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JennGM
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| Posted: July 20 2006 at 1:45pm | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I apologize to Theresa and to CHC for making this public. |
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Elizabeth, Having experienced twice in the past few weeks having misunderstandings through emails and posts, I know the emotions you are going through.
But, be assured, you did not in any way bash CHC. I don't think you need to apologize for just making sure someone else doesn't make the same mistake and get stuck with some materials you decided against. You were not saying "CHC stinks because they have a shrink-wrap policy and I'll never order again" but merely that you missed that, are stuck with some books, and heads up for anyone else. I clearly can see that.
You have been very positive with CHC online all over this forum -- and have stirred other people to relook and order from them because of your positive remarks.
In short, don't be upset and don't give it another thought, Elizabeth.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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Jen L.
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| Posted: July 20 2006 at 1:50pm | IP Logged
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Here are a few of the links that Elizabeth refers to above -- VERY Positive about CHC!
CHC again
CHC Highschool of Your Dreams
Scroll down in this thread to read what Elizabeth had to say
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Jen
dh Klete,ds (8/95),dd (12/97), dd (11/00), and ^2^ in heaven
"...the best state in which to glorify God is our actual state; the best grace is that of the moment..." St. Peter Eymard
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Jen L.
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| Posted: July 20 2006 at 1:50pm | IP Logged
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Ditto what Jenn said. Really.
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8kids4me
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| Posted: July 20 2006 at 2:00pm | IP Logged
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((hugs)) Elizabeth!!
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KASB
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| Posted: July 20 2006 at 2:05pm | IP Logged
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JennGM wrote:
| Elizabeth, Having experienced twice in the past few weeks having misunderstandings through emails and posts, I know the emotions you are going through. |
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I admit I am sometimes hesitant to post to this board because it is read by so many, and I do worry sometimes about misunderstandings or things posted being passed on in a way that I had not intended. I think in Jenn's case as well as Elizabeth's, the person who felt the need to forward the post should have first checked with the original writer before sending the post off to a third party. Misunderstanding or concerns could be resolved without causing public embarrassment. It seems to me to be a matter of "internet courtesy".
Blessings,
Kym
mom to 9 (8 boys-23,13,10,8,7,4,2,11 mos. and 1 girl-22)
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: July 20 2006 at 2:33pm | IP Logged
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Elizabeth,
I really wouldn't worry about it. I don't think anything you wrote earlier was disparaging to CHC. I simply took it as a warning to double check their policies on certain items before ordering. I do find it disappointing that someone felt they had to "tell" on you - though I suppose it's a good reminder to all of us that we are not in a private conversation and many people are reading. Sadly, we know that even when one has good intentions (as I believe you did) things can easily be taken the wrong way by others who, for whatever reason, are not assuming charity of the writer.
As a small family business I can understand CHC's position and I'm sure you do as well - but it's sad because what it comes down to is that a few have spoiled it for all.
God bless,
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Michele Quigley
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: July 20 2006 at 4:35pm | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
I'm feeling a bit "Brave-New-Worldish." ...I should have called Theresa before I let you all know, but I do admit to being a bit more than a bit embarrassed that someone informed her before I had that chance, particularly since I said I was going to call....I do understand the return policy. I think my frustration had more to do with the fact that when I finally sat down to order (after reading the catalog a million times), I wasn't looking at the page that said the product was shrink-wrapped....It's not CHC's fault. It's entirely my fault. But I'm still frustrated ...I have seven children for whom to plan--it gets confusing sometimes to keep every child and every item and every company straight.
I apologize to Theresa and to CHC for making this public. |
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No worries, Elizabeth. OK, OK, if you were perfect and your circumstances simple, perhaps you would have contacted Theresa first and then brought this glitch to our attention afterward. OR, if Theresa was perfect and her circumstances simple, she would have found a way to consistently note the shrinkwrap policy throughout her webpage and catalog. OR if readers here were perfect and their circumstances simple, they would not forward information that could be misunderstood and would trust those directly involved with a situation to deal with it. Sheesh...a little mercy here, please!
To Elizabeth and Theresa, thank you both for putting yourselves out there to serve our Catholic hs community. May God continue to bless you for your efforts.
