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MommyD
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| Posted: March 27 2008 at 10:28am | IP Logged
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Please explain vanity to me. When does "self-improvement" become vanity? I'm thinking of things like expensive make-up, elective procedures (mole and hair removal), hair coloring, even weight loss. Any thoughts?
Melissa
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anniemm
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| Posted: March 27 2008 at 11:27am | IP Logged
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I think what your intentions are for various beauty treatments makes a difference. Where does your true intention lie? I struggle with vanity. I don't have the money (or truthfully need, as I am only 25 right now) for expensive beauty treatments (except maybe laser removal of strechmarks after 3 babies!  just kidding...that would be excessive!) . I do wear quite a bit of make-up daily, am particular (though frugal) about what clothing I'll wear, I like to fix my hair and nails, etc. This can turn into an issue of feeling good about myself or how other people see me (particularly other women) if I'm not careful. Most of the time, it comes from a place of love for my husband, who I want to be pleased when he looks at me. Not to say he wouldn't be other wise, but I think making that extra effort to look nice for him as a gift.
Also, as a representitive of our faith and our Church, I want to look approachable - though I think this is mostly attained through a positive attitude, smiling, and being and looking joyful in interactions with my family.
Certain things you menioned, like weight loss and potentially mole removal may be an issue of health though! While I don't think we need to try to prolong our lives for an unreasonable amount of time, I do think that it's important to live healthfully for the sake of our children and out of respect for the bodies God gave us.
Just some thoughts! I'm interested to see what the other ladies have to say!
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Andrea
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stefoodie
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| Posted: March 27 2008 at 11:29am | IP Logged
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I only have a short while to post, but often when I think of these things, I try to use the want vs. need question..... while I don't need expensive makeup, part of taking care of myself would be to use a sunscreen and moisturizer.
While I don't need liposuction or reconstructive surgery, losing/maintaining weight is necessary for my health so I can continue taking care of my family.
I can't speak to hair coloring yet since I don't have the need, but my mom does color her hair. I think for some people it makes them feel younger and if that's what it takes to put some pep in your step while serving your family, I'd say go for it.
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insegnante
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| Posted: March 27 2008 at 11:49am | IP Logged
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I wonder about this too. People certainly would think I was erring on the side of caution against vanity right now  and for the past several years.
The thing I think about most is whether I can "justify" wearing makeup. I don't know why, but it seems different to me from styling hair to be flattering or wearing nice clothes. I stopped wearing makeup mainly because of expense and concern about chemicals, so I'd probably have to spend more than is readily available if I were to start again, in order to get "safer" stuff. But I keep thinking that my husband is going to know exactly what about my face is not "me" and is going to see my face in its natural state in the morning and at night, so if I start again is it really to please him? I do not mean to accuse other women who wear makeup of doing it out of vanity, because you could say similar things about brushing my hair in a way meant to conceal my weird hairline or a couple of little cherry hemangiomas (tiny red dot things) he knows are there, it's just this mental block I've developed about things like highlighting my eyes with liner, defining my lips and concealing my burgeoning facial lines (at the age of 29.)
But I would totally use an effective tooth whitening product ASAP if I could be assured it were safe during pregnancy and could afford it (even if wealthy I'm not sure I could justify hundreds at the dentist -- unless I had an important position requiring me to look really polished for a lot of strangers.) I brush so frequently, maybe I feel slightly more "entitled" to have a nicer tooth color to reflect my good behavior. It seems to have gotten worse during this coffee-free pregnancy for unknown reasons, and it bothers me so much I think it could just plain distract people from the positivity meant to be conveyed if I smile.
Honestly from what the amount I have read on boards and blogs about how we should present ourselves attractively it is easy for me to feel more concerned about what other mothers (that I might hope to get to know better) might think of how I look than what he does -- he likes when I wear skirts and dresses (which I almost always do) and other particularly feminine things because of the "vive la difference" thing, but I know he cares more about my stress level than about my keeping up appearances. He likes jumpers, too, but I'm afraid to buy any because I've read so much about how they supposedly give homeschooling mothers a frumpy bad name
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Theresa
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Lisbet
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| Posted: March 27 2008 at 12:16pm | IP Logged
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I really like what Andrea shared. I have struggled with this question for years. I am a young mom (32) and I don't want to look 'old' - that is probably vanity. I am very frugal with product and such, but, I often think how much more frugal it would be to forgo it altogether! 
