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Angie Mc
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I post this topic with trepidation because I've had unpleasant IRL encounters regarding the topic of college for Catholic students. Before I begin I want to assure you that my dh and I truly respect decisions made within the sacrament of marriage regarding where to send children to college. We stand in awe of the great lengths that parents will go to in order to ensure that their children are blessed as college students. We also stand humbly before God's will, understanding that He calls us uniquely to the salvation of our souls.
My dh and I feel called to the goal of helping our children to earn a degree without any of us accumulating debt. I would like some help here, hashing out the why and how. To start, the *why* for us is connected to our personal experience. When dh and I married, we were already in debt because of student loans. After marriage we earned graduate degrees and went further into debt, to include tuition for a Ph.D. at a private school  . The assumption of the day was that this type of debt was *good debt* and that a two career family could easily cover the expense. Well, I had a baby and said something vague like "I'm never ever going to leave her"  moments after her birth and our 2 income plan became a 1 income plan. So much of our early marriage was steeped in the harsh reality of debt, and it wasn't pretty. Over the years, the combination of student loan debt, plus choosing to live on one income, has put us financially "behind" our "peers". (The cool part is...we don't care  . We live in a little humble house, in a little humble town, drive older vehicles, and all that jazz and we're satisfied.) So, while our peers were saving college funds, Dh and I were paying off our own student loan debts. One of the many reasons we would love to see our children with debt-free degrees is the hope that when their children are growing, they will have funds to put away for them.
Before this gets too long  , are there others interested in discussing this topic?
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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guitarnan
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| Posted: May 28 2008 at 11:21pm | IP Logged
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You know, you're not the only parents hoping to graduate debt-free degree-holders! Dh hopes our son will pursue the same path he did, ROTC scholarships, although I wonder if my black-vs-white son can handle orders from superiors who see in grey only.
My parents encouraged us to choose college options that did not involve crushing debt, and I am forever grateful.
I think it's OK for parents to say, "We can pay X, but anything beyond that is up to you." I heard that and it made total sense. Parents aren't obligated to become paupers to pay for Ivy League schools. Parents are obligated to educate for eternity...there's a huge difference.
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: May 28 2008 at 11:23pm | IP Logged
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Angie Mc wrote:
| (The cool part is...we don't care . We live in a little humble house, in a little humble town, drive older vehicles, and all that jazz and we're satisfied.) |
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You're my hero, Angie. 
Angie Mc wrote:
(Before this gets too long , are there others interested in discussing this topic?
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Oh, I am! I am!
I have often thought how ironic it is for people to come out of college owing a small forture. Dh and I were both spoiled brats. Our parents paid for our college education.
I'm grateful now but I can't dream of today's children starting out life with that kind of debt hanging over their head. Our state has recently approved another college tuition increase for the next school year. I'd love to hear the ideas others have.
I will say that we have it pretty easy and are blessed that Louisiana students can get a free college education if they score a certain score on the ACT. A homeschool student has to score 2 points higher though. 
Kayleigh has this and scholarship monies.
Corey's high school education was geared towards applying for TOPS but he went into a technical school and work after graduating. He is now attending the local community college. He works full-time so he pays his tuition at the beginning of each semester. We buy the books. When he finishes each semester with passing grades, we reimburse him the money. Of course the money usually goes directly into the next semester but he's taking it very seriously. We've allocated income tax money for helping the children with college expenses.
I just really don't want to see them with a college debt hanging over their heads.
They both live here at home which helps food wise and on living expenses but the colleges are 20-30 minutes away and we pay the gas.  It'll hit home good when Kayleigh starts in the fall.
We're able to help mainly because we have no debt outside of our house note and dh's truck note. But, even so, dh works a lot of overtime to provide for the expenses.
Speaking of TOPS, I know of hsers who will not apply for it because it is government money and they don't want any help from the government. That is their belief and their right.
I got to speak to a TOPS advisor all day at a recent conference. Our tables were back-to-back. I had a full day to think and ask questions one forgets to ask in a crowded hall surrounded by other parents whose hands are raised.
The money is there to better educate the citizens of that state and she assured me they have no alternative agenda but to give these children a better chance to improve their lives.
While I understand why some hsing families won't apply for the money, I hope they respect our decision allow our children to benefit from it.
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folklaur
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I have *mentioned* to my dd18 that if she went to in-state college (we still own a house there, and she could get some female roomates, and have a place to live, and the State University would be almost to completely free) that I would be totally okay with that.
