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BrendaPeter
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Is there a list out there for high schoolers that includes mostly classics?
I remember Elizabeth posted a high school list several years ago. Is it in the back of "Real Learning"?
Also, when your dc read books in high school, do you require a paper at the end or more frequently? Where do you find paper topics, especially when mom hasn't necessarily read the book?
Thx!
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Bookswithtea
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For 9th grade, we are doing 2 units...one on poetry, one on a series of short stories, and a third unit that includes 2 novels and a Shakespeare play. The poetry and short story units are based on oral discussion. I have questions I'm asking (from another program...I didn't make them up myself) and we discuss it. These two units have final exams.
For the novels, each book has an exam at the end. I am still inclined to make discussion a bigger focus than writing at this age, because most 9th graders are just now learning what it means to pick apart a novel and discuss theme/rising action/climax/point of view of the author etc as opposed to narrating the basic gist of the story. I do have essay questions on the tests that cover this kind of thing, but there has been plenty of discussion on it in the weeks before. Next year I will expect papers, probably at the end of the book, but discussion will still be a huge part of the program.
I don't cover books that don't have Cliff notes type information for mom.  I just don't have time to read that many novels!
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~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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BrendaPeter
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Thank you Books,
That was very helpful. How did you come up with your list for 9th grade? Are you enrolled in a program?
I'll try to read this thread today as I suspect your answer may be there!
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Bookswithtea
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I have a hs mom friend I really trust who used to teach medieval and British literature at a respected 4 yr college before she had kids. I called her and picked her brain for at least 2 hrs for what is typical of most 9th grade literature classes. She was the one who suggested I split the year into three units. She was adamant about the importance of *short* stories in the 9th grade, and said that every child needs to at least read The Cask of Amontillado in 9th grade. She also gave me a head's up on a short story that is commonly read in high school...something House on Mango Street, I think? In her opinion, it has been added to most lists in an attempt to find works that are not European (its a Latin American story), but she isn't convinced that it is as good of a story as what normally appears in short story collections. She also said that every year, the child should read/analyze at least one Shakespeare play and that Dickens is almost as important as Shakespeare, and then said that the other three years should be world lit, American lit and British lit...not necessarily in that order. So I am following her suggestions and looking for the novels myself, and then double checking with her to make sure they are grade level appropriate.
Her 10th grade dd is going to be an English major so she is reading higher level literature than what I ended up planning for my ds for 9th grade. But she did clear my list as typical of a regular college prep class, which is what I was aiming for in this subject with ds.
So! With that in mind, I bought Kolbe's Jr. High Literature program. This is the most *user friendly* lit. program for mom that I have ever used. Two thumbs up. Some of the lit. is definitely not high school level, but I was able to skip those books and then modify it for 9th grade, and also make it good for a boy. She helped me with the gender thing too, as I really cannot imagine ds reading Little Women or Ibsen's A Doll's House.
We did the Kolbe poetry unit as designed, and I altered the test a bit (because I can never leave well enough alone  ). I added 3 more short stories to the Kolbe program (Cask, Rip Van Winkle, and Stephen Crane's The Open Boat...if I were designing for a girl, I would have included the French author who wrote The Necklace, and perhaps Ibsen, but since Doll's House is a feminist work I'm still not sure if I want to do it). I searched the net for freebie notes and discussion questions for these three additions. I will add questions from these stories to the Kolbe test, probably cut a few questions I don't like, and add in some other stuff.
We chose The Merchant of Venice for our Shakespeare play, and our novels are Robinson Crusoe and Tom Sawyer. If we finish early and come in under 80 hours (required for NARS), I will add another novel.
She oked the following novels from the Kolbe Jr. high list as high school level, but not necessarily honors level:
Tom Sawyer
A Tale of Two Cities
Merchant of Venice
Oliver Twist
Out of the Silent Planet
Pride and Prejudice
Red Badge of Courage
Screwtape Letters (I think)
Robinson Crusoe
Kidnapped
Uncle Tom's Cabin
Where the Red Fern Grows (I think)
She did say that the CS Lewis novels are never on standard high school lists, and would likely be disregarded by an English professor, but that doesn't mean they aren't worth reading (she is an evangelical with Catholic sympathies).
So anyway, that's how I chose what I did. Clear as mud? And probably way more information than you were looking for. 
