not develop initially as there might be a steep learning curve. Latin or say piano is not something that can be learned easily or overnight. However, through encouragement a person might continue the learning process and then as knowledge or a skill increases, satisfaction increases and self motivation to keep going develops.Then there are those skills which we all need in life such as reading and maths. For some, those skills are learned under compulsion and the person retains that knowledge even if they don't like the subject or topic. So, I think that what the sentence "knowledge which is acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind" really means is that the person will not develop an interest in the topic or a love of it. Perhaps what we need to keep in mind is that certain things need to be learned even if there is a form of compulsion, but other things can be left to be discovered and then learned if there is intrinsic motivation.
Basia
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lapazfarm
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Leonie, I have been pondering the same thing since I read your blog post a few days ago. It really strikes at the heart of our educational philosophy, doesn't it? I am going to think it over some more and then hopefully come back here with some thoughts.
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Martha
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I can't cope with either or decisions and labels.
I just can't sqeeze my round self into the teeny squares. 
I think many things at times need to be a combination?
For example, I've had dc that hated to learn to read, no matter how fun and tailored I made it. But once they learned it - they loved to read. They had to be compelled to learn it though.
My oldest son likes to build things, but hates math. Well you can only get so far in building without math! So I compell him to progress in math so he can pursue his interest in building.
I don't know if this has a point...
I just ...
dislike choose this square or that square type of decisions these days. 
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Willa
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I think "compulsion" means something different than just asking someone to do something. It implies using fear or other unworthy motives to induce behavior that you want. Charlotte Mason thought playing on greed could be a kind of compulsion, too.
I just read this section from Quintilian -- it's talking about physical punishment in schools, but I think the principles apply -- the problem with compulsion is that it is force (used to induce fear) and brings out the worst qualities in a person rather than the best. (Please note that I'm NOT raising a question about whether corporal punishment is OK or not, because this quote isn't about home discipline, rather about whipping in schools to induce learning behavior).
Quote:
| But that boys should suffer corporal punishment, though it be a received custom, and Chrysippus makes no objection to it, I by no means approve; first, because it is a disgrace and a punishment for slaves, and in reality (as will be evident if you imagine the age changed) an affront; secondly, because, if a boy's disposition be so abject as not to be amended by reproof, he will be hardened, like the worst of slaves, even to stripes; and lastly, because, if one who regularly exacts his tasks be with him, there will not be the least need of any such chastisement. 15. At present, the negligence of paedagogi seems to be made amends for in such a way that boys are not obliged to do what is right, but are punished whenever they have not done it. Besides, after you have coerced a boy with stripes, how will you treat him when he becomes a young man, to whom such terror cannot be held out, and by whom more difficult studies must be pursued? |
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I used to torment myself with questions of whether I was "compelling" my children when I assigned them this or that. I don't worry quite so much about it now. I try to avoid requiring things at the price of severe penalties. I don't want my children to obey in a servile, cringing way.
But I do want them to do what's right, and if I don't show them what's right (either by modelling, or by encouraging or expecting or whatever -- there are lots of ways to demonstrate the right) -- then am I not withholding important information from them?
I do think that verbal prompts can become excessive quickly, many children become trained quickly to ignore them -- and that's why I tend to rely more on other ways to impart understanding of the right way -- reading stories, modelling by example,fostering habits, etc.
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lapazfarm
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I may be off here, but I have a little different interpretation of this point:
" but knowledge which is acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind "
Note the order of the words.Plato is saying that knowledge acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind, not that the mind obtains no hold on the knowledge.I don't think this is just about gaining knowledge.
It isn't that we cannot learn through compulsion, it's just that it won't be inspiring--it won't grab ahold of our minds and cause us to want more. We may learn it through compulsion, but the subject will not take hold of us, capture our imagination, light a fire, or whatever analogy you want to use. It will simply be learned and at best, tolerated. And therefore we will never be able to "find the natural bent."
Like Willa, I also think that by compulsion Plato means physical force or fear,since he makes the slave vs freeman analogy.