She really, really wants to go to Benedictine. She knows we can not help her at all, beyond paying for her plane tix home for the Holidays/Summer. She has gotten a lot of grants, scholarships from the college, etc, but she is still a few thousand short. I cringe when I think about her taking out those student loans to cover it (we are STILL in debt, there were some issues, and they gave me $$$ when I should have reached my cap, plus bad choices as we were young and stupid, and we doubt we will ever pay off our Student Loan debt. Ever. It is a dark, sad cloud over us always, as the monthly interest is more than we can cover, so we watch each year as it gets higher and higher. So, we can't help her.)
I know when I mentioned to some other Moms IRL about her attending a local State University, there were gasps and looks of disapproval. I had many tell me horror stories.
(DH and I had both gone there, and we liked it! - But I learned real quick to NOT discuss that. Our experience had to have been some freakishly good luck or something.. ..sorry for the snarkiness..)
My one concern, my main concern, for my dd, is she said to me, in a moment of unabashed honesty, "I am afraid that I will stop going to Mass, that I won't be as strong in my faith if I don't go to Benedictine." She said how Mass is just downstairs in her dorm there, and everyone goes, so she would feel funny NOT going. She said she feels she needs that peer pressure sometimes. She is afraid for her faith. What do I do with that?
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Sarah M
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Angie Mc wrote:
| Well, I had a baby and said something vague like "I'm never ever going to leave her" moments after her birth and our 2 income plan became a 1 income plan. |
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I have a feeling a few here can relate to that!
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pipandpuddy
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My older ones live at home and go to state colleges (10 to 30 minutes from home). I do not pay for their education; they work and pay for it themselves. I have always encouraged them to pay as they go, so that they are not saddled with debt at such a young age. I'm happy to see others thinking along the same lines. Karen
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Molly Smith
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We're still quite a few years away from college, but a trend among our friends is for the kids to start off at community college for the first two years. It's a huge money saver, the kids live at home and they have jobs. IMO, this sounds like a fantastic idea. My parents paid for my state college education, but I just don't see how we would ever swing it. I could see helping to pay for two years of community college, and the kids could save for those other two years (assuming that's their path) during high school and cc. And since our children are roughly two years apart, we wouldn't have overlapping college bills!
Sorry to jump in since my oldest is only 12, but it is time to start saving more and to plant this seed at home.
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MarilynW
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What a great topic.
Thanks for starting this thread Angie. I get the "how are you going to send all these children to college" question constantly - and sometimes I feel a little panicked by it. I am so looking forward to hearing what people have to say.
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stefoodie
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Angie, this article and this group may help (the group has been discussing the debt-free option recently). No time to write long, but I'm with you. Debt-free college is a GREAT idea. Be back later to read everyone's replies.
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chicken lady
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We have been kicking around the idea of Bill to go to work for the university so our dc can go free (IF they want to  ).
Great topic Angie!
Gratefully, we did not have student loans, but we know so many people with VERY high student loans and getting higher each year. We were discussing this with friends over the weekend, they were quoting 80,000.00-100,000.00 in loans for many students these days. That is unbelievable to me
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Maria B.
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I am so interested in this topic as I begin to explore paying for college options. Our first to go to college is at the Naval Academy. He will pay back his education serving our country. My next is beginning the college application process now. I am reading lots of resources and will share later. So interested in everyone else's thoughts and ideas.
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Jen L.
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My oldest is 12 and I have mentionned the possibility of money-saving community college to him. It really is a great deal. Very interested in this discussion - thanks for starting it Angie. 
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Jen
dh Klete,ds (8/95),dd (12/97), dd (11/00), and ^2^ in heaven
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Lara Sauer
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It is my hope to include some type of employable trade as part of my children's high school curriculum. My oldest is in 9th grade, and he has been taking piano lessons for 5 years. When he is 16, he will begin to give piano lessons to the 10 and under crowd. Next year, he will also be apprenticed to a piano tuner friend of the family. He will be taking an on-line course to assist him in this endeavor. I am hoping to include that course work as part of his curriculum/high school transcript as well.
We intend for him to go to the local community college for two years to get his associate's degree, as that is an easy ticket into the better state schools here in VA. With his ability to teach lessons and tune pianos, I am hopeful that he will be able to make it through state college with little to no debt. We will help him by giving him room and board, but other than that, he will have to pay his own way. I am hoping to follow a similar path for my second son, although his talents are not as musical as they are athletic...so I am thinking about refereeing and coaching potentially for him.
