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LisaR
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| Posted: April 25 2008 at 8:58am | IP Logged
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I am perusing a friends Winter Promise material/lesson plans and it looks incredible- reminds me of Sonlight which I used for years, but it ties in Language Arts, project ideas, DVD and web suggestions, and much more so very seamlessly!!
that being said, I have two questions:
1. do you use winterpromise? could you share your likes and dislikes
2. do you have any lesson manuals that you would be willing to let me "borrow" for a year? I know they are very strict about buying used materials, and I honestly do not have the money right now to buy new but would be interested to "rent" or borrow for a year or even 6 mo. if that is copyright permissible?
I am particularly interested in Lang. Arts and also any of the history programs, not the science, and the lesson plans ONLY, we own many of the books already, 
TIA,
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
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Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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insegnante
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| Posted: April 25 2008 at 10:40am | IP Logged
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I know nothing about this curriculum but I didn't know that publishers of any kind of books were able to restrict resale or other use that does not actually involve copying (either using a machine to copy or writing/typing out more than "fair use" portions of the text.) Google "doctrine of first sale" to see if whatever restrictions you think there might be on buying (or borrowing) used books legally apply. I do believe there are special exceptions prohibiting sale of used software that is considered "licensed" and not sold to the original user, and possibly (some?) audio materials... not sure if anything else. I also think but not am 100% sure that you may be able to permanently transfer a software "license" to another person after uninstalling the software from your computer or whatever the terms state, but not sell it.
Not to go off on a tangent when this wasn't the main purpose of your post, but I guess we could ask whether they are morally/legally allowed to say, "We don't want you to resell our books and you are agreeing not to when you buy them." And then to buy them used would be helping a person break that agreement. But if they didn't/don't require people to agree to that when they buy, I don't know. Imagine if all sorts of sellers started including terms that you weren't allowed to resell their items (clothes, toys, appliances) and you had to throw them away when you no longer had a use for them? Doesn't seem reasonable.
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folklaur
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| Posted: April 25 2008 at 11:45am | IP Logged
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LisaR wrote:
1. do you use winterpromise? could you share your likes and dislikes |
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Likes:
Lit based learning. Includes ideas for hands-on projects. Includes ideas for movies/websites. (These things are out there on the internet, but they have done the work for you - and it saves time!!!). Uses more picture books than SL. Some feel books more age appropriate to grade level (not as heart wrenching as some SL books are.) Notebooking as major component to the programs. The Brooks (couple who own company) are VERY nice, very Christian couple. The new programs look great, and they have reworked some of the older ones (AS1, for instance). Extras for Hideaways in History is getting good reviews. Timeline is BEAUTIFUL. S&S is supposed to have a lot more than just papercrafts for hands-on. Guidebooks have neat ideas for narration.
Neutral, depending on family: Uses more non-fiction and/or biographical books than SL. This can either be a like or a dislike depending on your kids. Science (like in the Sea & Sky) is all from a YEC view.
Dislikes: Books could often be considered twaddle-ish. In the past, it was my experience that the Guidebook was VERY VERY CHOPPY. Weekly reading not really tied together well. AS1 crafts are almost all paper crafts, and some youngers did not have dexterity to do it, olders get board with all papercrafts. (Animal World crafts have similar complaints - too many repeat crafts). YOU NEVER GET ALL YOUR BOOKS TOGETHER, or even on time, or sometimes at all. They now ship 3rd party through Amazon, and charge higher prices than Amazon, even though you get your box directly from Amazon. Not happy with notebooking pages in AS1 - sample they show online is misleading (store sign one) as it is one of the few that you actually do something on, rest are mainly just a page of info you stick in a book with nothing to do on them (maybe you could color it?) Prices for guidebook is very expensive.
If you have any other questions I can try to answer them.
 They did just come out with a bunch of new programs so they are NOT tried and tested yet. Which always makes me hesitate, especially knowing how that has gone in previous times with them. As a Catholic, you really need to tweak/be aware of some of the stuff you are going to run into.
HTH,
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Mary G
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| Posted: April 25 2008 at 11:49am | IP Logged
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Laura,
Thanks for the great review of Winterpromise ... I really do like what I see but am holding off buying it as it does seem expensive ... but since much of the work is done and it SEEMS to be written so you can have more than one age doing it at a time ....
What does "yec" mean?
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folklaur
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| Posted: April 25 2008 at 12:02pm | IP Logged
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insegnante wrote:
| I know nothing about this curriculum but I didn't know that publishers of any kind of books were able to restrict resale... |
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Well, legally, I don't think they can. But they do *ask*. Here is what they say:
"[Winter Promise Exclusives] are the heart and soul of our curriculum, and their sales enable us to keep offering curriculum in years to come. We respectfully request that you keep these items off the resale market..."
This also does not apply to their older guidebooks (I think before 2006?) and of course it doesn't apply to the books. Just their exclusives.
So, what they are doing, is *asking* you to please not do it. And, I can understand. I don't have to like it, because it does mean I may not be able to buy something I would like, but I can also understand their point from a business aspect.
