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melanie
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| Posted: March 05 2010 at 7:12am | IP Logged
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Has anyone ever read "When Love Isn't Enough"? I've read it, my dh is reading it now, and I'm stewing over it...just wondering if anyone else has read it.
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Melanie
homeschooling Maria (13yo), Kain (10yo), Jack (5yo), Tess (2yo), and our newest blessing, Henry Robert, born 4/23!
slightlycrunchycatholic.blogspot.com
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drmommy
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| Posted: March 05 2010 at 7:37am | IP Logged
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No, I haven't...what is it about?
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melanie
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| Posted: March 05 2010 at 8:20am | IP Logged
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It's about parenting children with attachment disorders...usually kids that are foster children or adopted as older children and have suffered abuse/neglect from an early age and so they are very damaged. My 9yo is actually my nephew, and he has a lot of these issues. Not as severe as some of what is described in the book...he's not torturing pets or setting the house on fire or anything like that...but typical parenting techniques make no impact on him at all. He's been with us for 3 1/2 years now, and I just feel like we've made all the progress we can make with hugs and kisses and bedtime stories, you know? We are kind of hitting a wall. He's improved a good bit over the years, but there are a lot of core "heart" issues...he is extremely self-centered, sneaky, uncooperative, etc....we basically just do battle with him all day long with all kinds of small, stupid issues all day long. Basically he just doesn't accept us as having any kind of authority over him at all. It worries me tremendously because this is not the kind of person that is going to grow up to be a good husband/father unless we can really reach his heart. He's been at a therapeutic day treatment place since November, and they are talking about discharging him in a few weeks. I'm wanting to do something very different when he comes home, and this book is different all right, lol. My dh really wants to try it. I am willing, it makes a lot of sense, but some of the techniques seem a bit harsh to me. I was just hoping maybe someone had had some experience with it. We've been homeschooling him for the last couple of school years, and he really wants to keep homeschooling, but I've told him the rest of this school year is his last chance, I won't keep doing it if things don't change radically. It's just killing me, and he takes more time and energy than all the other kids put together!
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Melanie
homeschooling Maria (13yo), Kain (10yo), Jack (5yo), Tess (2yo), and our newest blessing, Henry Robert, born 4/23!
slightlycrunchycatholic.blogspot.com
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RyaneM
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| Posted: March 05 2010 at 11:39am | IP Logged
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Melanie,
Have you heard of Dr. Karen Purvis? She wrote a book, The Connected Child about these same types of things. She does a lot of work with our adoption agency, Gladney. You should google her. You can get several of her talks for free online.
HTH,
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Mama to ds (3/05), ds(1/09) and dd (4/10)
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mavmama
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| Posted: March 05 2010 at 1:37pm | IP Logged
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it's a tough read but if you are living with an unattached child, it helps assure you that YOU are not going crazy (though many professionals will tell you you are).
We have been there, done that, and are doing it now, everyday. Thankfully, we have a few very good therapists and things are better.
I reccomend goint to nancythomasparneting.com and looking up a trained therapist in your area. It will be hard work; it will hurt; it will help. PM me if you'd like to "talk"--it's a heavy cross to carry.
ETA: "Parenting With Love and Logic" is a great book for this kind of thing, too. I think there is one for toddlers and adolescents. The author, Foster Cline, founded the Attachment Center at Evergreen where they do awesome work. I highly reccomend this book to anyone who wants their kids to be responsible for their own choices.
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Liz
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Carole N.
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| Posted: March 06 2010 at 7:15am | IP Logged
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We have read this book several times. There is a lot in it to help parents learn about attachment. I have loaned this book to other parents as well. There are many different theories about working with children who have rad. I have always come back to Nancy Thomas and Foster Cline. I do not believe that there is a right or wrong answer--each child is different. You just have to perserve in learning and trying new ideas.
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melanie
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| Posted: March 06 2010 at 8:17am | IP Logged
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Thanks Carole and Liz,
I guess I'm trying to figure out if I agree with some points she makes about some of the behavior....especially things like "forgetting"...there's many examples I could give,but I'll use mealtimes as an example. Kain is absolutely nauseating to eat a meal with, and mealtimes are always tense and prone to disaster, either because of his atrocious manners or atrocious behavior. Now, we probably entrenched the bad manners because we ignored them for a while (he's been here 3 1/2 years). When he first came here, at age 6, he could barely use a fork and spoon and was hyperactive that just getting him to sit in a chair was difficult. He was very immature and I figured he would pick up on table manners with modeling and time. Wrong-o! So, we have tried different things, talking to him about his manners and why it's important for him to learn to eat politely, reminders, etc. Nothing has worked. We are not formal people, I'm not talking about high tea here or anything. He picks apart his food and eats with his fingers, rocks in his chair so frequently that he finally managed to fall and break one the other day, eats so much so fast that chewing with his mouth closed is impossible and occassionally to the point where he has to run from the table to vomit, wiping hands on his clothes instead of using a napkin, etc. It goes on during every single meal the entire time. I either have to nag about every single thing he does during the entire meal until he is in a screaming rage, or ignore him and have the rest of us suffer in silence. So, she talks about this in her book, how this kind of behavior is done with a purpose, to destroy mealtime/family times, and that you should, on the first offense, send them from the room to eat alone. I hesitate to act in this way because I'm not convinced he is doing it on purpose. And there are dozens of instances like this, "forgetting", forgetting to wipe after bowel movements, forgetting how to wash his hair properly, forgetting to put caps/lids back on everything from milk to toothpaste, forgetting to flush, forgetting how to comb his hair or floss/brush properly, forgetting to put his clothes in the hamper, forgetting to hang up his coat, I could go on and on. I know all kids forget, I don't expect not to ever have to remind him about things, but this goes on *all day long* and has for three years now. He will even "forget" parts of a task when I bring him back to do it, like if I remind him to wash his hands after using the bathroom he will come out with his hands dripping wet because he "forgot" to dry them. Or I'll have to call him back into a room three times to pick up a mess, because each time he will only pick up part of it, that kind of thing. Her theory is that this is all done intentionally and needs to be treated as such. I guess, either way, using her methods, those behaviors would be extinguished pretty fast, but man, things will sure be tense around here the first few weeks, lol....