Edited to add: I added Rip Van Winkle, not The Legend of Sleepy Hollow, which is already included in the Kolbe program...both Irving stories but I always get them confused in my head.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Erin
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Brenda
I have just posted a long list on my blog that includes many classics. I tend to pull the lists together from other lists, I've a box on my sidebar of 'booklists' I've found these booklists full of great recommendations. The Angelicum Academy has many classics. I don't require anything but I would like to 
On that note, Books,
I'd like to know more about Kolbe's junior lit. program. what are they wanting your child to do besides read? What do you mean by not highschool level? Too easy or hard?
Regards short stories, is it just a matter of reading them? How are you going about analyzing Shakespeare? How are you 'studying' poetry? Do you just read and enjoy or do you do something else?
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Bookswithtea
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Erin wrote:
On that note, Books,
I'd like to know more about Kolbe's junior lit. program. what are they wanting your child to do besides read? What do you mean by not highschool level? Too easy or hard?
Regards short stories, is it just a matter of reading them? How are you going about analyzing Shakespeare? How are you 'studying' poetry? Do you just read and enjoy or do you do something else?
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Some of the novels and short stories are more jr. high level than high school. That's why I added a few short stories and was careful about the novels I picked.
There are questions (and answer keys) and writing assignments in the Kolbe program for everything. We are skipping most of the writing assignments because we are doing a lot of writing in other subjects this year. I use the questions for oral discussion. Between the daily reading and the questions, its less than an hour a day except for the week he studies for the tests. Some of the questions are fairly easy/reading comprehension type questions and some require more thought.
The poetry unit was harder than the short story unit, imho. They learn about rhyme and meter and find examples in the poems, they compare and contrast two poems with, say, war themes but not from the same viewpoint, they memorize the authors, classify poems as ballads, narratives, look for examples of alliteration, cliche, etc... stuff like that. Kolbe includes all this information so I didn't have to go looking elsewhere for everything. The short story section focused more on rising action/climax etc.., classifying it according to what the struggle is (man vs. nature, protagonist vs. antagonist etc), stuff like that.
Overall, I think the tests have been decent...not too many dumb questions. I do alter them to make them a bit more challenging sometimes, but I probably leave in about 85% of it. I realize testing is not the best way to finish off a lit. unit, but its working for us since the vast majority of what we do is oral...I do need some sort of paper trail...Next year I plan on writing in lit. rather than religion.
Ds is learning a lot, and now understands much better what comparing and contrasting is. In the beginning I got stupid answers like, "both authors are from England" but now I'm getting more appropriate answers.
We haven't done the novel or Shakespeare unit yet, so I don't know that section off the top of my head.
I do feel that the $100 I spent on the program was well spent, considering I can still use it with 7th-8th graders as well (particularly the unit on the Vision Saint series).
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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BrendaPeter
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Thx Erin for the booklist and thank you Books for all your great advice. I've been thinking about Dickens alot lately so it's funny that you mentioned him. Also, I can't believe you're using that Kolbe Lit course since I was planning on doing the same in high school next year. It includes classics that we already own and whether the student reads them in 8th grade or 9th grade, I do see a big difference.
I actually have Kolbe's Lit course from 2 years ago when we were enrolled. We're missing a majority of the books from the course since it wasn't finished at the time. I did pay for it, I'm wondering if they'll send me the rest of it. Is the poetry section part of that?
Have you seen The Well-Educated Mind by SWB? It's covers lots of classics in great detail. It's definitely cheaper than getting a Norton Anthology but, as you mentioned, there's also tons of stuff on the internet. Also, I bought a Shakespeare study guide from Rainbow Resources a few years ago that looks like it could be useful.
How is NARS working out as I'm thinking we'll also go that route.
Thx a bunch!
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Bookswithtea
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BrendaPeter wrote:
| I actually have Kolbe's Lit course from 2 years ago when we were enrolled. We're missing a majority of the books from the course since it wasn't finished at the time. I did pay for it, I'm wondering if they'll send me the rest of it. Is the poetry section part of that? |
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I'm not enrolled, so I bought everything in pieces. I bought the syllabus, the short story and the poetry booklets directly from them since it was just easier. I bought the novels from Amazon.
BrendaPeter wrote:
| Have you seen The Well-Educated Mind by SWB? It's covers lots of classics in great detail. It's definitely cheaper than getting a Norton Anthology but, as you mentioned, there's also tons of stuff on the internet. Also, I bought a Shakespeare study guide from Rainbow Resources a few years ago that looks like it could be useful. |
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I know some moms who are trying to do the WEM thing. I haven't read the book in any detail, though. I do own Invitation to the Classics (Os Guinness), which is a mildly protestant text (harmless, imho) that goes over authors and major works from the ancients onward. This year we just use it when it applies to what we are reading. I think I'll be using it more in later years. It was less than $20 on Amazon. I bought it on recommendation from Carole Joy Seid, a hs speaker that I really get a lot from.