CHC's copywrite is, in reality, similar. You aren't *supposed* to use their workbooks for more than one child. They point out that:
"When the one book sold by CHC becomes three or four or six books through photocopying, customers do save a small amount of money. However, their savings, because of the cost of printing and development for CHC, comes at the price of loss for CHC and, ultimately, for the customers. If no photocopying took place, and all those who use CHC materials actually purchased them from CHC, we would be able to print in larger quantity. Printing in larger quantity would lower our costs; this savings would benefit not only CHC, but allow us to keep our prices lower for the customer as well.
CHC strives to aid large Catholic families by keeping costs waaay low, but the Catholic homeschooling market is still quite small...."
Now I know that some people don't actually photocopy, but instead just don't have their kids write in the book at all, and share that way by using seperate paper, and THEN will resell the "never used" not written in book (letter of the law/spirit of the law?).
Anyway. As I said, I don't *like* it always, because I don't have the $ to always get what I want. I know legally, I have some leeway. But I understand their desire to keep their business afloat too.
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MaryM
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| Posted: April 25 2008 at 12:02pm | IP Logged
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Young earth creationism
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folklaur
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| Posted: April 25 2008 at 12:04pm | IP Logged
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Whoops, sorry! Spending too much time at the Sonlight Lifelong Learners and just used shorthand 
YEC = Young Earth Creationist (Literal 24 hour/6day creation taking place about 6000 years ago.)
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LisaR
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| Posted: April 25 2008 at 12:20pm | IP Logged
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Laura! did I know that you used winterpromise?? thanks so much for your thoughts.
I am not interested in their science at all, and so hope to avoid for the most part YEC. I am really looking at it for my 4th, 1st and Pre K, like children around the world, or some of the early history units, not really even looking at the "middlers" supplement (though it does look nice) on up.
I have 3 different lesson plans, and can see a HUGE improvement from the copyright 2005/2006 materials to the 2007 stuff.
I already own all of the sonlight books or most all! for core 2,3,4,5 and so thought I could mesh together nicely. I just ended up hating the LA with Sonlight, as well as the lesson plans seemed to get more and more overwhelming with Sonlight, without the "rabbit trails" that winterpromise seems to offer/suggest.
so, it "could" be ok for me to borrow, or even buy a used lesson plan from someone? it is just that they have asked that I not do so??
and with that being said, does anyone have anything they would be willing to part with for a year (me rent) or sell??
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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folklaur
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| Posted: April 25 2008 at 12:32pm | IP Logged
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LisaR wrote:
| children around the world, or some of the early history units, not really even looking at the "middlers" supplement |
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Glad I could help  .
General consensus is that CATW material is pretty mature in some respects - lots of people who have used it feel it should be labeled from 4th grade & up.
Also, that AS1 could easily be used, as is, up through 4th or even 5th grade, without changing the program (but this was before AC1 came out this year.)
ALSO - new spine for AS1 - The American Story - has lots of anti-Catholic jibes in it....starting in chapter 1 - where it is talking about the Spaniards and how one
of their "ferocious goals" was the "destruction of Protestants."
If/when I use it I will sub FSTSS.
I have a Yahoo Catholic WP group. It is new, so small, and we don't have the resources like SL-Cath does yet - but we would love to have anybody looking into WP join us!
Catholic WinterPromise
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folklaur
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| Posted: April 25 2008 at 1:40pm | IP Logged
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I thought of a few more things...do you care if I share them too?
Their LA:
Like: The pages are opposite hole punched - so when you open your binder you have your LA on one side and your History on the other. Such a simple thing but was nice to not have to flip back & forth. Older DD *really" liked the Grammar with a Giggle series (we used book 2).
Dislike: they don't use the same grammar series from year to year - it jumps around. Maybe that is no big deal, I don't know, it could be they picked the best of the best in their opinion for each level.
Also - World Map got mixed reviews. It was beautiful - but very expensive, and just a paper map and didn't hold up well.
And lastly - overall, it seems that the "hands-on" activities are mainly just drawn from activity books that are part of the program (mostly from the "A kids Guide" series - so books like More than Moccassins and Colonial Kids and similar.) So, it just says to do the activity in the book.
The Guidebook WILL tell you how hard (ie how much prep work and activity will take. Easy-Medium-Hard). It also lists many activities for each week and you are supposed to pick which to do or not do. The activities may - or may not - tie in well with the weekly readings.
I have to be honest - this is my main problem with the programs.
I expect to have the readings & activities tied together. I feel that is what I am paying (and paying a pretty high price!) for. For instance - the American Story 1 is $70 - compared to Sonlight Core 3 which is $62.50 (but I ususally order enough that I get a discount on top of that. Plus SL has questions/answers for each book, and lots of additional teaching notes, etc. I can go to the SL Forum and find lists of activities tied directly to the week of readings.)
I always think I am more likely to actually DO the projects if they are already in the schedule though.
