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Dawn
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Can anyone recommend resources for learning to play the organ at home?
We have my late grandfather's organ stored in our basement and recently my oldest has asked about learning to play. I am probably the least musical person in the world so I have no idea where to even begin  .
This is just an idea we are tossing about but ANY ideas would be much appreciated! Thanks. 
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JennGM
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Dawn,
Janet has a daughter that currently takes lessons, so I'm sure she'll have much more to say. The timing of your message was so right...because I was digging up music books, so I just pulled out my old organ books.
Before I proceed with a long list of suggestions, I wanted to know a few things. Do you have a piano? Is there any previous keyboard experience for your children?
In simple terms, if you teach your child how to read piano music, the transition isn't too hard for the organ. The touch (pianos play softer and louder according to the way the artist plays with their fingers, organs only adjust through a foot pedal) and playing smoothly (legato) is the two key adjustments. A third is adding foot pedals. That's why it's key to learn both bass and treble clef music.
I have a few simple suggestions to pass on to you, but I'd like to hear how much musical background your family has. Do you need to know how an organ even works? What the stops are?
And what kind of organ is it? Pipe organ? Pump organ? Electronic? Could you give me a brand name? How many foot pedals and keyboard size? What different kinds of stops do you have (Stops have names like Flute, oboe, trumpet, etc.).
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Dawn
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Hi Jenn! Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with me!! I will try to answer your questions below:
jenngm67 wrote:
| Do you have a piano? Is there any previous keyboard experience for your children? |
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We do not have a piano, although we have been thinking of getting a keyboard. My mother has an OLD piano that she has offered to let us use at her home.
My kids have no previous keyboard experience. My husband took lessons as a child (his mother was a piano teacher) but has not played in years.
jenngm67 wrote:
| I'd like to hear how much musical background your family has. Do you need to know how an organ even works? What the stops are? |
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Well, none of us is very musical I am sorry to say  ! I did play the organ as a child with my grandfather, but I never learned formally ... I just learned to play certain songs and got familiar with how the organ worked. But it has been YEARS since I touched it.
jenngm67 wrote:
| And what kind of organ is it? Pipe organ? Pump organ? Electronic? Could you give me a brand name? How many foot pedals and keyboard size? What different kinds of stops do you have (Stops have names like Flute, oboe, trumpet, etc.). |
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I just ran downstairs and checked ~ It is a Troubadour 183, and I believe it is electric (I remember the buttons all lit up when you turned it on). There are 8 foot pedals, 52 keys (on two levels) and 21 stops. It is old ~ maybe 30 years! It hasn't been turned on in years so I have no idea if it even works!
As I said, this is just something we are tossing about, and up till yesterday we were planning a trip to a local music store to look at keyboards. We thought we might try out a home-instruction program and if it seemed to stick, see if lessons would be better, perhaps at my mother's piano.
Thanks again for the information!
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JennGM
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Dawn,
I'm throwing my initial ideas out the window  You should first see if that organ works! I've had my share of old organs, and some don't resuscitate at all. I had one die right in the middle of Mass in the middle of a hymn!
I did a quick search with Google and eBay and thought this auction might be interesting for you...it has the service manuals to your organ, plus others. To me, this is potential rabbit trail. If the organ is dead or almost dead and "unfixable" for what it's worth, let your sons take apart the organ to see how it works. Rachel May talked about doing this with an old piano in another thread. Such fun!
I started piano lessons at age 11. One area my teacher stressed was learning to play legato (smoothly). She had a small beginner's book of Catholic hymns that I learned to play smoothly, without use of the sustaining pedal. This is preparation for organ. When you depress the key, the note comes out, when you lift your finger, the music stops completely. In the piano there is a little echo or resounding, even after you lift your fingers up.
After learning the basics in piano, I started playing organ for small churches. I didn't have training, I just applied piano knowledge and self-taught some things. Then I took organ lessons around the age of 17 or so. This is a potential money-maker  Not big bucks, but there was always need of a funeral, wedding or church organist, even for short periods of time. It was nice to make a little extra money for something you enjoyed! It's not only hymns, but also classical pieces, and then of course the old organs at the ballpark....da-da-DUN-da-da-CHARGE!!!! And jazz music sometimes use the organs.