Pleasing my husband should be priority, and I really try to take into account his preferences. He's so funny too, he prefers dresses/skirts, which I always wear, but he also prefers my hair short to long!
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
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Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
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marianne
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| Posted: March 27 2008 at 12:39pm | IP Logged
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I think that putting some effort into looking our best should be about self respect, not vanity. I don't think that makeup, hair color, and clothes ect...are vain as long as we aren't using them in a competitive, attention getting way.
For instance, if I felt like I needed to have highlights in my hair b/c my friends did or to get attention from other men, then that would be vanity. If I felt the need to have trendy clothes with spiky toed boots and wore those whenever I thought I might see someone I know, that's vanity. If I see a cute outfit at the store and get it just because I like it and it looks nice, then that isn't quite as bad, is it?
Looking our best isn't the problem, it's the motives behind it. I want to look my best for my family. I want to be a cheerful, put together example to them. I'll admit that part of it could be pride, since I want to represent homeschooling mothers of large families well. It's part of my Christian witness to not look like a worn out hag. Is that pride? Maybe well intentioned pride anyway?
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CrunchyMom
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Well, Anne of Green Gables was a favorite movie growing up. I can't remember if this exact phrase is in the book (though, the idea is), but in the movie when she is visiting Aunt Josephine, they start talking about someone they saw at a luncheon (Alice Bell).
Diana: Well, did you see Alice Bell parading about like *she* had an alabaster brow.
Anne: If I had Alice Bell's crooked nose I wouldn't...oh, I shouldn't have said that. I was comparing it to my own nose, and *that* is vanity. Someone complimented me on my nose long ago, and I'm afraid I've thought about it far too much ever since.
That quote has always helped me make the distinction in my mind. When I am comparing myself to others either in order to think myself higher than them, its vanity. I don't think its wrong to want to look my personal best, but its when it is done so that I can look better than others, it becomes vanity.
I don't think there is anything inherent in beautiful clothes, haircare, makeup that makes a person using those things vain. I would think a person could be vain by insisting upon looking frumpy all the time in order to get attention from others in a letting others see your hair-shirt sort of way. Of course, fewer people have that temptation, lol.
I have gone weeks without wearing makeup, but at this point in my pregnancy, I cheered when a fairy friend sent me some lipsticks. I feel so tired, the lipstick is a sort of pick me up. I usually only wear it when going out with dh (church or whatever), but I have worn it lately so that I can put on a non-tired face for the world in hopes I won't feel as tired if I don't look as tired, lol. I'm sure that as a mom, most of us have had that motive, and it doesn't feel like vanity to me!
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Rachel May
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I would say that I basically agree with the division between vanity and self-improvement discussed here, but after reading Happy Are You Poor this past year, I've begun to try to be even more conservative in my acceptance of self-improving things, even if they aren't vain, per-se.
In my head there are certain things that have dollar values which I can not justify against the idea that the money I don't spend could be used to provide basic needs to others. However, I will admit that very little extra money has gone the direction of the needy of the world instead of for some self-improving item since usually all I do is consider it, as opposed to plan and set money aside and then realize that I should be using my resources differently, if that makes sense.
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CrunchyMom
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Well, as a "crunchy" mom, I must admit that, though I sometimes struggle with vanity, I am pretty low maintenance. I don't use shampoo--just water and rarely conditioner, I use rubbing alcohol instead of deodorant, I rub coconut oil that is left on the spoon from cooking on my hands, elbows, and legs in the winter, and I get my hair cut once a year.
I think my hair is much healthier now since weaning off of products and the natural oils do their thing.
So, I don't feel I have to spend a lot of money to be vain, lol.
Rachel, its kind of like the not wasting food or cleaning your plate debate, right? It doesn't seem right to throw food away when others don't have enough to eat, but whether its thrown away in the garbage or in extra calories to a person that doesn't need them, the person without food isn't any better off. I struggle with this one as well.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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insegnante
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| Posted: March 27 2008 at 4:29pm | IP Logged
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CrunchyMom wrote:
| I don't use shampoo--just water and rarely conditioner, |
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Wow -- I didn't know you "could" not use shampoo, and use nothing but water, and have hair clean to modern standards (which I'm sure you are!) I noticed that when we ran out of conditioner it never made any negative difference to my hair and stopped buying it years ago. Not sure I'd be brave enough to try water-only as a way to save money or lower chemical exposure, though.