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: July 20 2006 at 6:23pm | IP Logged
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ahhhhhhhhhh...hugs to you. Sometimes its so easy to be misunderstood over the internet. I hate it when these squishy kinds of things happen.
I didn't take your post as unkind toward CHC, and considering how often CHC is discussed here in the most glowing of terms, I can't imagine anyone assuming anything but the best.
Its a good reminder though of how easy it is to cut and paste information (too easy, imho).
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~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Sarah
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I agree, don't worry. Someone may have seen Theresa personally and mentioned it at a hs event, or something and the thing just seemed bigger than it was.
I don't think it was a big deal. It IS hard to pick curricula and I have SO MANY things that would work for someone, just NOT US. I feel so sorry for dh sometimes when he sees those losses, financially. 
Hugs 
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Six boys ages 16, 14, 11, 7, 5, 2 and one girl age 9
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KC in TX
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| Posted: July 20 2006 at 9:49pm | IP Logged
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Ditto what everyone else said.
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KC,
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Karen E.
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| Posted: July 22 2006 at 2:20pm | IP Logged
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Angie Mc wrote:
| OK, OK, if you were perfect and your circumstances simple, perhaps you would have contacted Theresa first and then brought this glitch to our attention afterward. OR, if Theresa was perfect and her circumstances simple, she would have found a way to consistently note the shrinkwrap policy throughout her webpage and catalog. OR if readers here were perfect and their circumstances simple, they would not forward information that could be misunderstood and would trust those directly involved with a situation to deal with it. Sheesh...a little mercy here, please! |
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How wonderfully put, Angie.
And, hugs to you, Elizabeth. Too many of us have been there.
These forums can feel so intimate, as if a few girlfriends are chatting, but you just never know. I wouldn't worry about it, though. You said nothing critical ... just expressed some disappointment to "the girlfriends." 
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Karen E.
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Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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Leonie
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| Posted: July 22 2006 at 8:51pm | IP Logged
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for you, Elizabeth!
FWIW, I didn't read your comment as critical - just as sharing. And I think that sharing is the beauty of these boards..
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ladybugs
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| Posted: July 23 2006 at 11:34am | IP Logged
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Elizabeth,
I didn't take your post as anything negative towards CHC. I just took it as a mother who is trying to watch her pennies and was venting her frustration with a situation.
For whatever it's worth
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Maria P
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JennGM
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I wanted to revisit this...not the shrink-wrap, but what CHC says warrants the shrink-wrap: abuse of copyright.
Understanding Copyright laws is a problem that many "orthodox" Catholics don't seem to grasp. Perhaps our mission should be to show others that we are not above the law. Even if we can't afford to purchase something can never warrant copying tapes, cds, DVDs, VHS, workbook pages, or any type of book to share with others.
Within our own family's use, we can copy some pages or tapes. Say I buy a cd, but I want to listen with a tape player. Since it's for my own personal use, that's fine. But copying it so someone else can hear is against copyright laws. It's never right. Not only are you breaking laws, but you are taking money away from someone who has spent time and effort and finances to produce something...and perhaps losing an opportunity for others to share in that resource because they can't afford to stay open.
Maybe we should have discussions to talk about what is and isn't allowed. Curriculum, syllabi, have certain laws. Sheet music and recorded music have their own laws, too. And how as Catholics we are never above the law...
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Maddie
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What an eye opening post, Jenn. I hope to see this discussed. The water can get pretty murkey with this topic. I for one would love clarification so I may be an honest Catholic and good example to my children when using my resources. We have a VERY limited income with which to raise our brood, so how we can be resourceful and honest?
For example is it okay to copy a MODG syllabus so I may mark it up as I please for each child? I thought this was an easy answer. I'm not giving it away / selling it but I shouldn't have to buy the entire thing again, right? Can I copy a Latin workbook for my other children to use?
I would never think to buy something, copy it then expect my money back. But if I buy a workbook for one child it's not ok to copy it?
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Meredith
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JennGM wrote:
I wanted to revisit this...not the shrink-wrap, but what CHC says warrants the shrink-wrap: abuse of copyright.