Sigh. It sounds like I am down on WP. I'm not, not really. I really like things about it. I think my youngest dd would LOVE the new HIH program. I think they are a newer company and still have some kinks. I think that I may use parts of it (like the notebooking HIH pages along with SL core 1 and 2, or the American Crafts Set along with SL3. I think that they mesh well.)
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Mary G
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| Posted: April 25 2008 at 2:09pm | IP Logged
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Laura -- thanks for the mention of the Catholic WP ... I've added that to my yahoo groups list ....
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folklaur
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| Posted: April 25 2008 at 2:28pm | IP Logged
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LisaR wrote:
| did I know that you used winterpromise?? thanks so much for your thoughts. |
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 Sure!
LisaR wrote:
I am not interested in their science at all, and so hope to avoid for the most part YEC. |
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See, I was looking at Sea & Sky for my ds, when I found that a lot of the books have the YEC viewpoint. I emailed Karen Brooks, and she let me know which books did, and I think I could easily use Usborne or DK books as replacements.
LisaR wrote:
I have 3 different lesson plans, and can see a HUGE improvement from the copyright 2005/2006 materials to the 2007 stuff. |
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That's good to know!
LisaR wrote:
I already own all of the sonlight books or most all! for core 2,3,4,5 and so thought I could mesh together nicely. |
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me, too! Come join our Yahoo Group! The more the merrier!!!
LisaR wrote:
| I just ended up hating the LA with Sonlight, |
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Was that the old LA's or the new ones? They just revamped the whole LA program last year. It is totally different than in previous years.
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Anne
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| Posted: April 25 2008 at 10:11pm | IP Logged
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I am really enjoying reading the responses to this post. I am considering purchasing the American Crossing history for my soon to be middle schooler. Did I just say that ! I too have been very curious how this program flows. I am looking for a bit more structure for my dd 11. My attempts at SL and TOG have not been too successful  .
Another thought I've been considering is using the Prairie Primer with my 3 younger dc. It is a similar time period with read aloud more age appropriate for their interest.
I think having my oldest dd on a different curriculum will give her more of a sense of truly being a middler.
Thanks Laura for the WP group I will check it out!
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Mamamoon
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i have their children of the world curriculum. it is a beautiful program. we did not get to it this year, but i am hoping to do it this summer. i was impressed when i got the materials. lots of things to do, i was sort of overwhelmed because i had so many other things i was teaching this year (my first year) but lots of fun cultural nights and dinners to do together as you study geography and culture.
mamamoon~
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folklaur
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| Posted: April 26 2008 at 4:37pm | IP Logged
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I am so glad to see some familiar faces on the yahoo group!
Oh, and I use my "internet nickname" over there, so "Lolly" is me  .
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folklaur
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| Posted: April 26 2008 at 4:39pm | IP Logged
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Mamamoon wrote:
| i have their children of the world curriculum. |
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Hi!
Their CATW program is one of the ones that I would really like to do. I have tried to remember that most everyone I have talked to suggested it was good for older kids, but I was trying to figure out how to do it next-next year, so with a 2nd & 5th grader. I am just afraid it will be too much for my sensitive 2nd grade dd.
Please update if you do use it, how you like it, etc! I would love to hear how it works for you.
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folklaur
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| Posted: April 26 2008 at 4:45pm | IP Logged
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Anne wrote:
Another thought I've been considering is using the Prairie Primer with my 3 younger dc. It is a similar time period with read aloud more age appropriate for their interest.
I think having my oldest dd on a different curriculum will give her more of a sense of truly being a middler.
Thanks Laura for the WP group I will check it out!
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I can't wait until my youngest dd is old enough for PP. I think she will absolutely love it.
That is a good thought about having a different program for your middler. "Middlers" can be funny about things like that. I remember when I was in Catholic school, the "middler" grades in my school (7th & 8th) had a slightly different uniform than all the younger grades (we got to wear skirts and vests instead of the jumper.) We felt SO grown up!
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JeniferS
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| Posted: April 28 2008 at 6:19pm | IP Logged
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Laura, thank you so much for all the WP info!
Are you still in Phoenix? (I think I remember reading somewhere that you were leaving AZ?). If you're still here, I'd love to get together and maybe look at your guides? I'll buy you lunch.
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Theresa
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| Posted: April 28 2008 at 10:54pm | IP Logged
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I've been looking at this curriculum as well, more specifically the American Crossing series and would love to be able to look through it. I find the website a bit hard to navigate and understand and to spend that much money without having an opportunity to touch and look at the materials is daunting to say the least.
Another company I have been looking at is Homeschool in the Woods I've been looking at their Time Travelers Series. I think it looks like something my boys would enjoy and I think that there are tons of living books options that I can supplement with.
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folklaur
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| Posted: April 28 2008 at 11:38pm | IP Logged
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Theresa in MN wrote:
Another company I have been looking at is Homeschool in the Woods I've been looking at their Time Travelers Series.
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I have two of their sets, and they look fun. They are set up as one-month unit studies, but I think they can be easily used many, many different ways.
WP uses the Time Travelers series as a component of their American Crossings program.
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Winter Promise??