I think he is saying something along the line of that if we smack the hands with a ruler at every misspelled word, we may create good spellers, but never a lover of spelling.
I don't think there is anything wrong with asking our children to learn something. Not at all. And I see strewing as a way of appealing to the child's natural curiosity and not compulsion at all.
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ALmom
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IF you smack the hand when someone misspells words, aren't you just as likely to set up a block to learning due to the fear and humiliation induced? I think you could expand this to any number of tactics that involve ridicule, shouting, physical punishment, etc. I don't think at all that it hurts to give a child some really complicated problems that are impossible to do without math facts and let them suffer the consequences of not being willing to put the effort into learning them. Does that count as compulsion I also see no problem with mandating that we do some math today and if you dilly dally because you just want to worm out of it, you miss out on the water fight the rest of us have at the end of the day. Is that compulsion?
I do think there must be some requirements, letting natural consequences teach, etc. But I can see where if what is meant by compulsion is public humiliation, there is great harm. Some children could shake it off, become stubborn just to get back and learn despite the humiliation - but the humiliation itself really wouldn't have helped. I doubt your phlegmatic or melancholic would get very far - and would be more likely to shut down entirely. I tutored a whole lot of folks in college who couldn't learn math simply due to the fear. Somehow they had been made to feel dumb in school, and they shut down. It took a while of gentle leading to help them over the fear to discover that they really were capable and could become good at it.
Just my 2 cents. I'm with Martha. We never fit into any neat categories around here anyways!
Janet
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Sarah M
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lapazfarm wrote:
| I think he is saying something along the line of that if we smack the hands with a ruler at every misspelled word, we may create good spellers, but never a lover of spelling. |
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Right- so then we must ask ourselves: what is the point of learning the skill at all? If we end up with a child who spells well, but never writes (spells) for pleasure, what good is that? Or if a child reads well, but never reads except when he is forced to, what good is that? I think there probably needs to be a balance whenever children are required to learn something. Otherwise, education becomes servile, as Willa so aptly describes in her recent post on the object of education.
Of course, then there's the issue of whether or not to require a child to continue a certain work they enjoy when it gets difficult. For example, if my child loves playing the piano, but begins to shrug it off when it gets more difficult, should I "force" her to continue practicing? Or will that result in a child who plays well but never plays for pleasure?
I don't know.
I've been thinking about this a lot lately- how is a balance properly struck?
Very interesting conversation, Leonie.
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Willa
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ALmom wrote:
| IF you smack the hand when someone misspells words, aren't you just as likely to set up a block to learning due to the fear and humiliation induced? I think you could expand this to any number of tactics that involve ridicule, shouting, physical punishment, etc. |
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Yes, Thomas Aquinas says that strong negative emotion makes it more difficult to learn.
And Augustine said:
Quote:
To this end I was sent to school to get learning, the value of which I knew not -- wretch that I was. Yet if I was slow to learn, I was flogged. For this was deemed praiseworthy by our forefathers and many had passed before us in the same course, and thus had built up the precedent for the sorrowful road on which we too were compelled to travel, multiplying labor and sorrow upon the sons of Adam....
I believe that Virgil would have the same effect on Greek boys as Homer did on me if they were forced to learn him. For the tedium of learning a foreign language mingled gall into the sweetness of those Grecian myths. For I did not understand a word of the language, and yet I was driven with threats and cruel punishments to learn it. There was also a time when, as an infant, I knew no Latin; but this I acquired without any fear or tormenting, but merely by being alert to the blandishments of my nurses, the jests of those who smiled on me, and the sportiveness of those who toyed with me. I learned all this, indeed, without being urged by any pressure of punishment, for my own heart urged me to bring forth its own fashioning, which I could not do except by learning words: not from those who taught me but those who talked to me, into whose ears I could pour forth whatever I could fashion. From this it is sufficiently clear that a free curiosity is more effective in learning than a discipline based on fear.
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Willa
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lapazfarm
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ALmom wrote:
IF you smack the hand when someone misspells words, aren't you just as likely to set up a block to learning due to the fear and humiliation induced? I think you could expand this to any number of tactics that involve ridicule, shouting, physical punishment, etc.