For your beginning family, you might want to take a look at Alan Jemison Music. Even if you don't use his books on instructions, his basic hymns were nice for beginners.
If you have a nice music store that sells sheet music (our little town has a place that sells music and also has lessons, a theatre ...a little cultural mecca) and ask for recommendations on self-teaching music. There are many instructional books or programs out there. If no one can help you, just take some time to review the different ones and see what fits. I have an older book How to Teach Piano Successfully by James W. Bastien that gives short reviews of the programs and some ideas on how to teach. Another site, Piano World, has some wonderful forums, including a Piano Teacher's Forum and Adult Beginner's forum that you might be able to get some ideas...don't be intimidated by the "Teacher" name...there are a lot of people asking for advice like your question.
As for what would be best, piano, organ, keyboard, I can't say what would be a perfect fit for you. If your mother's piano is in bad shape that makes music playing and practice a chore because of bad notes (and it's untunable), I would say go with a keyboard. I'm not saying invest in a top of the line acoustic piano or keyboard, but soemthing that is enjoyable to the ear and touch makes one love music more....
I have a few more thoughts, but it will have to wait until later...a small child needs me.
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Dawn
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jenngm67 wrote:
| I'm throwing my initial ideas out the window You should first see if that organ works! |
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You're absolutely right! It is so buried down there , it will be a bit of a task, but I hope dh and I can get it moved out and plugged in this weekend ~ see what's what.
jenngm67 wrote:
| To me, this is potential rabbit trail. If the organ is dead or almost dead and "unfixable" for what it's worth, let your sons take apart the organ to see how it works. |
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Well, this would be fun, but I will feel terrible guilt for not having taken proper care of it all these years  ! Of course my husband has been after me for years to get rid of it (it's currently parked in his workshop with a tarp over it) and it is rather bulky ... but I just couldn't, you know? I have such wonderful memories of my grandfather playing and singing, all of us singing together on Christmas Eve. I've just never felt the urge to get at it myself and now here I have my son, marveling at the beauty of the music at mass, and wondering if he might try our organ someday ...
jenngm67 wrote:
| I started piano lessons at age 11 ... This is preparation for organ.! |
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Well, I don't feel so badly now that I've waited sooo long to start Liam on music lessons (he's 10). But he has never seemed ready for them, till now. That is why we have been looking at keyboards, and perhaps if we did that (home program on keyboards) it might set up a readiness for playing organ (whether it's ours or something else down the line).
jenngm67 wrote:
| As for what would be best, piano, organ, keyboard, I can't say what would be a perfect fit for you ... I'm not saying invest in a top of the line acoustic piano or keyboard, but soemthing that is enjoyable to the ear and touch makes one love music more.... |
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Thank you so very much Jenn for all your thoughts here ... I guess I am going to see how (if!) the organ works and then go from there. I am leaning towards keyboards whatever the case with the organ ~ it sounds like it might be prudent to start there and keep the organ in the back of our minds .
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Rachel May
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I'll just add this thought. The organist at our church growing up once talked to me a little about his vocation. One thing he mentioned is that many church organists are really pianists who are playing an organ like Jenn did. He, at some point, had chosen to actually be trained as an organist.
He mentioned this to me when I has wondered allowed why he was so much better as an organist than anyone else I'd heard. So if you revive the organ, and want to do justice to it, maybe real organ lessons are in someone's future? I had never realized that an organ was so very different than any other keyboard until he mentioned it.  But the difference in what you hear is so beautiful!
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I agree with you, Rachel. If paid lessons are in the future and the organ is working condition, I'd go for the organ lessons. So much rich classical music was written for the organ. To learn how to properly make those pipe organs sing is a gift, and you can return it to God and share it with others. I love the organ. It is hard to find teachers, though...and then to practice, I had to find times that the church was empty. If you have an organ at home, you have so much more advantage, because practice times are more readily available.
