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Michiel
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| Posted: Jan 12 2010 at 5:53pm | IP Logged
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Sorry not a better subject title. I need help from the wise ladies here. I have an 8 year old ds who is ADHD, bipolar, and with learning disabilities too. My older ds, 11, does not have these problems, yet I have pulled him from Catholic school to teach him at home also because he just is not working up to his ability. He is so bright and just can't seem to produce his knowledge in a grade-able form. Rather than continue nightly fights about his work, or lack of it, I started teaching him at home last month. Over all, I would say that he is doing OK here. Rocky start, as we feel our way, learning how to do two at home, but doing OK.
My problem/sorrow is other than academic. They fight sometimes so horribly! Younger ds definitely does need medicine adjustment now, and will see doctor next week, but older ds definitely fans the flames. To put it another way, if younger ds was blind, then older ds often sticks his leg out to trip him. I have tried everything: prayer alone, prayer with the boys, talking to them together, talking privately, more prayer, and more prayer. Today, particularly rough, entailed my sending both to their rooms for awhile while I just withdrew and mourned, prayed, lamented. Normally, I am a VERY upbeat person who takes problems in stride and makes the best of things, but this has really gotten me down.
My question is what to do about older son? Sure, he'd love to be back at school and goofing around getting by. He still has friends over every week, so it's not like he's in total seclusion. But until he learns to be a more careful student, he will be at home. And it's not all bad here. We have a pretty darn good time learning together. But I'm so concerned about his lack of empathy. Or am I expecting too much from him? It's not easy being the sibling of a child with mental disabilities, who seems almost normal, but isn't quite.
Both, by the way, are adopted, if that has any bearing on the problem.
I was just so down today thinking about how I can make days not be so miserable as today and yesterday were.
I interrupted my younger ds today while he was praying. He told me that he was praying to be a normal kid who doesn't have these fights. It breaks my heart. And I truly thing that there wouldn't be these fights if older ds were just a little more understanding. I almost wish that younger ds had something that one could SEE so that one could remember that all is not as it should be.
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Michiel
mom to two boys
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stellamaris
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| Posted: Jan 12 2010 at 7:02pm | IP Logged
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Oh, dear! No advice, but praying for you and for your sons. 
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Caroline
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Michiel
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| Posted: Jan 12 2010 at 7:42pm | IP Logged
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Thank you. Prayer, I know is is such a help.
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Michiel
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Jan 12 2010 at 7:46pm | IP Logged
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It could be partly age, I don't have a special needs child. But my 12 yr old DD and 11 yr old son will pick and poke and trip and wrestle and drive me batty. Now it's fairly even since they're about the same age and size. But your 11 yr old may just be doing this kind of thing and your 8 yr old just can't handle it.
Honestly, I've started having them do pushups (or situps or a combo) when they won't stop. Because invariably someone ends up actually hurt because no one involved knows when enough is enough.. the whole.. it's fun until someone gets hurt deal. I had a friend suggest it.. 1 for every year of age. I figure it's good for them and uses up some of that misdirected energy. 
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All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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melanie
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| Posted: Jan 12 2010 at 8:16pm | IP Logged
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Oh dear...
I am *so* feeling you. 
You've pretty much perfectly described my 9yo, right down the diagnoses of ADHD, bipolar disorder, and learning disabilities. He is very challengning (and also my nephew, so we've just had him for 3 1/2 years and there's a host of social issues from his "previous life"). He and my 13yo daughter fight like cats and dogs. I mean, over carpet lint. It's insane. And yes, she can just poke and provoke him when she's in a mood to, which is more and more frequently. It disturbs me too, to see that she can be so unfeeling sometimes towards what he's been through,,,it's been hard for her too. Her life was pretty much turned upside down when he dropped into our lives. Anyway, I don't have any great insights. It bothers me a lot because I have two, soon to be three, younger kids coming up behind these two big ones and I don't want them to treat each other this way.
I do have a friend that has made some "rules of engagement" in her house...she emailed them to me a while back. I actually met with my 9yo's therapist yesterday to kind of come up with a new game plan for some of the behavior problems we've been having, but I haven't had a chance to sit down and work on this yet...basically the idea is to reward them for changing these behaviors in some way. We tend to just give consequences, and frankly, I'm out of them, especially for the 9yo. Most days anymore it seems like he's got nothing but food and air left by the end of the day, so when he's still misbehaving what else have I got??
I have to run and finish throwing people in bed, but I'm glad to brainstorm this some more...it'd help me too!
