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melanie
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| Posted: May 02 2009 at 4:30pm | IP Logged
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ARRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!
Sorry, had to vent...
I've been using Saxon 3 with my 9yo this year, and it is a NIGHTMARE. I don't know if it's Saxon or just him. We're only on lesson 53, it is going very, very slowly, and has been very frustrating. He just can't handle the length of the lessons, and I can't really cut them down much because he needs all the practice he can get. Last year we used MUS, and he just really did not like it at all. He seemed to get very distracted with the blocks and did not like the lessons at all. I don't know if we should
--just stick it out with Saxon and just do half a lesson a day indefinitely and hope he somehow manages to catch up? Maybe it's not Saxon, or MUS, but just him, and any program is going to have us limping along like this? Because a lot of our problem is his attention. The lessons are long, and I have to redirect his attention 247 times over the course of a lesson.
--Or use something else altogether. I've been looking at teaching textbooks and really like what I've seen. I think working on the computer like that would really keep his attention and he would be able to work more quickly. But they don't even start until a 4th grade level and he's not quite there yet, so I would need to maybe find something relatively painless he can do during the summer to finish up these 3rd grade math skills...maybe just some kind of workbook. Any suggestions?
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Melanie
homeschooling Maria (13yo), Kain (10yo), Jack (5yo), Tess (2yo), and our newest blessing, Henry Robert, born 4/23!
slightlycrunchycatholic.blogspot.com
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Lauri B
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| Posted: May 02 2009 at 6:19pm | IP Logged
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{{{{{hugs}}}}}
I think it's both Saxon AND a 9 year old boy. ;) I tried Saxon with my eldest and didn't like the format at all. I've always been sort of CM-Waldorfy, though.
I like Teaching Textbooks from Pre-Algebra up, but haven't tried the young grades. (Young means, to me, 7th grade and under, LOL) I've never had much luck with formal math much before age 10.
Saxon is a "spiraling" curriculum, which is quite difficult for ADHD types, who often find the unit approach a bit more understandable.
With my AS/ADHD daughter (soon to be 11) I've had good luck with the Math Mammoth curriculum. I buy just the topical booklets I feel she needs to work on, and we don't use every single page necessarily.
I believe there's an article by the Bluedorns on the topic of boys & math - isn't there? Wait - I found it - Heavens! It's long. The summary's at the end. :)
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sailormom
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| Posted: May 06 2009 at 12:51pm | IP Logged
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I don't know if this helps, but Saxon didn't work at *all* for my ADHD (inattentive type) daughter, for exactly the same reasons you mention.
The thing that ended up working best for us is a program called "Math Steps" by Houghton Mifflin (you can find the workbooks on Amazon for about $10-12 depending on the grade level.) Although it's referred to as an "intervention" math program, it's keyed to California state math standards so it covers what I need it to cover. My oldest daughter used it for several years and rolled into Saxon Algebra 1 in 8th grade with absolutely no trouble at all.
The lesson models are stepped out and they're right at the top of the workbook page, so there's no page flipping or book shuffling. The pages are black and white, so they aren't visually distracting. There's a reasonable number of problems on each page also, which is less overwhelming for my daughter. Being able to write in the book also seems to help quite a bit.
Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there. :)
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4 lads mom
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| Posted: May 07 2009 at 8:20am | IP Logged
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I feel your pain, Sister! I have had the same hair pulling instances with my 9yo ds, with ADD and Saxon. It was...ugly. I bought the fourth grade Oak Meadow Math...and it is right up our alley. Gentle, not very stressful, not like a strict workbook, but a gentle workbook with lots of ideas for Mom to do also, games to play, etc.....we are only on lesson five, but I am thinking this is not too bad.
I am glad someone made the point about the spiral method not working very well for kiddos with ADD, that was sort of my gut feeling, now I have it validated.
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Taffy
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| Posted: May 07 2009 at 8:43am | IP Logged
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I know EXACTLY how you feel, Melanie! We've struggled with both Singapore math and Math U See. My son's issues make it easy for him to do algorithms (no problems with adding/subtracting/multiplying/division) but he has a very hard time with more abstract concepts like time and money. And don't get me started on word problems.
I had planned to chuck it all and use the Evergreen Curriculum as a guide to form our own math program but have not gotten very far with that yet. His biggest problems seem to center on concepts that he should have learned at kindergarten but still has trouble with (he's 12).
I'm not sure that there is a program out there that I'll like. I'm glad to know that Saxon didn't work for your son. I had a VERY strong feeling that it would not suit us. I do like Singapore Math but I'm finding that I have to think creatively more than I'd like.