For my daughters, I am hoping to send them to a year of cosmetology school where they can learn to cut hair. I can't think of a greater investment for a future mother! I have saved untold dollars by cutting my husband's and children's hair...all with no training. (I even cut some of my friend's kids' hair and they are foolish enough to trust me!) I would love to have had that training in my background, but at the time that I graduated, it would have been considered "beneath" me because I was "too smart" to only go to "beauty school!" No one ever mentioned the fact that that could have been a means to an end...i.e.: DEBT-FREE COLLEGE! I made it out of college pretty unscathed, as it were, with only 10K in student loans, and my husband happily only "owed" money to his parents and not to the government, but it still made things very tight for us when we first started out.
I will have no problem with him attending a state school if he begins it at the level of a Junior. This will allow him to avoid dorm life entirely and to be in classes where the kids have turned their interests from partying to the real world.
I have a very strong problem with a Catholic college costing over $40K a year when factoring in books and housing. I simply refuse to make my children "indentured servants" to their education. I attended a Catholic college...and let me tell you...there was ALOT of sinning going on! My husband attended a state school and he was very involved in their pro-life group...oh yeah, did I mention that I wasn't involved in any pro-life group in college, because there wasn't one on the campus! As the saying goes, "it costs a lot less money for your child to lose his faith at a state school!" (Do I sound bitter? I think I am!) Sorry for the rant, but I had such high expectations as a young woman about how uplifting attending a "Catholic" school was going to be in college, and I found it to be precisely the opposite. However, my school was nothing like TAC, Stuebenville or Christendom.
Enough rambling...GREAT TOPIC!
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Jen L.
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Just want to add that my brother (who is a Catholic Campus minister priest) feels strongly that involvement in a good (i.e. faithful, orthodox, active) Catholic campus ministry at a secular school can work fantastically for a student's journey of faith.
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lapazfarm
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Hmmm...Interesting topic. Dh and I are still paying off our own student loans, so I'd love for my dd to go debt free but I just don't see it happening. We got our FAFSA report back a few weeks ago and I am still baffled by the numbers they think we can contribute. No Pell grant either. Not sure what it takes to qualify for that, but apparently supporting 5 children on an income of 50K doesn't cut it.
UNC, where dd will be attending, has a policy of helping to cover 60% (I think) of the parent's obligation through a combination of grants, loans, or work study. Since dd is a music major and will have to spend lots of time in rehearsals, I am not sure how much work study she will be able to do.
My dd did get a full ride 4 yr scholarship, but it was to a school she doesn't want to attend, so that does us no good. It really hurt to turn it down, though.
So...it looks like she will be taking out loans.
We are looking into a few programs for teachers (dd will be going into a masters program in music/teaching combo)where if you commit to teaching for a few years in a high-need area they will pay off your student loans.That seems like a good option for her, since she wants to teach anyway.
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Angie Mc
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Angie Mc wrote:
Before this gets too long , are there others interested in discussing this topic?
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Yes! Oh good  and thanks so much! I only have a few minutes and will be back shortly...
Here's another *why*. Our dd is the first off to college. She feels called to the vocation of wife and mother. Generally speaking (there are always exceptions, costly health care comes to mind) we take out loans in good faith, anticipating being able to repay them through our income. As a single young woman (currently) we (dh, dd, and I) feel that she needs to consider her future ability to make income to cover her costs. We want her to be free to marry and have children when God calls, regardless of where she is along her degree path or how much she owes for that degree. We want to consider her future dh (if God so blesses us) and the heavy responsibilities he will be asked to carry, which hopefully will not include our dd's student loan debt. This article, Should We Rethink the Way We Are Educating Our Daughters, articulates some of my concerns.
I know too many woman of my generation who bought into the expensive degree = high income career route, only to see them feel torn between their vocation as wife and mother and feeling obligated to repay their loans and *use* their degree.
Love,
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Angie Mc
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MacBeth
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Interesting topic, and timely. From where we stand, we will help with tuition as much as possible, and knowing the cost, we took a long and careful look at the conservatory options, applying to two that are totally free, and a few with very large endowments. Some of Libby's friends are in conservatories that have astronomical price tags (when teacher to student ratio is 1:3, you pay) . One friend is the daughter of a widow with 5 kids and can barely make the cost with massive loans. Another friend just got his DMA in composition and is Desperately Seeking Employment just to pay off those loans. Anyone need a Juilliard-trained composer? It's frightening.
It pays to look around, have something extra to offer the school (music, sports), and to appeal the fine-aid decision. Some schools with large endowments are now charging a sliding tuition fee.