BrendaPeter wrote:
| How is NARS working out as I'm thinking we'll also go that route. |
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So far, so good! I had no problems getting my courses approved, and their requirements for coursework are not for AP/honors only students. I haven't had any difficulty matching Maine's requirements (NARS) with my own state's requirements and any colleges we would consider. They have no problems with using religious texts and with granting religion credits. I went "self designed" for 3courses because I am just not a fan of the textbook method, so I was thrilled that they approved everything without a problem. I did send in one course that we completed in the 8th grade for 9th grade credit and that was no problem, either. My advisor is available by email and always gets back to me promptly, which works really well for me.
The most difficult aspect of working with them is that it requires me to keep excellent records. I spend about an hour on the weekend filling in the daily log of what we did, and counting hours for the 3 self designed courses we have 80 hrs=1 credit). I have a stack of folders, one for each subject, and I am keeping every assignment, making sure its dated etc and filed appropriately so it won't be hard to turn it all in at the end of the year. Everything that I want to count for credit has to have a *number* grade, so I have to throw a grade on things like each week's lit. discussions, which is weird. BUT...ds has responded really well to an outside verifier, and is looking forward to having an answer this summer when he is asked by friends, "What's your GPA?" Also, I know some kids would hate it, but ds seems to be responding well to the idea of grades in general. I'm beginning to wonder if my lack of assessment of a lot of his work over the years was frustrating to him. Live and learn, eh?
Its been better for me than our experience with Seton (three classes) or when we worked with MODG because I determine the workload, the assignments, the books, everything. I don't feel restrained in any way. I have learned the hard way that I get uncomfortable very quickly when another program (or even a coop class) begins dictating to me *how* I have to do things. My mother says I would be every teacher's nightmare if I ever put my kids in a traditional school.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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BrendaPeter
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Bookswithtea wrote:
I know some moms who are trying to do the WEM thing. I haven't read the book in any detail, though. I do own Invitation to the Classics (Os Guinness), which is a mildly protestant text (harmless, imho) that goes over authors and major works from the ancients onward. |
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LOL - I just put "Invitation to the Classics" on hold at our local library. Same train of thought going on here! Would you believe I even own that Peter Kreeft Bible book you're using & was thinking of using it for high school?!
That is very helpful about NARS. I have read their booklet but it's great to hear/read it from the "horse's mouth" so to speak. I didn't realize how much recordkeeping was involved so that's something to consider. I'm not as ambitious as you it seems, so I have to discern how much I'm willing to do. We've done a few Seton courses as well and were enrolled in Kolbe & MODG once, so I have a little experience. Overall, we're really a "multum non multa" kind of family, ala "Latin-Centered Curriculum" so it's challenging to find something pre-packaged that will work for us. My favorite "program" is Regina Coeli's but it's expensive & you're committed to class times. Would love to find a Catholic Classic (vs. Classical) Curriculum for high school. Maybe something that needs to be developed? Lots of novenas to St. John Bosco in the next year...
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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BrendaPeter
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Bookswithtea wrote:
The most difficult aspect of working with them is that it requires me to keep excellent records. I spend about an hour on the weekend filling in the daily log of what we did, and counting hours for the 3 self designed courses we have 80 hrs=1 credit). I have a stack of folders, one for each subject, and I am keeping every assignment, making sure its dated etc and filed appropriately so it won't be hard to turn it all in at the end of the year. Everything that I want to count for credit has to have a *number* grade, so I have to throw a grade on things like each week's lit. discussions, which is weird. |
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Just trying to get this straight - so, you don't have to do all that for his MODG science course for instance, since there's a syllabus already?
Thanks for letting me pick your brain!
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Bookswithtea
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BrendaPeter wrote:
Just trying to get this straight - so, you don't have to do all that for his MODG science course for instance, since there's a syllabus already?
Thanks for letting me pick your brain! |
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For the three subjects that are not self designed, I still have to daily log, but I don't have to track hours. So for last week, I wrote something like this:
Alg 1, lessons 64-68 (one on each day)
Wordly Wise (1/2 English Credit along with the one below): I write which exercises on which days and that we test on Thursday (I write my own tests for this)
Easy Grammar Plus (1/2 English Credit): I write "Study Adverbs" for however many weeks we do that and then which day we take the test, because I using the "test only" method for grading for this subject (grammar is review for us at this point). If you wanted to grade the workbook, then you'd write which pages you did each day.