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Melanie
homeschooling Maria (13yo), Kain (10yo), Jack (5yo), Tess (2yo), and our newest blessing, Henry Robert, born 4/23!
slightlycrunchycatholic.blogspot.com
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Michiel
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| Posted: Jan 12 2010 at 9:21pm | IP Logged
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Melanie, I know exactly what you mean. If older ds is in a kind mood, life is good here. If he's got a bee in his bonnet, everyone's day is going to be crummy. How can one child influence an entire family? I try not to give him that power, but if younger ds falls for his traps, it is going to drag me into the fray. I guess my problem, and yours I'm thinking, is how to defuse the older kid who could do better? How to motivate the able child to more compassion? I don't want compassion to come at 30. I want it while we can enjoy it as a family. Honestly, how the day goes depends on my "normal" child.
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Michiel
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Kathryn
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| Posted: Jan 12 2010 at 11:01pm | IP Logged
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Hi Michiel,
I've heard Dr. Ray talk about this twice in the past couple of weeks and he said the consequences for the older child have to be severe enough to make them not repeat the behavior and that the consequences for said action up to this point prob. haven't been severe enough. Well, this peaked my interest b/c I have an issue w/ each child I could use this strategy on!
He said if the behavior is that severe that he's almost tormenting the younger child, you would have to save your most severe consequence for the older child. He gave the example of immediate and total black-out for whatever specified time. I think he meant for the day but one occasion he was referring to a 6 year old and another was an older child. This would mean no videos, no tv, no friends, no privileges...NOTHING. If family goes out to eat, that child either makes a sandwich at home before or makes one after but doesn't get the privilege of eating out with the family. So, you would explain to older DS that if there is any action deemed inappropriate toward younger DS, this is what the consequence would be.
Well, hope that helps. I just thought of those calls from your question.
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Taffy
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| Posted: Jan 13 2010 at 8:01am | IP Logged
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A strategy that I've found helpful is to make sure that I reward good behaviour as well as discipline for poor behaviour. Have a chat with your 11 year old and discuss what you'd like to see happen with his behaviour towards his brother. Then, when you catch him behaving more positively towards his brother, give him some positive reinforcement for it.
Another suggestion I heard just last night is to develop a chart of consequences for poor behaviour. My friend described a problem she was having with her daughter with leaving her things on the floor. Every time that mom had to put something away, her daughter would lose something important to her. There was a list of ten, the first thing she would lose would be her nintendo (I think), then her books, then computer, etc. until all she had left were one change of clothes and sleeping on the floor. There was also a list of things she would have to do to earn back the thing she had lost. She had to do those things for the whole day before she could earn her lost possession back. My friend is having some great early success with this system.
For your particular problem, you could have a list of things precious to your 11 year old that he would lose for treating his brother badly. To earn back an item, there could be a list of positive actions towards his brother that you must see him do, without any infractions or poor behaviour, for a whole day before he is allowed to get back the thing he lost. Things like, "you cannot hit your brother for a whole day."
Of course the key to making any kind of discipline program work is consistency and follow-through. I am sure that there will be much "wailing and gnashing of teeth" when your 11 year old starts to lose some of his prize possessions. Stick to your guns and don't give in until he starts to act better.
Another thing I would do is create a similar list for the 8 year old. Make your expectations for him easier since he is younger and he has more challenges with controlling his behaviour. But, even with his difficulties, he's going to have to learn to control his behaviour to get by in life. I know it's tough, my oldest is autistic with many of his own "challenges". I'm learning to develop a very thick hide.
Good luck and let us know what strategies you find helpful! 
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Susan
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melanie
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| Posted: Jan 13 2010 at 8:03am | IP Logged
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We've used Dr. Ray's black out...it's a good tool to have. In fact, we used it the other day with the 9yo, and we picked up taco bell on the way to dance class and he ate peanut butter sandwiches instead. Boy, I felt mean.  And of course, he made sure I knew *he* thought I was mean.
In our case,I have to say, it's the 9yo that dictates the mood in the house. My oldest does provoke him, and it's an issue, but usually what happens is that the 9yo is being hateful to everyone and she gets ticked off with him and decides to "punish" him by being snotty with him for the rest of the day, which just makes things worse. But it's the 9yo that is destroying the peace. He literally will roll out of bed in a terrible mood some days and just steamroll right over everyone in the house until he makes sure we are *all* in a terrible mood. I was talking to his therapist about this, and we both think that he really seems to get some need met by doing this. I mean, we've all known adults like this, right? People who walk around taking their anger at the world out on everyone else? He'll have these moods, and they are pretty frequent right now, and it's like a misery loves company thing, he will pickpickpick at me until I lose my temper with him, and this seems to make him feel better. It's like he can't communicate that he feels so bad and why, so he's getting me to do it for him. Does that make any sense? I wonder if a similar dynamic could be going on between your boys? Anyway, just a thought. I know with my 9yo, we have had neighborhood kids that have really enjoyed pushing his buttons. They would come over to "play" and would just bait him and stand back to watch the show. If this is the case with your older, I think Kathryn is right, you are going to have to set up the consequences geared towards the older one for specific behaviors that you see. My friend's "rules of engagement" had an If/then kind of format, like "If you call names, then you will have this consequence."