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Theresa
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: March 27 2008 at 4:41pm | IP Logged
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Well, you can't stop all at once because your hair is used to being stripped of its oils by soap. That's why it gets oily so fast. So, you kind of start out by washing less frequently or washing with shampoo and then with water only to kind of tide you over. Gradually, the natural oil process slows, and you can give it up or use it only once every week or so.
The only issues I get are flakes when I go without brushing. The oils aren't distributed as they should be and kind of build up and flake some. But, if I regularly brush or massage my scalp pulling the oil through to the ends, it doesn't happen.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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JodieLyn
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There's a lot that plays into things like shampoo and conditioner.. a big one being the climate you're in. When I lived on the coast with all that humidity.. I pretty much never needed conditioner for my hair.. same hair and same hair products and living inland in a more moderate area I did need to periodically use the conditioner but it was like once a week. And again same hair and same products and living in the desert and if I don't use conditioner everytime I wash my hair it's horribly flyaway and staticky and just generally difficult.
But you'd be surprised at what is necessary and what is our body adapting to conditions. Most people don't need to wash their hair every day.. but there's a process where your body has to get used to making less oils for your hair when it's used to a high need for them.
I was thinking of this some while taking a shower (wow.. quiet for thinking  )
Someone mentioned something about makeup.. and how can it be wearing it for another when they see you without. And I think you can still enjoy the wearing of something even if you know what that person is like without it.
I don't wear makeup except for very rare occations.. but I wear perfume almost daily.. because I enjoy and dh enjoys it.
But I wear it because I like it.. not because I'm trying to impress anyone or something. I don't think it's vanity.. but it is a nicety, not necessity.
On the other hand I MUST use moisturizer on my face.. the low humidity here dries my skin out horribly and then it itches and is just  definately a taking care of myself issue and not vanity.. but it doesn't hurt that keeping your skin nice also reduces the visibility of wrinkles and such
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G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
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CrunchyMom
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I don't think I always dress up so my dh is attracted to me but rahter, for him to be proud of me. Not that he is ever ashamed of me, even sans makeup, but I think there is something to his wanting others to see how beautiful he thinks I am, if that makes sense.
I mean, on the occasions that I see my husband across the room and enjoy when others enjoy his presence, yk? I like seeing him look extra nice in a suit (or whatever), looking distinguished, etc...
Its hard to explain, but I don't *think* its vanity since it is f or him, not me, yk?
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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insegnante
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CrunchyMom wrote:
Its hard to explain, but I don't *think* its vanity since it is f or him, not me, yk? |
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Sure, that makes perfect sense, you're sort of representing your family. It's like how I said if I were, say, a spokeswoman for a pro-life or homeschooling group or someone who had lots of important meetings with prominent people as representative of an organization that did important work, I'd consider spending hundreds of dollars for a truly white-toothed smile.
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Theresa
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Loren
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I was considering this today. We had eye doctor appointments this morning and the tech who was testing me made a comment about me being "gussied up.' I made a comment about making an effort when I go out in public, but don't believe I really said what I wanted to say.
What I decided later that I wanted to say was "God gave me this beautiful day and this beautiful (wonderful? miraculous? what is the word I'm looking for?) body. I dress up to show Him how much I appreciate this gift. I try to take care of myself by doing what is good for the body, but I also show respect for myself and others in how I present myself. That includes clothing and attitude."
That said, I don't usually wear makeup, but I do try to wear dresses or skirts more often that pants. I try to make sure my hair is brushed before I leave the house. My teeth are crooked and stained and I'm OK with that. I don't intend to color my hair when it starts to gray. I do shave my legs weekly and underarms more often, especially in the summer.
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guitarnan
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I have rosacea, so I do wear makeup, but I'm pretty lazy about the hair. I don't color it, but the endless argument - all that gray vs. all the time and money to eliminate gray - has been haunting me lately.
I think things like weight loss and self-image are very much health-related, and we owe it to God to keep ourselves in good health so we can fulfill His plan for our lives. (That's the Temple of the Holy Spirit argument, too...if we are good enough to receive God in Holy Communion and other sacraments, we should give God the best "home" possible, one we've cared for because He gave it to us.)
I also believe a good self-esteem helps us to carry out God's plan for us. This doesn't mean we all have to look (ack!) like Paris Hilton or spend tons of money on hair, clothes, etc., but it does mean we should be confident when caring for our families, dealing with the general public, and going to church for Mass or other events. Just as you wouldn't take your clothes outside and stomp on them before you wear them to church, we shouldn't "stomp" on ourselves.