Understanding Copyright laws is a problem that many "orthodox" Catholics don't seem to grasp. Maybe we should have discussions to talk about what is and isn't allowed. Curriculum, syllabi, have certain laws. Sheet music and recorded music have their own laws, too. And how as Catholics we are never above the law... |
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Great idea Jenn, maybe we should start this in the Fireside Chat!!
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Meredith
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jdostalik
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threesilosfarm wrote:
I would never think to buy something, copy it then expect my money back. But if I buy a workbook for one child it's not ok to copy it?
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Maddie,
I do think it is against copyright laws to copy a workbook and use it for more than one child. If you look at it this way, you are denying the author a fair share of his profits and are continuing to use the workbook (which is a consumable item) way beyond its intended one-time use.
I know that Steve Demme of Math U See has addressed this in his MUS workbooks--you must purchase a new workbook for each student...
Just my understanding of this one small area!
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God Bless,
Jennifer in TX
wife to Bill, mom to six here on earth and eight in heaven.
Let the Little Ones Come
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: July 24 2006 at 7:26am | IP Logged
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It's been interesting to me to compare return policies of larger curriculum companies. I understand copyright protection necessity. (Though I can't imagine someone standing at the copier with Devotional Stories for Little Folks).
What Ive been pondering is how best to guide new homeschoolers in their purchases. CHC was not readily available at conferences locally, so you can't touch and read the items. Sonlight is rarely represented at conferences either (I've never seen them at a Cahtolic conference).
Sonlight's policy invites "total package buyers" to use those lesson plans for twelve weeks (or however long it takes you to get through twelve weeks of lessons). If you don't like it or it doesn't fit with your family, return it. If you don't buy a total package, you can still return anything purchased within sixty days.
How can they do that? Their lesson plans are three-hole punched and could easily be copied. Are Protestants more honest than Catholics?
CHC encourages us to ask around and solicit reviews from other users. Certainly we do that but we are usually pretty careful when offering a review of a product to talk about the positives and let the negatives go unspoken. We want to encourage the writer of the product and we want Catholic providers to do well. That might be a disservice to everybody. Remember, if someone is buying based on your review, they need to know everything, because, even if something can be returned, return shipping adds up over a while.
This is a tough situation all the way around--we certainly don't want an undue strain on curriculum providers wrt to abuse of refunding. But we can't recommend products wholeheartedly without really considering someone else's need and budget, can we, particularly if the product cannot be returned? Personally, I'm inclined to never recommend something non-returnable, expecially pricey lesson plans. It's just such a personal preference area and it's usually a huge chunk of change.
Further recommendations need to be very careful to include all potential cons along with glowing pros if we are going to use those recommendations as our sole guide for purchases...
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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JennGM
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| Posted: July 24 2006 at 7:42am | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
This is a tough situation all the way around--we certainly don't want an undue strain on curriculum providers wrt to abuse of refunding. But we can't recommend products wholeheartedly without really considering someone else's need and budget, can we, particularly if the product cannot be returned? Personally, I'm inclined to never recommend something non-returnable, expecially pricey lesson plans. It's just such a personal preference area and it's usually a huge chunk of change.
Further recommendations need to be very careful to include all potential cons along with glowing pros if we are going to use those recommendations as our sole guide for purchases... |
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Budget is a huge consideration for probably everyone here. No one likes to spend money on something they can't use.
I agree that potential cons need to be included. Not bashing, but clear explanations...even if the con is just related to the type of learning style in one's children.
On a little tangent, the little of CHC's grammar booklet "The Language of God" amuses me. Are we saying that God speaks English?  
For discussions on copyright, I did start a new thread and moved some of the posts over here in Fireside Chat. Please visit and contribute.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Family in Feast and Feria
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Elizabeth
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And perhaps we need to brainstorm ways to help the providers get out there as vendors. The ladies I went to IHM with were all disappointed in the lack of vendors. And I've heard that NACHE was sparse as well. From the vendors perspective, the tables were pricey, business was slow, and vendors had to pay to give talks  . Vendor talks weren't taped. Often, a vendor talk is just the talk you want to take home with you after you've purchsed the product. And they are usually some of the most passionate talks because the speaker is so intimate with her topic. How can we encourage vendors to let us see their stuff? And how can we make it worthwhile for everyone?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Curriculum Returning and Refunding