I'm going to be checking out some of the programs mentioned here too. Thanks for starting this thread. Even if I end up staying the course we are on, it's so good to know that we aren't alone. 
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Susan
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ElizLeone
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| Posted: May 07 2009 at 8:51am | IP Logged
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We're having similar issues with my 8-year-old son who has attention issues, difficulties with short-term memory, and dyslexia. Math has been an unbelievable challenge for him. I recently purchased Math on the Level, and we're going to give it a whirl. It looks promising, albeit teacher-intensive.
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Lauri B
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| Posted: May 07 2009 at 8:56am | IP Logged
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Taffy wrote:
| His biggest problems seem to center on concepts that he should have learned at kindergarten but still has trouble with (he's 12). |
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I'm so glad you made this comment, Taffy. I think about this all the time. If math (or grammar or whatever) is a set of specific and finite skills to master, can we simply learn them when we learn them? I mean that sort of rhetorically. We're accustomed to math taking 180 lessons x 8 years of primary school, but it's really a finite amount of information. So, conceivably, wouldn't the best curriculum be able to explain this finite amount of information succinctly and in a finite amount of time? Well - not in 1,440 individual lessons, anyway.  Conceivably, couldn't there be math which doesn't have to be "kindergarten" level or "7th grade" but just math and we learn it when we learn it.
To me, Analytical Grammar provides that for Grammar. We used it a few years ago and I was so pleased to be able to cram "all" the grammar they need into one year. (We did it in one year at that time.)  Probably no such thing for basic math, eh?
Oh well!
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mom3aut1not
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Lauri,
Part of the problem with math instruction in this country is that math is *not* "a set of specific and finite skills to master." This approach is why our students get whomped in international competitions. To use math well, you need to be creative and flexible and have a strong conceptual grasp of the material. My mathematician father told me once that every good mathematician carried around several "models" in his head at all times and used whichever one fit the situation best for a given problems. Another way to say this is that there may be only one solution to a problem, but there can be several ways to get that solution.
In Christ,
Deborah
former PhD student in math, married to a PhD in math, and has a keen interest in math education and who must run right now
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Becky Parker
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| Posted: May 07 2009 at 12:40pm | IP Logged
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One thing I have found with my ds is that the manipulatives I often try to use for math, are the very thing that distracts him. (He has adhd.) For so long I have looked at the programs with manipulatives (like Saxon) because he is a kinesthetic (incorrect spelling?)learner. However, just give him cuisenaire rods, linking cubes, counting bears or whatever, and he is off in his own world building things, even if I am right there trying to teach him something. I'm beginning to wonder if he would be better off without the manipulatives.
When my daughter was younger, the manipulatives worked great to help her understand concepts. She is an auditory learner, not kinesthetic! Go figure!
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mom3aut1not
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| Posted: May 07 2009 at 2:54pm | IP Logged
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Becky,
Maybe an abacus like the one RightStart has would be helpful. You can't do much building with that!
In Christ,
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Deborah
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Becky Parker
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| Posted: May 08 2009 at 7:11am | IP Logged
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Thanks Deborah! After posting that I started thinking of things that he can't build with too. The hundreds board came to mind as I am starting to use that more with my other ds. I have an abacus. I'll have to get that out too!
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Becky
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Amanda
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| Posted: May 18 2009 at 10:57am | IP Logged
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Melanie,
First, I would ask (hoping this doesn't sound obnoxious) what you mean by "he needs all the practice he can get"? Does he forget concepts quickly? Make a lot of errors? Is there a way you can correct whatever the problem is without doing so much drill?
What about Aleks math? It wouldn't be my first choice, in a perfect world, but it's online and goes down to K, I believe. I believe you can do a free trial for a month.
http://www.aleks.com
HTH
Amanda
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ElizLeone
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| Posted: May 18 2009 at 11:29am | IP Logged
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Amanda,
I'd love to hear more about Aleks math. Have you used it? You say it wouldn't be your first choice. Do you mind elaborating? I don't want to hijack this thread, but my son's biggest issue is extremely poor short-term memory (conceptual understanding is rough though too). Would Aleks be good in such a case?
Elizabeth
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melanie
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| Posted: May 18 2009 at 2:55pm | IP Logged
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Hi, Yes, it's his memory... he just recently started remembering that an equal sign goes left to right and not up and down. Or which hand is the hour hand and which hand is the minute hand, or what a division sign looks like, that kind of thing. We'll work on something and he'll seem to get it, but the next day it's gone. He'll swear he's never even seen it. Then once we start, he'll remember somewhat, but not enough...takes lots and lots of repetition.