My dh firmly believes it is intentional, and that's why he likes this book so much. The "forgetting" behaviors aren't the worst of his behaviors, but it's definitely what affects our lives most frequently.
Thanks, Ryane, for the other recommendation, I will check that out!
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Melanie
homeschooling Maria (13yo), Kain (10yo), Jack (5yo), Tess (2yo), and our newest blessing, Henry Robert, born 4/23!
slightlycrunchycatholic.blogspot.com
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: March 10 2010 at 12:24am | IP Logged
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I have to second (third) the Nancy Thomas and Foster Cline recs. From my experience back in our fostering days it is the only thing that works. And what you describe sounds painfully familiar. I hope you can find a good therapist that has a real understanding of attachment issues and takes your concerns seriously.
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Michiel
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| Posted: March 11 2010 at 11:25am | IP Logged
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This has been helpful. I got on the Nancy Thomas site and looked into her camps, and there is one not too far away this summer. it looks really good. My ds hasn't been diagnosed with attatchment disorder, (no, JUST ADHD and bipolar) but he is adopted, and he seems to me to have an unhealthy obsession with things, and he's very difficult day in and day out.
I've printed out the info and have an appt. with his psychiatrist today and will run this idea by her.
I always like to see if there are other ways to tackle problems, and this looks good. Thank you again.
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Michiel
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melanie
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| Posted: March 12 2010 at 6:55am | IP Logged
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My nephew has been diagnosed the same...ADHD and bipolar disorder. *I* have diagnosed him with attachment disorder.  I mean, I know it's not official, but there are so many personality issues that are lining up here, and his history matches too. I've talked to his therapists about it, and they agree. I haven't seen his doctor yet about it.
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Melanie
homeschooling Maria (13yo), Kain (10yo), Jack (5yo), Tess (2yo), and our newest blessing, Henry Robert, born 4/23!
slightlycrunchycatholic.blogspot.com
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CatholicMommy
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| Posted: March 12 2010 at 11:30am | IP Logged
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From what I've been able to discern (having not read the book), I think it is all worth a try. I spend a great deal of time with a girl who exhibits many of the same behaviors you describe, as well as others that fall in the detachment disorder category.
While I don't believe that *everything* she does is intentional, the habits have been set to just "not care" to try to remember, and it makes certain aspects of relating to her extremely difficult. To the point of tears sometimes.
I have been working with her specifically, guiding her through each. and. every. step. It's a lot of intensity, but the improvements made thus far have been totally worth it. Her father has been working with her to develop a better routine; adding something new every week or so after the previous one has been relatively established. And we are talking extreme routine.
And it works!
I would think that by sending him to his room to eat alone, it will bring attention to his behavior without "destroying" family meals. Just make sure he doesn't then throw a fit and destroy his room. 
By walking him through every step of handwashing or whatever it is, it will bring attention to what needs to be remembered.
It will be intense for a while, but the outcome will be so worth it. And even if it doesn't work the way you want, at least you'll *know* (and not be wondering for the rest of your life "what if we'd done...?")
We'll be praying!
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hsmom
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| Posted: April 29 2010 at 2:47pm | IP Logged
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Dandelion on My Pillow Butcher Knife Underneath by Nancy Thomas is like reading case studies of how When Love is Not Enough is put into action. It showed how it played out in everyday life. I also like the Connected Child. Oh, and throw in a little of Have a New Kid by Friday by Kevin Leman. It's hard finding out what works for your child. It is a journey.
Blessings, Valerie
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Michiel
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| Posted: April 29 2010 at 3:56pm | IP Logged
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I've been reading The Explosive Child, and my goodness, the case studies are EXACTLY my ds.
We are going to try some of the methods in the book, as things have gotten worse around here lately, and what I am doing doesn't work. Also, working on the medicine end, but that will only take you so far.
I tried the Nancy Thomas camps, but they were full, like on the first day they were available.
I think what this tells me is that there is such an epidemic of children with these problems, and the way our world is now, they are just not able to adapt and adjust. Additives in food, pollutants in our environments, increased expectations, so much more structure, etc.
Would love to hear others' comments about this.
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Michiel
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hsmom
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| Posted: Sept 16 2010 at 8:43am | IP Logged
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I know this is an old post, but I also wanted to mention another method that I have found out about that is very different from the When Love is Not Enough approach. It is explained in the book Beyond Consequences, Logic, and Control by Heather Forbes. There are actually 3 books in the series, 2 of which can be gotten through the inter library loan program if not in your own library. I have to say though, that for me it wasn't until I splurged and bought the Beyond Consequences Live DVD set that I really understood how to implement. But Forbes does give "free" seminars through out the U.S. - your book is your ticket in.
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4Real Forums : Special Blessings
Topic: attachment disorders