As for Catholic universities...tuition varies, and so do aid packages. Libby got a huge merit scholarship from the one Catholic school to which she applied, but would still be paying only a bit less there than the basic price of her chosen conservatory. Go figure.
And what Jen L. said. It's true. There are amazing opportunities at secular schools with strong Catholic campus ministries.
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Cay Gibson
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Angie Mc wrote:
I post this topic with trepidation because I've had unpleasant IRL encounters regarding the topic of college for Catholic students. Before I begin I want to assure you that my dh and I truly respect decisions made within the sacrament of marriage regarding where to send children to college. We stand in awe of the great lengths that parents will go to in order to ensure that their children are blessed as college students. We also stand humbly before God's will, understanding that He calls us uniquely to the salvation of our souls.
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Angie,
I think what you've brought up is probably tons of different topics within one. I'm having so many different thoughts stemming from this one thread.
Perhaps I should have kept my other thoughts here.
Angie Mc wrote:
Here's another *why*. Our dd is the first off to college. She feels called to the vocation of wife and mother.
I know too many woman of my generation who bought into the expensive degree = high income career route, only to see them feel torn between their vocation as wife and mother and feeling obligated to repay their loans and *use* their degree.
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Angie, Thank you for the article link. Kayleigh and I have been having some thoughtful conversations about raising large families and the cost of living, etc. and I've been dropping articles on her pillow for her to read.
I've also thought long and hard about how to further my younger dd's education down a different vein then the one we took with Kayleigh. Then I ask myself "Why?" Kayleigh has proven trustworthy and faithful. And I consider how a college degree isn't necessarily a bad thing for a girl to acquire. And I also think Kayleigh will be better prepared to live in this world than they will if I continue down the path I'm looking at. Which isn't a bad path at all. I'm just wondering how realistic it is.
Yet we're not necessarily suppose to live in (of) this world, are we? 
The children are ready to head to the waterpark so I'm beginning to write in a jumble. Better go for now. 
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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ALmom
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Well I'm with you Angie - but with some caveats. I do think you have to look at the whole picture and some things do depend on the field being pursued - (both whether or not less expensive educations will suffice considering both spiritual and academic/career factors) and whether or not the field pursued enables reasonable expectations of payment at the end), the amount and terms of the loan and the reasonable expectation of being able to pay it off without burden. I also think that a child's sense of their vocation is an important factor here as well.
I had a very small student loan. It was well within payment with any job and could easily have been paid in full the first year out of school. I paid it off in full prior to marriage. Had God sent me someone right out of college, and we married and had children right away, I still would have been able to stay at home and loan payment would not have been burdensome. Of course, this is in the days when you had really low interest student loans. Honestly, the loan was easily payable with any kind of job, even minimum wage and probably even scrounging with babysitting money. I did not go to graduate school primarily due to financial considerations and a sense of justice to my parents to help my siblings after they helped me. I did not want debt upon debt. I had this thing about not bringing my debts into the marriage but the loan was such that my interest rate was so low it probably made more financial sense to keep paying it off on scheduele and earning interest on the invested money. My husband had no debt and owed a small amount of time to the Navy (as a civilian) after graduation.
I guess what I am saying is that it is hard to declare a "you must do it this way or not this way." I don't think you go blindly into debts just to get to a private Catholic or Ivy League education, though that does seem to be the general mindset around here.
As far as Catholic v secular etc - it all depends. Some fields preclude the Catholic colleges anyways. I don't know - as we are struggling with reality here in terms of music. We don't have the means to pay for expensive summer camps, nor can we afford the big schools that have the training. The University Schools of Music can only take you so far but Conservatories are through the roof and all are in very high cost living areas. I don't think we advised incorrectly starting out, but there are tough choices ahead. We are discouraging debt. It may be that she has to take some time off, work and get private lessons. I know that it will be a harder road for her. Is this a wall that is there because God has a different plan for her? If He does, he hasn't revealed it yet. Is it a test to strenghten her and toughen her for something down the road? She certainly seems to have the drive to want it badly enough. With all the discouragement, she has a few alternative plans in the works. I'm not so sure I'd nix any loans if it was something she could reasonably pay off flipping burgers for a year and that would cover the difference. But her field would require loans equivalent to medical school and that is ludicrous for us/her to even consider.