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To keep this all neat and tidy...I just wanted to mention some books that I used that were highly recommended to me when I took organ. Method of Organ Playing by Harold Gleason is a classic in organ instruction. I also used for my pedal playing practice A System of Technical Studies in Pedal Playing for the Organ by L. Nilson, printed G. Schirmer. And of course, Bach's inventions are important to train the hands on playing separately, since you work with different keyboards and foot pedals.
I just opened Gleason's book and my eyes fell upon a paragraph in the Introduction: A well-grounded piano technique is essential for the beinning organ student, and it is impossible to achieve real proficiency without it. The study of organ playing should not being until the student has mastered a repetoire which includes Bach's Two- and Three-part Inventions, some Inventions, some of The Well-Tempered Clavier and easier sonatas by Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven.
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Thread hog here, but I just saw the price on that book by Gleason! $100!!!  I didn't pay that much back when I had the 6th edition. It is worth it, but I wouldn't purchase this book until I was sure of an pursuit in organ. Perhaps an older edition would fit the bill (pun intended).
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Jen L.
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jenngm67 wrote:
I just opened Gleason's book and my eyes fell upon a paragraph in the Introduction: A well-grounded piano technique is essential for the beinning organ student, and it is impossible to achieve real proficiency without it. The study of organ playing should not being until the student has mastered a repetoire which includes Bach's Two- and Three-part Inventions, some Inventions, some of The Well-Tempered Clavier and easier sonatas by Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven. |
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I'm not an expert on anything but it could further an interest if the organ was plugged in and working for the children to experiment and explore. Plus it wouldn't be just sitting there (no judgement -- plenty guilty of that myself! )
On another note, if the organ is really non-functional (I'll pray that it's fine ), make sure that you take a picture of it before any disposal or destruction. That helps a lot with triggering the good memories.
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Dawn
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jenngm67 wrote:
A well-grounded piano technique is essential for the beinning organ student, and it is impossible to achieve real proficiency without it. |
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O.K., it seems we really should go with piano/keyboard lessons first and then think about organ in the future. This completely makes sense! I guess my next question then, is can anyone recommend a nice set of keyboards ?
And yet, I am now so hopeful, praying in fact, that our organ will still work ~ I can't imagine that I did not see the blessing we had sitting right there in our basement. When I think how proud my grandfather would have been to know his first great-grandchild would be playing his organ someday ...
Thank you again, Jenn and Rachel, for taking the time to reply to my post and giving me some direction ... you have really helped me figure this out today  !
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Jen L. wrote:
| On another note, if the organ is really non-functional (I'll pray that it's fine ), make sure that you take a picture of it before any disposal or destruction. That helps a lot with triggering the good memories. |
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Hi Jen, we crossed posts! Thank you for your kind words and thank you for your prayers !
Also, I like your idea to let my boys play around with it. If there is life there, I will definitely ask dh to make space for it in our downstairs den. After all, this is what I did as a child! I never learned (formally) to play, but boy did I LOVE those afternoons at Grandma and Grandpa's flipping through old music books and tinkering with the keys and pedals.
I will have to post later and let you all know what happens when we finally plug it in  !
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Jenn, you always have so much wonderful information to share, please "hog" away !
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ALmom
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I just saw this thread and since dd has been taking organ lessons, I'll pass on what we have learned. However, we are very far from experts.
Even if you get the organ working, it may not be a good practice organ. Most home organs are very different than the church organs - more like toys. Someone gave us an organ - 2 levels of keys and some foot pedals (not many). We were naively excited that we wouldn't have to travel to the church to practice - until her organ teacher informed us that we would be better off practicing organ on the piano than on that organ. Check with a true organist/organ teacher before assuming that you will be able to practice on it. The clue is how many keys are on each level - most home organs are short keys so the whole organ keyboard at church will be different.
That being said, my dd first interest in music came from having a keyboard laying around. It didn't even have the full set of keys so would never have been usable for lessons. It did inspire her interest in pursuing lessons. So, if you get it working then by all means set it up and let all the dc mess around on it - they will learn the sound of notes, etc. and probably develop some love of music. Put a picture of grandfather up and remember him as you mess around.
