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teachingmyown
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| Posted: Sept 15 2008 at 2:42pm | IP Logged
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I have never posted in Special Blessings before. I wasn't quite sure if I had a child who "qualified". I am still not sure but I was hoping you ladies could help me out.
Ds10, my third child, has been a handful all along, since birth. He was one I never put down for the first year. He was a non-stop biter, of everyone we would spend time with! He did not talk until at least three and was not intelligible until five. He still has difficulty with some words such as risk, ask, disc, to name a few that pop into my head. He potty trained very late and still wets the bed every night. He has always had a wild and emotional temper. We tried Feingold for a while, but I was not disciplined enough to stick with it.
Academically:
He learned to read around seven, which would be considered late in this home. I didn't push it as he clearly wasn't getting it early on. He loves to read now and will read for hours a day, and he reads a variety: historical fiction, fantasy, science books (Usbourne type) and whatever else I give him.
He does hardly writes at all, when he does he runs all the words together and his handwriting is really sloppy. He has done LOG for grammar and does well with the material for the most part. Although sometimes he rushes and will do a whole page or section wrong because he did not read the directions correctly.
He doesn't like read alouds and while he will sit with us and listen when I read he refused to listen to his sisters (who read aloud very well) read.
Math is the issue we are struggling with right now, although I don't think it is the math per se. I think he is actually very analytical and probably very capable of being good at math. He seemed very quick at it before it became a "formal" class.
I have tried the better late than early philosophy and even unschooling to a degree. For years, I have let him get by with lots of varied reading, some math, a grammar and spelling workbook and whatever religion text I had for his grade, usually F&L.
This year he was really struggling with finishing up his 4th grade Singapore math. I just bought TT5 last week thinking it would help. He did the first lessons, very basic stuff, and got 100%. Then today he tried Lesson 3, still pretty basic, but he missed two problems. He threw a major fit insisting that the computer was wrong. When he and I went back and looked at it together, he insisted that it said something different now than when he was doing it alone.  No matter what I said to convince him that the program can not change, he kept insisting that it had. (Interestingly, my dh, who was here when this was happening, admitted that he used to accuse his teachers of having said the wrong thing during class and then changing the answer for the test, because HE couldn't have gotten it wrong!)
Sort of related to this problem is that when he is given an hour on the XBox and then told his time is up he accuses us of changing the clocks! I know he doesn't believe that we have done so, but it is his way of expressing his disbelief that his time is up.
I am really thinking that I need outside help here. I don't want him falling so far behind. I don't know how to deal with the emotional outbursts and the refusal to deal with reality. We have constant episodes during the day where he is yelling at a sister for "glaring" at him, or screaming because I didn't tell him that he was supposed to vacuum (a daily chore). He disappears to his room or the trampoline often during the day, and I am embarrassed to say that I let him. There are seven other needy kids in this house and I am fried.
I am already dealing with some pretty severe guilt over my oldest. I really fear that I failed him and should have pursued some help for him early on. He is a senior now and still won't buckle down and do his work and I am left wondering if there is some LD issue that should have been addressed. He did spend three years in public high school, but I guess by that age they don't bother to find out why a kid is failing.
Can someone help me? Give me some hints for dealing with him and/or point me in the right direction if it seems that I should get him evaluated? I just need to know what I am dealing with.
__________________
In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
Remembering Today
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folklaur
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| Posted: Sept 15 2008 at 4:30pm | IP Logged
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Oh, hugs, Molly!
My suggestion would be to have him evaluated by a Developmental Pediatrician. You will probably need to get a referral from his regular Family Doc/Pedi, but maybe not.
No more beating yourself up, either.
And more hugs, too!
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teachingmyown
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| Posted: Sept 15 2008 at 6:08pm | IP Logged
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Thanks Laura! You know, it is just so hard to know when to look for outside help. It seems this society is so label-happy, medication-crazy that I really don't trust the "experts". But then I worry about going too far to the other extreme because of my skepticism and my kids suffering for it.
__________________
In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
Remembering Today
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KC in TX
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Molly, I second Laura's suggestion. Check with a developmental pediatrician. You can also take their advice or diagnosis for what it's worth.