My own life experience has shown me that each person finds the balance between cost, time and values for her/himself, and that what works for me might not appeal to you at all. I feel horrible without makeup because of the red, blotchy places on my face, and my mom, who has the same condition, does too. Someone else might feel otherwise. I even wear makeup when camping!
This is a great thread. Thank you!
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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SallyT
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This is an interesting thread. I've found myself including vanity on my list for Confession recently, and I think what I mean by that is that I spend too much time thinking and worrying about my appearance -- not that I do anything that different, or spend much money, but if it's nagging at my mind, as a worry, then something is out of whack.
I don't wear makeup, unless you count the faintly pink Bert's Bees pomegranate lip balm I've been wearing! But the day I got bifocals, I also went out and bought a bottle of Oil of Olay, and then felt perfectly ridiculous. Yesterday I wasn't "aging," and today I am? On the other hand, I have no intention of coloring my hair, and I can't see trying to cover up whatever my face looks like. I figure that the shock, for my husband, of seeing me first thing in the morning will be far less if that's the way I look all the time (more or less -- I do get dressed, brush my hair, and brush my teeth, thank you).
When I was younger I was much more the tousled, jeans-wearing, sloppy-"chic" type. Now I do pay more attention to what I'm wearing when I go out, as a matter of dignity. It just doesn't seem right to go out in sweats or jeans with holes in the knees, as I used to, trading on my youthful glow and nothing else. But then, I'm sitting here right now wearing a jumper and Converse-type sneakers, so clearly I haven't progressed that far in the sartorial department . . . even "dignity" for me ends up being kind of funky.
As for hair -- I'm not nearly as crunchy as Lindsay, but I do try to go for days between washes, to keep from stressing it too much (and because that takes so much TIME). I keep it long so I can put it up and get more mileage out of it between washes. And I think I do maybe two haircuts a year, but I do them myself, so that's something of a mortification as well . . . I used to be a perfectionist about the way my hair looked, so this is quite a leap for me.
Anyway, I second what Nancy says - this is an interesting conversation. I love comparing notes.
Sally
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Lisbet
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I could sum it up for myself by saying it that if each of us, as individual women, are earnestly honoring Our Lord when it comes to our appearance, we should be comfortable with that. I know many women that are across the spectrum when it comes to how they dress/makeup/hair etc... and not an unattractive one among them! :) I think it comes down to being comfortable with what we have each discerned. KWIM?
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Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
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Rachel May
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CrunchyMom wrote:
| Rachel, its kind of like the not wasting food or cleaning your plate debate, right? It doesn't seem right to throw food away when others don't have enough to eat, but whether its thrown away in the garbage or in extra calories to a person that doesn't need them, the person without food isn't any better off. I struggle with this one as well. |
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Yes, but for me the food issue is easier. Buy less, prepare less, serve less, take the difference in our grocery bill and send it to Food for the Poor. Hair dying is only a hypothetical so the money just gets reallocated towards something appropriate that I do need (until I figure out how not to need that).
Interesting thread!
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Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
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mary theresa
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guitarnan wrote:
(That's the Temple of the Holy Spirit argument, too...if we are good enough to receive God in Holy Communion and other sacraments, we should give God the best "home" possible, one we've cared for because He gave it to us.)
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Is is St. Francis de Sales that said that Catholics should be the most well-groomed and well-dressed people out there?
I take this to mean that since we do see our bodies as temples of the Holy Spirit and the external expressions of our souls, as it were, that taking time over the body's looks is not only nice, but necessary.
And I do think, as some other people said, that it is a form of evangelization too.
I have a s-i-l with 3 under 3 and she says that she feels really strongly about looking nice ESPECIALLY when she goes out with the kids. People DO, whether we like it or not, tend to make assumptions based on appearances. I remember being a teenager and at one point not wanting to be a mom because alot of moms with big families that i knew looked unkempt and baggy-eyed every time I saw them. (Now that I am a mom I KNOW so well how that can be the default mode! ) Shallow that thought may be, to assume that someone is unhappy or whatever because they look disheveled, but most of us have a certain shallowness that leads us to judge by appearances. I want people to know that I am happy and fulfilled and well-taken-of so that I don't cause some other little teenage girl to not want motherhood like I once didn't.
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Mary Theresa
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Vanity vs. self-improvement