MODG Science: I just write what's in the syllabus for each day of each week, in a shorthand manner. I'll send the syllabus to them so they can see its the same and they'll ship it back to me.
I save the alg. daily work and tests, The WW tests only, and the Grammar Test booklet. For MODG science, I keep everything that he has written, but I only grade the assignments that MODG uses to determine grades (in the back of the syllabus).
For the self designed courses, I write what we did that week:
History: M-read in Christ and Americas Ch 12, T-did add'l research, W wrote outline, Th- wrote and revised summary of War of 1812. Each day I also write how many hours he spent on each day with reading/researching/writing.
Religion: M-read ch on 1 Sam and outlined and did copywork, T-wrote summary, W read on 2nd Sam/outlined/copywork, Th-wrote summary, and the time spent.
Literature: I did NOT tell them where I got my ideas or notes for this class, because I didn't want them holding me to *exactly* what was in the syllabus. I tell them what we did, how much time was spent on each day. I retype the tests, using the Kolbe tests as my guide but with my changes, but this way they don't know about it.
I have a notebook with all of the history summaries written, one with all the religion summaries and copywork, and a folder with the literature tests. I keep a log on my computer of the grades I have given for the lit. discussions or anything else that has no paper trail. I'll print it out when the time comes to turn it all in.
It sounds like A LOT of work, and its definitely more than I am used to doing, but now that I've gotten the hang of it, its not too burdensome. Honestly, I would rather do this than use a book or test that I don't like. Its a tradeoff. I felt strongly in prayer that for *this* child, I needed an independent verifier, so I don't feel its an option at this point to go it on our own.
I had a conversation with a 4RL mom recently who commented that a lot of this could be fudged, too. You could write up a daily log ahead of time for each subject and estimate the time likely to be spent, and type it all up over the summer. That didn't occur to me until after I started.
You know what takes the most time of all? Its not the logging...its that MODG provides ZERO answer keys for their science!!! I had to read every single chapter of both Fabre and Lorenz's books in order to figure out if he was answering correctly. I have to do that with the Kreeft book too, but it is much shorter and less time consuming because he writes a summary rather than specific questions that MODG made up, kwim? I'm conversant enough in Am. history that I don't feel the need to reread the sections in the books ds is using, except when I tell him, "Don't tell me there is nothing in the book about anti Catholicism and the Irish, because I read the whole book last summer and I know its there! See here...all this stuff on Maria Monk...where is that in your summary?"
Does that help?
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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BrendaPeter
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Bookswithtea wrote:
[QUOTE=BrendaPeter]How is NARS working out as I'm thinking we'll also go that route.[QUOTE]
So far, so good! I had no problems getting my courses approved, and their requirements for coursework are not for AP/honors only students. I haven't had any difficulty matching Maine's requirements (NARS) with my own state's requirements and any colleges we would consider. They have no problems with using religious texts and with granting religion credits. |
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Dear Books,
You are just a gem! Thank you for taking the time to answer all my questions!
In regard to religion, is it considered an elective as it is not required for high school graduation?
Also, how does it work with the state requirements? I understand that NARS takes that into consideration but do other programs like Seton or Kolbe? My understanding at this point is that you must meet the state requirements in order to graduate from high school in that state. Is that correct? Where do the college requirements come in?
Thank you again for all your thorough explanations! I printed out the last one so that I can really absorb what you wrote. Great bedtime reading !
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Bookswithtea
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BrendaPeter wrote:
In regard to religion, is it considered an elective as it is not required for high school graduation?
Also, how does it work with the state requirements? I understand that NARS takes that into consideration but do other programs like Seton or Kolbe? My understanding at this point is that you must meet the state requirements in order to graduate from high school in that state. Is that correct? Where do the college requirements come in? |
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Yes, religion counts as an elective. I just made it a 4 yr. requirement because I think its important and because the Catholic college I used had it on their transcript paper. In some states, hsers have to meet their own state's requirements, and in others, hsers are considered private school students and aren't subject to their state requirements. Maine has some of the lowest requirements I've ever seen (who knew?) but to graduate from NARS, you have to meet Maine's requirements, so I just lined up Maine's, my own state's and a Catholic college I respect on a word file in three columns to see how much overlap there was. There was *a lot* of overlap. One will require a full year of Am. history, another a 1/2 year, so I just planned for the full year...that sort of thing. Once I had a list of what I needed to do to meet all three (and what I was requiring, whether or not anyone else cared! ), I wrote another basic 4 yr plan to spread everything out.