Many hugs to you. It can be so hard to figure it all out.
__________________
KC,
wife to Ben (10/94),
Mama to LB ('98)
Michaela ('01)
Emma ('03)
Jordan ('05)
And, my 2 angels, Rose ('08) and Mark ('09)
The Cabbage Patch
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hopalenik
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| Posted: Sept 16 2008 at 3:41pm | IP Logged
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Hi,
I received an email from HSLDA about special learners-in specific, Smart Kids who refuse to write. This topic hit me hard because my nearly 9 dd, also reads for hours a day but refuses to write, can not spell in a written fashion but can orally, has the sloppiest handwriting, can not draw to save her life, and on the rare, super rare occasion when she does put words to paper (about 4 times in her life) they are not sentences, and possess zero punctuation. If you would like to PM with your email address, I will forward the email with all the attached links. Many of the attached links, gave me some good ideas for help (I just started doing them today, so I don't know if they will work), and they also gave me a list of books to go and check out of the library.
Thanks,
HOlly
__________________
Holly
Mom to dd 10, twins dd and ds (transplant as baby that failed 05/09, permanent dialysis patient) 8 , dd 5 and dd 3 1/2 and dd in Feb 2009. 2 I hope to meet in heaven.
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ALmom
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| Posted: Sept 16 2008 at 6:24pm | IP Logged
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Molly,
Hugs. I know I don't know you in person, but I've often identified with many of your posts. More Hugs. To find answers will be a relief for both of you. When you are dealing with an undiagnosed child, it is easy to beat yourself up. You just don't quite understand why nothing seems to work and for a long time you assume that you just don't quite get this teaching stuff. When you find out, honestly, it was a relief for my children as well as for me. I'd pursue finding answers. Here are some things I'd suggest while you hunt on just who or where you will begin:
1) jot down every idiosyncracy or glitch whether or not you think it is a LD or not (ie don't try to decide if this is discipline issue or LD issue). Be the expert, scientific observer of your child (just note everything you see or notice and any circumstances surrounding them and make a point of noticing without drawing any conclusions from this). I noted things from complaints of dizziness, to falling out of the chair while trying to do school, to the great houdini act (disappearing out the back door as soon as my back was turned), couldn't do jumping jacks, played two handed games one hand at a time instead of with both hands together, to fights over quitting every time was it and tons more. I literally ended up with 2 1/2 typewritten pages. There were things that I noticed at this point, that I simply had missed before in a busy household. I also didn't really think half the stuff on the list was relevant until I started grouping and retyping and had read just a few things here and there. It did turn out that many of the things I would normally have written off as discipline/sportsmanship issues or illness really were related to the problem.
2) After doing this observation for some time and before going to an appointment, compile this list, type it up neatly with like things grouped together. Now begin to think about what you see. Are there any clues in light of anything you've read or seen out there? (We didn't know enough at this point to definitely know what we were dealing with but we had some clues in terms of areas to check first and I started seeing some real patterns to things). I also observed tests and made other additions to my list from what I saw there.
3) When we went to any appointment, we took the list with us - gave a copy to the doc. but also kept a copy for us. When they came out with their ideas of what they thought, and their recommendations, it was our turn to question. We wanted an explanation for how it explained our child's symptoms. The label and medicate crowd invariably locked on to one or two symptoms (often never even looking at our list)and basically admitted that it didn't explain anything else. We kindly chose to keep looking. When the doc who did finally come up with a diagnosis and a solution that we went with (and which pretty much solved this child's difficulties) was the doc that looked at our typewritten list, asked if he could keep a copy, and was able to explain to us in very plain terms exactly how the problem he found impacted/explained most of the other areas. When we found the answer, we knew it and it made sense to us.
4) Don't give up. You may hit some dead ends and find some wacky folks as you go along. Don't be afraid to be assertive (at one point I told the doc that I knew our child had some sort of vision problem and we'd go anywhere to find what it was - after the eye doc had looked for the third time and told us didn't see anything wrong. He did refer us after that to the doc that found our problem). Also don't hesitate to refuse things that you don't feel comfortable doing and questioning and making people convince you that it is worth the time and money and exhaustion to do their recommendations. You'll be a much better "therapist" or whatever if you are convinced this is right and it will be easier to stick with a program. Also almost everything is expensive and you don't want to waste money on something that just doesn't seem right.