We have been using Saxon a bit more effectively, actually, the last couple of weeks. I've been using blank sheets to block off all but the problem he's working on, and we have been skipping the meeting part altogether. We are doing one side of the worksheet and then working on math facts using Math It, and that's all.
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Melanie
homeschooling Maria (13yo), Kain (10yo), Jack (5yo), Tess (2yo), and our newest blessing, Henry Robert, born 4/23!
slightlycrunchycatholic.blogspot.com
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ElizLeone
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| Posted: May 18 2009 at 2:59pm | IP Logged
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Melanie,
Are you describing my 8-year-old son????
They sound like peas in a pod...
Elizabeth
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Amanda
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| Posted: May 18 2009 at 9:26pm | IP Logged
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ElizLeone wrote:
I'd love to hear more about Aleks math. Have you used it? You say it wouldn't be your first choice. Do you mind elaborating?
Elizabeth |
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I'm sorry to say that I don't remember it well enough to give you a good idea of what it's like.
For my ds (who has Asperger's and attention issues), I seem to remember that the presentation was too dry for him. At the time, he was about 9, and we were using Singapore, which he loved for its "mathematical thinking" aspect. I believe Aleks was too "here's how to do this kind of problem--now go do it" for him.
I will try to find a minute to poke around on the site and refresh my memory, but in the meantime, I wanted to send a quick reply.
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ElizLeone
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| Posted: May 18 2009 at 9:47pm | IP Logged
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Thanks, Amanda. I appreciate your input.
Elizabeth
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12stars
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| Posted: June 30 2009 at 1:19am | IP Logged
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I was gong to post about this today but in the math forum. If I could multi quote everyone here I would, I really would, but because it is so many of you I won't. I am in the same circumstance as most of you.
My dd is 9 going into the 4th grade and does not like math at all. I have never had her tested for ADD but she really fits the criteria. So we learn a new concept and she forgets it a day later. My husband did not believe me till one day he tried to do 1 lesson with her. She forgot how to do it moments later...
So we have tried
MEP
Shiller Math
Mammoth Math
Time 4 Learning Math
K12
and random worksheets
She LOVES color and so I was thinking of
Horizons 3rd grade for her but I am just not sure. I feel disillusioned that I can even teach her math.
Ditto on the Oak Meadow I am going to give that a shot and hopefully she enjoys it and she does not feel over whelmed.
I really want to be able to stick to one thing for her, she is nothing like my other girls that like the math curriculums that they are doing and now that she is going into 4th grade sometimes I wonder if we will ever get it right for her. I am glad that this thread was started I did get positive affirmation that I am not the only one going through this.
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melanie
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| Posted: June 30 2009 at 8:11am | IP Logged
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Hi Claudia, well, I started this thread 2 months ago, and since then I've completely solved all our problems.
Haha! No, of course I didn't. Here's what we are doing though. And this is just what's working for us.
I am still using Saxon 3. I looked at lots of different programs, but I just didn't see anything that seemed like it was definitely going to work better, and my budget is so that I can't experiment much. I already own Saxon, so making that work was most attractive to me. And the thing that drives so many people batty with Saxon, the spiral review, is exactly what he needs with his very poor memory. So, on the advice of a friend, we cut the meeting out, and we cut out one side of the worksheets. I teach the new concept, and we do one side of the worksheet together, and he does a fact practice sheet. Much shorter. This is working for now...if he starts having too hard a time with new material, then I plan to slow it down and do the entire lesson, but broken up over two days.
When we finish Saxon 3, I will take the tests from Saxon 54 and start giving him the tests until he scores less than a 90%, and that might let us skip a bit at the beginning of Saxon 54. In this way, if with maturity he is able to retain this stuff better, we can move along more quickly and maybe eventually he will be on the grade level he is "supposed" to be on.
Maybe not. Maybe he'll always lag behind in math. Then it's my job to learn to accept that. 
We are still using the blank sheets of paper to blocck off all but the problem he is working on. That's been great. I'm also thinking about getting one of those 3 sided science fair posterboards and letting him kind of wrap that around his workspace so that he can block out some distractions.
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Melanie
homeschooling Maria (13yo), Kain (10yo), Jack (5yo), Tess (2yo), and our newest blessing, Henry Robert, born 4/23!
slightlycrunchycatholic.blogspot.com
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Jenn Sal
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Bumping this.....looking for a 7th grade math program for someone with ADHD. Actually, I have someone who is borderline ADHD. We're using Teaching Textbooks right now, and how they explain how to do some equations just has too many steps. My husband and I end up showing her shorter ways that we learned. I would prefer something on-line, but textbooks may be better...less distractions to click all around.
Thank you!
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Jennifer, Texas
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4Real Forums : Special Blessings
Topic: math and ADHD