Piano and organ are very different instruments. Organ is actually played more like a string instruement as far as technique (my dd is often told to watch her piano hands and she has to really mentally adjust between instruments to avoid that. The best help she ever received in improving her touch on the organ was a teacher who used violin terms to describe the touch) A pianist uses how she hits the keys to influence dynamics. An organist has to use a different touch so that you don't hear the mechanisms of the organ in the music. My dd could probably explain this more - this is my feeble attempt at it.
We were told to start with piano first and then transition to organ by the piano teacher. However, her first organ teacher didn't seem to agree with this when dd began organ lessons. I'd find some local teachers and ask some questions first. The technique of touch on the keys is so very different that there will be considerable unlearning if you take piano first. I know our first organ teacher teaches piano and organ though she doesn't teach advanced piano students and she switches between piano and organ at Mass - though she much prefers the organ. We started organ after many years of piano so I am not sure if she starts her organ students on piano or organ - but I am sure that she pays attention to different things than a piano teacher would. Even the way you hold your hand is different - more curved on the piano. However, you certainly can learn piano first (that is what our dd did)and transfer/add organ. If you learn piano first, there will be some things you will have to unlearn when you transfer to organ and at first you will find it very hard to switch between piano and organ.
I think it is better to start with a teacher in the instruement you plan to play in the end. With organ, you will have to practice at the church no matter what - but many organists do some of the initial practice on a piano so learning note reading, etc. could all be done on piano if you had one available. If you start with organ, there is the expense advantage - you don't have to invest in an instrument - saving at least $1000-$2000 - unless you already have a really decent piano. Even with a piano, we pay $90 per year for tuning - and now it is more as there are additional things that must be adjusted for sound quality besides just being in tune. A good piano tuner should be able to tell you about the quality of the one your mother has for a fee. The church covers any organ tuning. Our dd practices organ 3X per week at various churches. She tries to shift between different organs as each organ is very unique (this wouldn't be necessary when you are first learning). In general, organists are in very high demand around here and most places are glad to encourage organists in any way they can.
Is there a local association of the organist guild - that is a good place to start in terms of finding a teacher. Teachers are excited to teach anyone who is really interested in organ - sort of like trying to preserve an endangered species. In our area the organists guild actually has an event called Pipes, Pedals and Song with pizza afterwards to give exposure to dc and then they offer a scholarship for organ study to 3 of the participants - that is how dd started organ lessons. We got her first books free with this scholarship as well as 6 months of lessons.
If you don't have a guild of organists locally, then check churches - just make sure you get a true organist and not a pianist playing the organ. We are in Alabama and have quite a selection of organ teachers - mostly in the Protestant churches and at the local university that offers music performance. I would suspect that if we have teachers, there must be some around you. The hardest part is that drive to practice. We do things like plan to practice before a lesson, on our way to something else that passes the church, etc. Oh, one other hint - look at the organs in the churches. The churches with small, electronic ones are not as likely to attract a real organist as the church with a full pipe organ, 4 levels of keys, etc. IE start looking in the churches with the better organs. If they have invested that much money in the organ, they are more likely to have a real organist on their church payroll.
Let us know what you find out about your organ - really hope it is still working and you can have lots of fun with it! Hope this helps - and you find good teachers in whatever instruement you choose.
Janet
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ALmom
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Oops - don't mean to be a hog but I do know that there is an awesome young male organist - last name Hell from Germany who started playing organ at 3 so there must be some way to start on the organ. He was great to listen to and got right in the middle with all the kids - encouraging them to try out the organ. Sort of unexpected for your world - famous, jet set. He is probably about my dd age now - maybe a little older. Since it sounds like you are looking for your son thought I'd pass that on - maybe you could get some of his CDs.
Janet
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JennGM
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 Thanks, Janet! I was waiting for your wisdom! I know the conflicting messages from organ teachers -- I had a few in my lifetime, each with a different philosophy. You learn to listen to all the opinions and decide which ones to take to heart or not.