Don't ignore your instinct. If you, as the mom, recognize something isn't right, then you are probably correct. Finding what the LD (what I call a diagnosis) as opposed to a label (what the schools do when they want to label and shelve or not deal with the problem) will help you gain some insight into how you might be able to set things up for success - or have a better clue when to push and when to back off and sometimes there are solutions that change our children's lives. We had folks tell us there was absolutely nothing wrong - or they would tell us something we knew to be true but that just didn't seem to explain the depth of the problem (ie couldn't track with the eyes and just needed to do a few little paper and pencil exercises to jump that along). We had to trust instinct here as I went out on a limb with docs. I might have looked like a fool if there really wasn't anything wrong, but logically me looking like a fool was a much better option than missing something my child had been struggling with for 10 years already.
Talk to folks in your region - they may not tell you who to go to but invariably you'll hear about a place or two not to go (either unprofessional, waste of money, hate homeschoolers and are cruel to the children or).
Be willing to drive. We had to go 3 hours for diagnosis and knew we wouldn't be able to do therapy there - but we went for the diagnosis anyways figuring we would work things out as we go. We ended up with what I think was the best of all situations - an expert diagnosis with willingness to communicate and work with us and a local therapist willing to work with the doc and us. We ended up with an independent team that acted as a continual fresh look at what was and was not working rather than the ruts of one office or another. You are in a much larger area, so I'm sure you will probably find more options closer to home than we did.
Look at free information on the internet - from organizations that work with helping folks with LD. Diannecraft has a great online site, so do ICAN and some others. Look up anything you think might be related. Also find out from dh what he remembers from schooling. We turned out to have an extremely strong family history in the area of our particular diagnosis but it wasn't something I really realized until someone mentioned something about strabismus and lazy eye. We were actually amazed at how many things have the same symptom lists - but generally my observations helped point us more in the direction of one than another. Also it is never too late to address things so you may even see things that make you think of your older child. I know at ICAN, at least here, they have worked with adults who wanted it. It isn't like you can tell your grown children what to do, but at least you can pass on info.
I know you pray so that goes without saying. But, honestly, God does guide the whole, crazy convoluted search. Whatever is in your personality, God will turn it to good purpose as you pray and search for your child.
Also reading of the exhaustion, difficulties and joys here are really uplifting. I don't have nearly the challenges that most moms here do, but even so when your child is struggling, you don't get the same kind of pats on the back in society. Here there is an understanding and a celebration of accomplishment however small or great, because each and every child is precious and not defined by what they are capable of doing or not doing. (I'm not saying that this isn't true of posters at large because this board seems to have a unique group of loving folks who are all trying to live for God and shed the materialism of the world, just that most of the world is talking about SAT scores and all the advanced things folks are doing or the awards and it is hard not to compare - and we've all been somewhere where a relative or friend does the quiz show thing. When you are here, it is just different, so you don't fall for the same temptations!)
Janet
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teachingmyown
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| Posted: Sept 16 2008 at 10:27pm | IP Logged
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Wow, Janet! Thank you.
__________________
In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
Remembering Today
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: Sept 18 2008 at 8:11am | IP Logged
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Molly, try to find this book at your library
Thomas Sowell: The Einstein Syndrome
You've described some of the markers for these kids who are often labeled developmentally behind but are actually quite bright. You can google the topic for some basic info. to see if he has more of the markers. Please please please read the book before allowing him to be evaluated??? The research on these boys (mostly) is being done by Dr. Stephen Camarata at Vanderbilt University. I've got one of these kids. You can pm me if you want.
hope this helps.
__________________
Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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teachingmyown
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| Posted: Sept 29 2008 at 2:13pm | IP Logged
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In the meantime, until we get to the doctor and get referrals and go through all the investigating, how should I proceed academically?
I struggle majorly with being structured and consistent to start with. So, when I have a kid who balks at everything I try to do, we end up doing very little. Currently, he is doing teaching textbooks, catechism read-alouds with me and his sisters, and various science and history reading. I really want to get a routine and a set list of what needs to be accomplished.