As for the empathy...well, I don't know what to tell you there. I wish we had more of that here too, but what can you do? You can make someone feel something that they don't. That may come later. In the beginning, he will likely resent the younger one more because he will see him as making him get into trouble. From another perspective, my nephew's father, my brother, was very much like my nephew when he was a child, and I am *his* older sister.  I don't remember being purposely mean to him, but we were 5 years apart and so I may have had more tolerance for that reason. But we *did* still fight a lot. He was a pain in the butt! It's hard to be a sibling of a child like that!  The fighting did subside as we got older. He actually became a more pleasant person as a teenager, which was totally the opposite of what my mom expected...she was scared to death of seeing him become a teenager. 
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Melanie
homeschooling Maria (13yo), Kain (10yo), Jack (5yo), Tess (2yo), and our newest blessing, Henry Robert, born 4/23!
slightlycrunchycatholic.blogspot.com
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Kathryn
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| Posted: Jan 13 2010 at 5:51pm | IP Logged
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melanie wrote:
As for the empathy...well, I don't know what to tell you there. I wish we had more of that here too, but what can you do? |
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I was thinking about this today on the way home from Mass and one of my "famous" quotes to my kids (I'm sure I didn't invent it ) is...FAKE IT TILL YOU MAKE IT! That relates to anything they don't feel like doing. I've heard over and over that feelings usually follow the action. I suppose for kids that can take longer; it certainly does for many adults. I think in terms of the times I don't feel so loving and remember that the feeling of love does usu. follow the action of being loving.
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Willa
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| Posted: Jan 13 2010 at 9:28pm | IP Logged
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Michiel wrote:
| They fight sometimes so horribly! Younger ds definitely does need medicine adjustment now, and will see doctor next week, but older ds definitely fans the flames. To put it another way, if younger ds was blind, then older ds often sticks his leg out to trip him. |
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I am just wondering if there is any way you can separate them as soon as tension starts flaring, before they get ugly to each other. Different rooms, different sides of the room, whatever it takes, just so they can't continue the aggravation.
Also, are there particular times when they particularly do the arguing? Any particular topics? Any circumstances? Sometimes I keep an observation log for a day or two. I read about this in a sensory integration handbook and it has really helped in lots of occasions. My kids fight when they are bored or over-stimulated, for example.
Basically, I would treat a problem that is destroying your peace so much as top priority -- and rearrange the schedule to make room to deal with it. I find that once the habit is broken you have a better chance of appealing to their better side.
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Willa
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Michiel
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| Posted: Jan 14 2010 at 6:35am | IP Logged
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What a help your posts have been. No, my children are not little angels - yet - but first, the prayers, also just knowing that others live this too encourages me to persevere (as if I had a choice .
Some things I'm going to try: I have a once-a-week sitter on Thursday afternoons whom younger ds LOVES. He is our deacon's son and actually my husbands age, and due to health does not have a full-time job. They hang out together and it is great for all of us. Today, I'm taking older ds out with me for a date instead of doing my usual errands, etc. Some one-on-one mom time will be good for him and also give him a break from his brother, and brother will get to have sitter all to himself. Both are pretty excited about this plan today. I'll reverse it another time and have a date with younger ds. Just some connecting with older ds might help, also, treating him like he is as mature as he should be might help him rise to the occasion.
I am definitely going to try Willa's suggestion of tracking the trouble times. I think it's morning while they are getting ready for the day and also times that we are not doing school and they have free time. We all need the free time, but I may need to rethink how that is to happen. We may just have to have alone time for all of us. Does anyone do that, just set aside some time in the day where everyone spends time alone?
Kathryn, your blackout idea was in effect with my older ds for quite some time while he was at school. He has been working his way out of it, and unfortunately, his transgressions are more in tone of voice rather than an objective deed. Snotty tone of voice sets younger ds off just as much as a rude word, but is so much harder to nail down. Older ds is definitely going to be a lawyer. I must say that the blackout did help for some overall problems, but I think we're going to try some other tactics for the time.
Praise good behavior. I think I do that, but I think I forget to, also. That is going to be my particular mission to get better at, and we'll see how it works.
Again, thanks to all for taking the time to respond.
Blessings,
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Michiel
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melanie
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"Does anyone do that, just set aside some time in the day where everyone spends time alone?"
We do! We have "reading and rest time" every day for an hour after lunch. It is my favorite time of the day!  Everyone goes to a room alone for an hour and they are supposed to read for at least the first 30 minutes, then they can do what they want as long as it's quiet. I get my toddler down for a nap during this time, sometimes get a little one myself too.
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Melanie
homeschooling Maria (13yo), Kain (10yo), Jack (5yo), Tess (2yo), and our newest blessing, Henry Robert, born 4/23!
slightlycrunchycatholic.blogspot.com
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4Real Forums : Special Blessings
Topic: need advice