Right now she is forgoing a competition so she can accompany a whole bunch of people and earn some money. She is spending as much time on other people's music as on her solo stuff because she has to earn money. She may have to consider dropping orchestra to allow more time for money making music jobs - teaching, accompanying, etc. She has plans to take on more students to earn money, has made contacts for jobs, etc. So far she has paid every dime herself, including the expensive trip to SF to find out what she needed to know. She is carrying a huge load and some of it makes it harder for her because you have to have practice time for your solo stuff if you want to get better. It is all a huge and stressful balancing act. She wants no debt undergraduate because she has to somehow figure out how to get to a Conservatory - which means earning mega bucks besides finding and affording the right kind of teacher. She will definitely have to be creative here. Currently she doesn't have much spiritual support outside of Mass and the Sacraments at all and it is tough. God is good and He sustains her but realistically we know we have to provide some means for her to travel for this as needed. Things will realistically be much tougher for her than for those whose folks can help pay or who happen to live in conservatory rich parts of the country or those who were identified early as child prodigies. It all comes down to whether or not this is the path she is supposed to take and how badly she wants it and whether or not she can persevere. It is tough for Catholics in music. It is really tough for AL Catholics. I wouldn't have the heart to insist that she not take any loans at all if that is the only way to pursue her dream - but they do have to have a realistic and near term probability of repayment.
Our next dd wants to pursue history and lit. I don't think she will be really well served in secular, extremely liberal low cost options around here. As long as we're having to travel far away, it might as well be Catholic as the expense will be comparable. We are still not going to suggest huge debts and she may have to do some core courses locally and work for a few years before pursuing it unless she gets huge scholarships. It is not about being stubborn and refusing to help our children, but simply that right now having a vehicle that will transport our children, etc. are more of a priority and the education will have to be earned by them (we'll help as much as we are able) but it must be done prudently with a realistic look at the impact of the decisions you make.
Some of our children are pursuing more science related fields. That will be easier as a good degree locally or in state schools gets them in the door and is fine. The math and science programs around here are top notch. It shouldn't be hugely expensive for them and no need for any thought of loans. Yes, we are from the South and most of the big engineering companies here have HQ elsewhere and you hit a wall in promotions if you are from the south and graduate from local colleges - but the way around it is you transfer to somewhere else temporarily and then you are suddenly promotable. Our independent learning homeschoolers should be able to make enough of an impact with their creativity and work ethic and people skills and ability to write coherant reports. A degree from one of the big names might make it easier for promotions initially but in the long run it isn't going to make a huge difference in this field unless their only dream is research - which may involve a bigger name graduate program.
Obviously for someone who says that they just know their own weakness and a secular institution is too much for them, then by all means try to make the other happen but be realistic about your own and their finances. As someone said, the temptations are there no matter where you go so it is a good idea to be talking about that ahead of time. Sometimes we have dreamy or unrealistic views of the Catholic colleges and the children are more vulnerable because their guard is down. It is an interesting mix at secular colleges. Where my music dd is, there are some hidden treasures in the woodwork and depending on your interests, you might find a mini Catholic point of view right in the middle of a very liberal institution even in the heart of the Bible belt.
Janet
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Angie Mc
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Joined: Jan 31 2005
Location: Arizona
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Posts: 11400
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| Posted: May 29 2008 at 12:34pm | IP Logged
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Cay Gibson wrote:
Angie Mc wrote:
| (The cool part is...we don't care . We live in a little humble house, in a little humble town, drive older vehicles, and all that jazz and we're satisfied.) |
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You're my hero, Angie.
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You are WAY too kind to me, Cay! Dh and I have learned so much the HARD way (we call it the "McIntyre Way")...late bloomers...thick-skulled...gluttons for punishment...you get the picture . It is truly a blessing and gift from God to be at this place of contentment.
Cay Gibson wrote:
Angie Mc wrote:
I post this topic with trepidation because I've had unpleasant IRL encounters regarding the topic of college for Catholic students. Before I begin I want to assure you that my dh and I truly respect decisions made within the sacrament of marriage regarding where to send children to college. We stand in awe of the great lengths that parents will go to in order to ensure that their children are blessed as college students. We also stand humbly before God's will, understanding that He calls us uniquely to the salvation of our souls.
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Angie,
I think what you've brought up is probably tons of different topics within one. I'm having so many different thoughts stemming from this one thread.
Perhaps I should have kept my other thoughts here.
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I like your thoughts where ever they are . I do think that the discussion about the pros and cons of sending children to Catholic schools (at all levels) is an important one. I have also found it to be a very passionate one! It definitely dovetails with this topic because, under most circumstances, Catholic colleges cost more money than public colleges, making them more difficult to do debt-free. For the purposes of this topic, I would love to hear how families have managed a debt-free private school degree...how awesome it that?!
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: debt-free college degree?