I am considering ordering Oak Meadow so we have a plan to follow. But maybe this won't work for this kid? Is there something better?
I especially want a language arts program. He has done LOG in past years and not complained. I just always worry about retention with that program because my kids seem to breeze through it, get everything right but then I ask them about concepts learned and they don't remember. I just bought Queen's Language Lessons for him. I don't know what I was thinking because the first lesson asked him to write a story about a picutre!
Is there a well-taught, "cut and dry" language arts program that will teach him what he needs to know but not ask for creativity?
thanks to everyone for their suggestions. Life is so chaotic and I am at a loss.
__________________
In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
Remembering Today
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pipandpuddy
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| Posted: Sept 29 2008 at 4:43pm | IP Logged
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Molly,
You might like the new one from Susan Wise Bauer. It's called Writing with Ease. A lot of it is done orally, and there is very little writing (copywork and dictation). Her grammar program also is very easy to use. It's called Language Lessons. Both programs together take less than 30 minutes a day. Karen
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teachingmyown
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| Posted: Sept 29 2008 at 4:49pm | IP Logged
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pipandpuddy wrote:
Molly,
You might like the new one from Susan Wise Bauer. It's called Writing with Ease. A lot of it is done orally, and there is very little writing (copywork and dictation). Her grammar program also is very easy to use. It's called Language Lessons. Both programs together take less than 30 minutes a day. Karen |
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Thanks Karen. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. That was the program I was considering and comparing to Queen's Language Lessons. I guess I picked the wrong one.
__________________
In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
Remembering Today
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ALmom
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| Posted: Sept 29 2008 at 5:27pm | IP Logged
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Molly, do you have any clues what works best or has been successful? When my children balk, in a serious way, and I figure it really is because something isn't working, I sit down with them and get them to be detective with me, if they are at all able to figure it out. I try to ask a pointed question or two. Honestly, this worked better with my daughters than my son. I did learn a bit more about the stress my son was feeling in the discussions and how hard he was trying. With him it was harder and we just kept trying different approaches and I tried to focus and celebrate success of any kind while not overwhelming the child with what seemed totally beyond him.
What is it that drives them nuts, is frustrating. One child was so frustrated with writing that he simply could not have told me anything, but he was trying awfully hard and simply hitting meltdown mode. I backed off all writing for a while. Then required he write in one subject only - simply answer questions in complete sentences. We did discover that when he wrote, he didn't retain information. When he read and had no writing, he retained almost everything. I, at that point, totally seperated writing from subject matter in terms of learning. If he was mad at the dog, I might assign him to write a sentence about the dog and we would correct it for very basic spelling and grammar. He did not write in complete sentences but in strings of run-ons. It was as if his brain had ideas faster than he could put them on paper and he just couldn't keep up. Computer helped some, but not a whole lot.
Our first breakthrough came as a total surprise and was one of those hair pulling moments when I was trying to figure out how to get him to string at least a few sentences together in a paragraph. He ended up writing a whole story about pirates, and very humorous and it was over 6 pages long. I think I'd heard him leading the littles in some very creative play and he had whole stories around the game. I asked him to create a story and when I got the totally blank stare, I suggested the story he'd been discussing in the game and offered to write it for him as he told me. He still had strings of run-ons, no organization or anything else. While he told, I just wrote. Once it was down on paper, we went back and I had tons of questions because a lot made no sense at all. But, somehow, somewhere in his head he had a picture. We sat down and he edited it with me while I asked natural questions trying to understand what in the world he was saying. Once we got the organization straight, I simply corrected spelling. He then went and typed the final copy. It was far from perfect but I didn't re-correct after the first editing. He needed to feel the accomplishment more than he needed to do another round of editing. This was a major breakthrough. It took us almost an entire year and was the only significant written work (words) for that year. Oh, and while I was working with him on it, a lot of other folks got sidetracked, but it was just what we had to do at the time.
We then did a co-op class a few years later with someone who taught the Padewa program and that helped some. I think it helped him to imitate the written things they were rewriting. The same year he took a Biology lab and wrote up very short labs (maybe 4-5 sentences). He labored, literally all week on those labs. I spoke privately with the teacher and it was an ungraded fun, lab anyways. It was another good learning point for him between these two classes.