Janet |
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I absolutely agree. None of these tactics have any place in modern society.
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Elena
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When I was in high school, it was compulsory that I take a typing course. I did not want to. I tried to sing up for the one semester class, but it was full and I ended up taking typing 1 for a full year - and loved it! Took typing 2 the next year and now I type all the time for my job and for pleasure. So sometimes a little compulsion is a good thing!
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stellamaris
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Sarah M wrote:
| Of course, then there's the issue of whether or not to require a child to continue a certain work they enjoy when it gets difficult. For example, if my child loves playing the piano, but begins to shrug it off when it gets more difficult, should I "force" her to continue practicing? Or will that result in a child who plays well but never plays for pleasure? |
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It seems to me that it is virtue to be able to do those tasks in life that one does not particularly enjoy. So I see the "required" habits and subjects as one way to practice a certain amount of self-denial and to acquire not only knowledge but the virtues of self-discipline, perseverance, and fortitude that are so necessary regardless of one's vocation in life. I think it is a mistake to try to cater to a child's "loves" too much. It is great to support their interests and allow time for them to pursue their "loves", but that can't be their whole experience. As far as compulsion goes, I do think Plato was referring to forced (probably physical) compulsion which was so common in his day. His statement was offering a "balance" in the opposite direction. In our culture, children (and adults, too!) are excessively catered to and encouraged to indulge themselves, so our "balance" needs to include some opportunities for duty rather than pleasure.
As far as piano, my dd's each reached a point in time when they did not want to continue with piano instruction. I told them I wanted them to continue on one more year, and then if they still wanted to, they could quit. They both continued on several more years after that and as a result they play beautifully and truly love to play. Joy is acquired by the virtue of perseverance; perseverance is acquired by sacrificing joy. Ah...if a man wants to gain his life, he must first lose it.
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Birdie
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Leonie,
I think Plato was making an observation not a rule. It seems to me children who are required to learn make a habit of it and that's good. Some things the children are required to do/learn will become an interest and those things will "stick" like Plato suggests. I think he is just saying the things I was interested in were the things that I learned. So true.
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Sarah M
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stellamaris wrote:
It seems to me that it is virtue to be able to do those tasks in life that one does not particularly enjoy. So I see the "required" habits and subjects as one way to practice a certain amount of self-denial and to acquire not only knowledge but the virtues of self-discipline, perseverance, and fortitude that are so necessary regardless of one's vocation in life. I think it is a mistake to try to cater to a child's "loves" too much. It is great to support their interests and allow time for them to pursue their "loves", but that can't be their whole experience. As far as compulsion goes, I do think Plato was referring to forced (probably physical) compulsion which was so common in his day. His statement was offering a "balance" in the opposite direction. In our culture, children (and adults, too!) are excessively catered to and encouraged to indulge themselves, so our "balance" needs to include some opportunities for duty rather than pleasure.
As far as piano, my dd's each reached a point in time when they did not want to continue with piano instruction. I told them I wanted them to continue on one more year, and then if they still wanted to, they could quit. They both continued on several more years after that and as a result they play beautifully and truly love to play. Joy is acquired by the virtue of perseverance; perseverance is acquired by sacrificing joy. Ah...if a man wants to gain his life, he must first lose it. |
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Very well put, Caroline. :) I agree!
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SeaStar
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I think there is a real difference between giving something a fair shot before saying you really don't like it and just saying right away you don't like it.
And a difference again between normal lags in interest with a subject (such as piano) and true dislike/wish to stop.
Lags can be worked through. And some things you do just have to learn (like math and reading).
One thing I struggle with is the college curriculum that kids are required to take (and pay big bucks for). I was a science major and forced to take sociology. I *hated* it. There was just no interest for me there, and yet three days a week I had to sit in class and "learn". It didn't feel much like learning to me.
That whole experience hovers in my mind whenever I consider what to teach my kids: is this something that is strictly necessary, even if if they don't like it? Is this a math or a sociology?
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Sarah M
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I've been thinking about this thread a lot.