The courses that frustrate me the most are the things like PE, computer, health, fine arts...mostly because they just don't fit neatly into my columns (I am a bit neurotic when it comes to planning). So after the core subjects, we are trying to do some of this kind of stuff over the summer when it doesn't feel burdensome.
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Blessings,
~Books
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Bookswithtea
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BrendaPeter wrote:
I understand that NARS takes that into consideration but do other programs like Seton or Kolbe? |
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Actually, that is something I have wondered about myself. MODG has really different science courses than average. I know her program was designed specifically to meet CA state requirements and TAC. I guess it depends partially on the state you live in and what they require of hsers. I would imagine that for elective requirements (pe, fine arts, computer/business/tech, etc) each family is on their own to make sure they meet their state's requirements and get it on the transcript with Kolbe/Seton/MODG. From what I can tell, the requirements for core subjects don't vary much except for science. Some require more lab years than others, biology and physical science are required in some states but not others? In CA, the required 9th grade class used to be Earth Science, which is why MODG has a 9th grade Earth Sci. course, but I have since heard that CA is now requiring physical science instead...But I know 2 people, one in CA and one in my own state who are signed up with MODG and they are both doing Earth Science (my state requires physical)? So I don't really understand how all of that works?
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~Books
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BrendaPeter
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Bookswithtea wrote:
You know what takes the most time of all? Its not the logging...its that MODG provides ZERO answer keys for their science!!! I had to read every single chapter of both Fabre and Lorenz's books in order to figure out if he was answering correctly. I have to do that with the Kreeft book too, but it is much shorter and less time consuming because he writes a summary rather than specific questions that MODG made up, kwim? I'm conversant enough in Am. history that I don't feel the need to reread the sections in the books ds is using, except when I tell him, "Don't tell me there is nothing in the book about anti Catholicism and the Irish, because I read the whole book last summer and I know its there! See here...all this stuff on Maria Monk...where is that in your summary?"
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LOL over here! Let's just say I'm a big fan of answer keys! Maria Monk, too funny. We've got all of Anne Carroll's audio cds so hers is a familiar name!
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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BrendaPeter
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Bookswithtea wrote:
It sounds like A LOT of work, and its definitely more than I am used to doing, but now that I've gotten the hang of it, its not too burdensome. Honestly, I would rather do this than use a book or test that I don't like. Its a tradeoff. I felt strongly in prayer that for *this* child, I needed an independent verifier, so I don't feel its an option at this point to go it on our own.
Does that help? |
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Well, I'm VERY impressed! You've helped a ton. Keep thinking we should just use PM since we're going back & forth here but hopefully others are gleaning info from all your hard work!
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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BrendaPeter
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| So I don't really understand how all of that works? |
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I've e-mailed NARS & pulled out their book last night, which was very helpful. Also plan to call Kolbe & Seton today so hopefully I can wrap my brain around it all.
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Bookswithtea
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Let me know what you find out from Kolbe and Seton? Also, I can send you the lit. syllabus based on Kolbe that I wrote for ds and the religion syllabus for the Kreeft book if you pm me your email address, if you think it would help.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Erin
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Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5814
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| Posted: Nov 06 2007 at 2:55pm | IP Logged
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BrendaPeter wrote:
Well, I'm VERY impressed! You've helped a ton. Keep thinking we should just use PM since we're going back & forth here but hopefully others are gleaning info from all your hard work! |
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Well I'm impressed also  I always listen whenever you and Books 'talk' like here, from which Books did send me her Peter Kreeft program. I've ordered the book I'm now waiting.
__________________
Erin
Faith Filled Days
Seven Little Australians
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BrendaPeter
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 28 2005
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Posts: 981
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| Posted: Nov 06 2007 at 8:25pm | IP Logged
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| Let me know what you find out from Kolbe and Seton? |
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They both said that since they're PRIVATE schools, they don't have to meet the state requirements. What they base their curriculums on, who knows ? I assume they just try to meet the requirements of a majority of colleges. After going back & reading lots of threads here, the same things keep coming up - the importance of the SAT score and most colleges don't require a diploma.
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Blessings,
Brenda (mom to 6)
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: High School Booklist