I followed that co-op year with some Hillside study guides. I think we had planned to do four books. Realistically that was way too much for the child. Reading - no problem. Writing - torture. We finished one of the books, but doing that one carefully and editing and going step by step seemed to help. He had major improvement.
He still struggles big time with writing. I try to make it a regular part of school - but at a tolerable level for him while we work on things - ie several papers a year - goal being 4 total, but we may only get 2 right now. He still struggles and hates writing - but he hates writing anything, not just papers. We got Winston Grammar and for the first time in his life, he can distinguish nouns from verbs simply because he is not answering written questions.
This is a bright kid, he uses words orally in some very ingenious ways. He makes up things off the top of his head all the time around the dinner table. His use of information he reads is phenomenal and he has read more than all my other children put together. It is the one thing he does really well! Just don't ask him to fill out any dorky comprehension questions or write a paragraph. He probably would not test well. For history, religion or any other subject that we really want him to retain information, we don't have any writing beyond a timeline for the moment. I may occassionally test at his age simply to give practice but only when I'm sure he can be successful and I don't mark off for misspelled words and do not have essay questions with him yet. If I assign questions to answer or papers to write, he honestly doesn't retain anything. If I leave him be and let him read, he retains tons. (I hear him debating his sister using all those things he read about and they will each pull out their resources to prove the point). At this point writing is seperate from anything I want him to retain. Sometimes I've picked a book I know won't be his favorite anyway (Tirzah) because I know he is very familiar with the events described and whatever he has to write about, I know he'll not like the reading so he might as well not like it to begin with (and I tell him it may not be his favorite book and that is fine, we're just using it to practice writing). I pick something totally familiar regardless. I do my best to set him up for success. But as far as school subjects, if he has to write, he won't remember so what is the point. I'd rather he walk away learning.
I found some very interesting things about major Writing Block on diannecraft.org website. A lot of these articles are free. She also sold a manual for home therapy for about $40. A lot of the information and ideas are free and you could certainly try any that seemed relevant.
My next tactic with this child, beyond the therapy we are currently doing, is to print out a lot of the free graphic organizers that someone posted on the topic under visual learners. The least amount of writing the better. I also recently discovered that most of my children tend to be more spatial - big picture and find it hard to break things down into the small steps (never show work with math etc.) and so things like making outlines are simply one more torture. I'm hoping that maybe working with a more big picture starting point will help them begin to organize thoughts. We are currently, and have been for some time, in the midst of looking ourselves in terms of writing with this child. We did discover some things that explain some of the difficulties and I don't mind sharing if you PM me.
The main thing I can say is don't give up, (obviously you are not) but don't over demand and frustrate the child either. I've long ago learned to drop the grade level fear. I cannot push this child to write at grade level when there is obviously some reason that things are not yet connecting. We simply have to start where we are at and do the best to set him up for success while challenging him just enough to not totally frustrate him. I'd find what he can do and start there. Build from that one little, tiny step at a time and don't even try to demand polished essays if he isn't there. Offload the writing in subject areas if it interferes with his retention or bogs down the process. Our child was totally stressing on school - and starting at 8 and still pulling his hair out long after I wanted him to just put the books away (sometimes refusing to put things aside even at 8 PM). I simply kept adjusting until we had something reasonable going.
I am not a writing teacher so this is doubly hard as it is in an area where I totally lack confidence. I'm not sure any program would have worked simply because I had to carefully choose what things he wrote about or be totally flexible to seize the moment and write down when he told me something neat - kind of catch him creating with his siblings and then let him discover that that is all that writing is - only it is on paper. He has made steady progress since that first story and I have just adjusted to realize that we are doing fine as long as we are moving forward. He still is not writing anything like what most people would expect from the age. I try not to worry about that because he is truly doing the best that he can and we ARE moving forward. We are trying to address what we think are some of the particular challenges he faces and if these have contributed to the writing block as I think, then as they are addressed his writing should take off especially since he is such a huge reader.
Janet
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4Real Forums : Special Blessings
Topic: I think I belong here