I agree that children need to learn self-denial. It makes sense that they (and all people, actually) need to practice living out the virtues of self-discipline, fortitude, and perseverance. I guess what I question is whether this must be done in the academic/school arena.
Chores, for example. They must be done for the good of the family My 5yo strongly dislikes making her bed. All of my kids don't enjoy long car rides, getting vaccines, or getting their hair combed. There is certainly an overall feel of *duty over pleasure* in this regard. They learn that there are some things they must do (and many must be done daily) that they do not enjoy- but they must be done cheerfully anyway.
I wonder if compulsion can be left out of the learning atmosphere. If my goal is for my children to love learning, then forced learning may be counterproductive. If I can offer my children experiences to live out virtue in self-denial in other areas of life, perhaps I can leave school/learning as a delight.
I follow my children's lead/interests much more than *most* homeschoolers, I think. And I require very little "academic work" of one sort or another. So their education thus far (and they are all little, so I see this shifting as they grow) has not really been compulsory at all. Yet I find that they have plenty of opportunities in other aspects of life to practice duty above pleasure - to grow in virtue.
I do think that there is a point in, like Caroline's example above, saying something along the lines of "I know you aren't enjoying piano right now, dear, but I would like you to continue to play for the rest of the school year. Then, if you still feel this way, you can stop." That seems more like *collaboration* than *compulsion.* It seems to speak more to bonding and perseverance than heavy-handed forced learning.
And I love what you said, Caroline:
"Joy is acquired by the virtue of perseverance; perseverance is acquired by sacrificing joy."
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Meredith
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Sarah M wrote:
I wonder if compulsion can be left out of the learning atmosphere. If my goal is for my children to love learning, then forced learning may be counterproductive. If I can offer my children experiences to live out virtue in self-denial in other areas of life, perhaps I can leave school/learning as a delight.
I follow my children's lead/interests much more than *most* homeschoolers, I think. And I require very little "academic work" of one sort or another. So their education thus far (and they are all little, so I see this shifting as they grow) has not really been compulsory at all. Yet I find that they have plenty of opportunities in other aspects of life to practice duty above pleasure - to grow in virtue. |
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Yes!! And I do think you will find this changes quite a bit when they are all older, but not in the sense that it has to be forced There are subtle ways of encouraging your children to do things they need to do without making it a capital case. And when there is resistance, then the virtues (that have hopefully been forming all along) will come in to play and they will see it as something they need to do to get from point A to point B, be it college, a special vocation or on to marriage and family life.
For those of you who have children that have gone all the way through home schooling, or at least through most of high school, how has this worked for you??
Great discussion ladies, thanks for bringing it up Leonie 
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lapazfarm
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Meredith wrote:
Sarah M wrote:
I wonder if compulsion can be left out of the learning atmosphere. If my goal is for my children to love learning, then forced learning may be counterproductive. If I can offer my children experiences to live out virtue in self-denial in other areas of life, perhaps I can leave school/learning as a delight.
I follow my children's lead/interests much more than *most* homeschoolers, I think. And I require very little "academic work" of one sort or another. So their education thus far (and they are all little, so I see this shifting as they grow) has not really been compulsory at all. Yet I find that they have plenty of opportunities in other aspects of life to practice duty above pleasure - to grow in virtue. |
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Yes!! And I do think you will find this changes quite a bit when they are all older, but not in the sense that it has to be forced There are subtle ways of encouraging your children to do things they need to do without making it a capital case. And when there is resistance, then the virtues (that have hopefully been forming all along) will come in to play and they will see it as something they need to do to get from point A to point B, be it college, a special vocation or on to marriage and family life.
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Absolutely agreeing here. I think compulsion can indeed be left out of learning. That is really what unschooling is all about.(I know not everyone agrees, but we are free to disagree sometimes and that's ok.)
Like Sarah said, the virtues can be learned in other areas-through chores, etc.
I'll use my teenage son as an example: he is not compelled by me to learn anything, yet he does learn,in fact he loves to learn. And he is virtuous as well, always willing to sacrifice to help others, doing his chores without being asked, etc.(not that he is perfect, of course.) I'm not saying that a compulsion-free education is the only right way, I'm just saying that it is possible and good results happen, even with older kids.
So what about math? In reality he does not like it much at all. But he does it because he knows he needs to.Every once in a while I need to remind him of this, but I do not compel him to do it.He knows his life in the future will be harder if he doesn't get the math done now.So he does it.His own choice.
As a further example, last night I got a surprise email from my son (he is in NC visiting family) reminding me of the things he said he would like to study this year (Shakespeare, the renaissance, DaVinci, Marine Biology, Human anatomy, water rescue techniques, Algebra II, sailing, One Year Adventure Novel). He wanted me to start gathering resources and planning a course of study for him! What a pleasant and unexpected reminder that this unschooling stuff really can work, even at the high school level.
And again, I am not in any way saying it is the only way or even the best way. I'm just saying that it can work.
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insegnante
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Willa wrote:
Yes, Thomas Aquinas says that strong negative emotion makes it more difficult to learn.
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Willa, could you post a reference for this? I would love to read Aquinas's thoughts on this subject.
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ALmom
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Well, I would say in response to the question about compulsion in terms of courses/subjects required that I do require certain content. You will not graduate from our high school without 4 science courses (some I mandate, some are open to their preference and I am always willing to be convinced that they have a burning interest to study something not on my agenda and I have let go with 3 science courses for one child). They will take certain math courses, read certain books, do a certain amount of writing, and demonstrate to me ability or skills in certain areas before leaving my homeschool. I call this having standards. It doesn't mean my children don't have a say in how we do this, or some of the content. I have absolutely no qualms in doing this. I do not care whether it takes 4 years or more to finish - that is up to them. I try to enlist them in choice of texts, reading assignments, methods to learn or demonstrate knowledge, etc. School can look quite different with each child.
Now I mandate 4 science courses even though science is not the burning desire of most for several reasons - I think they need a certain familiarity with vocabulary and thinking in order to engage the debates of the day - so many political and economic decisions have a science bent to them and so much seems to be based on silly science from one agenda or another. I'd like them to have a basic foundation in the major branches of science and in anatomy/biology. They may not have the background to decide or be the prime researchers in the field but they ought to know enough to know how to ask the right questions, debate issues in the public forum using appropriate vocabulary and have some idea of when someone is pulling silly stunts. I also know that some of mine want to do the Jr college and they cannot get in without 4 years of science (so EMT/paramedic will need 4 years of science). I also know that my children tend to be 1 passion people. They are great houdinis at avoiding what they don't like at the moment so science fan will not do literature unless it is required and required in a specific enough way to hold him accountable - and history fan wouldn't touch science to save their life if it wasn't required. Some of those would rather imagine the clouds like cotton candy - really!
I am quite willing to adjust the courses to help them really learn - but the courses are non-negotiable. Funny thing does happen along the way sometimes - science fan has discovered at least some literature he likes (and has at least learned how to read between the lines a bit) and one of my science haters now thinks science is one of her favorite subjects (got a tutor so the subject became more inspiring and understandable for her).
I am always totally open to my children taking initiative and running with something they love and try to build in enough leisure for this (and if they inform me of their explorations, I'm happy to help them find a way to gain credit for it). They like and need a minimum standard that must be done so they know how to juggle time.
Maybe we are so maverick - but we just don't ever seem to fit in one category or philosophy (or for that matter even particular grade - we do what we need to do to really learn something whether it is by their inspiration or our requirement).
I would never ridicule my children or berate them in their difficulties and certainly wouldn't dream of rapping them on the knuckles. If something isn't getting done, I assume the child is struggling with understanding, organization or misfit of materials and I enlist them to tell me what is not working. This has always worked (and if the child is just plain distractable - one did tell me this, we brainstormed solutions to aid in concentration which is how said child got my room as schoolroom - no distractions). However, I have no problem putting my foot down and did tell one child they could not quit piano (taken at their request initially) until they had practiced consistently for 1 year. I don't tend to nag about practice or schoolwork - just expect it done in a timely manner. If something isn't working, they need to talk to me so we can work it out.
Janet
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Compulsion