I agree with the home organ in some aspects, but still it's good to have SOMETHING for daily practice. In my area it just seemed so impossible to ever find a church available, hence no daily practice, except on piano, so the confusion of touch and technique made me regress. You had to know the right people to get permission to play the "good" organs.
And yes, those old beautiful pipe organs are DELICIOUS to play. I loved getting to play a variety for weddings. Some were awful, but then there were some that I felt like I had died and went to heaven!
Picking a keyboard...a couple of thoughts. Get one with full-size keys. It doesn't have to be 88 keys to imitate a piano at first, but if you start taking piano instruction, the teacher will probably insist on it. If you are leaning towards the piano world, and then dabble in organ, get weighted keys, that imitate the feel of the piano keys. I have used in the past a Roland, full-size and weighted keyboard and was surprisingly pleased. I used it for accompanying the musicals at our local Catholic high school, and it was a workhorse and very pleasing.
I referred to some Piano World Forums in one of my posts above. There is a place to pose questions in a digital forum. You could ask recommendations for keyboards, giving specifics of why you are looking for one. Don't take everything they say as set in stone, as there are dealers on the board, but you might get a few ideas.
Lastly, don't forget the used market world. Classifieds, eBay, Craigslist might have some good keyboards. Again, if you find one advertised that looks good, pose a question on those forums to get some feedback, if you are nervous about it.
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ALmom
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Once you start taking lessons, finding an organ to practice on is no problem - because you automatically have practice time on the organ where you take lessons (assuming you go with a teacher and are not self-taught). However, churches are picky about not letting an "unknown" practice on their organ, especially if it has pipes, so practicing would be difficult if you were teaching yourself. Even in college music buildings, these practice rooms are kept locked because it is very easy to mess up the tuning if you don't know what you are doing - and the organ is very, very expensive to tune.
Things are a bit easier now than in the past as far as getting a practice instrument as the churches are so much more desperate for organists and will generally allow advanced students to practice in return for a willingness to be called as a substitute. Also your teacher can also often work something out with other organ teachers. Some organs are better suited for different styles of music than others and you have to adjust how you play on them - using the stops and swell box in differing ways. Some churches only have two levels of keyboard, some have 4. Obviously, you have to adjust for that. I'm getting way out of my element now - but this is stuff that you start trying to become familiar with as you get more experience on the organ.
One advantage we have in Alabama is that we could go with any teacher in our city and have no more than a 30 minute drive - something that probably isn't possible in say DC or somewhere. So for us, while the need to drive is a pain (until dc is old enough to drive themselves), it is not quite the logistical nightmare it would be in other cities.
If you are getting lessons in piano, be sure you check with your teacher first, before investing in keyboard. Some teachers require a real piano before they will teach you - and a committment to have it tuned at least once per year. Even the best keyboards can only approximate the feel of the piano - and while it helps that they are portable, they still do not have the sound or feel of a real piano - some teachers don't worry about this in the early years of lessons, others do insist that you start with the actual piano. The expense of a really good keyboard (with weighted keys and pedal) are about the same as a good used piano when we checked. We got a great deal on a very nice piano - which worked for us for many years. However, now dd is saving up because she has to practice some of her piano pieces at the church where she practices organ - our piano doesn't have a sostinooda pedal (I don't know how to spell the darn thing - or even what it does, but dd uses it in her pieces now). The further she goes in music, the more I feel like I don't know - and the more surprizes. At least the church with her favorite organ and the grand piano with sostinooda pedal(evidently not all have it and you should count keys before buying a grand as some of the older ones are short of keys) is across the street from the main library.  We have learned tons from our piano tuner as we chat while he tunes the piano - one advantage of being in the chatty south.
Janet
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Dawn
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Janet, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and infomation! I am planning to print out this entire thread to re-read, hi-light and show to dh! I am not sure exactly what we will do next ~ piano/keyboards? home program/lessons? ~ but all this has sparked my own interest in learning to play along with my kids! Has anyone else taken up piano this "late" in life ?
I was thinking a home-program to start because I can guage the actual level of interest and commitment ... outside lessons would be one more thing to get to, and with my youngest child's therapy our schedule is pretty packed already.
If the home program proves inadequate, though, the next step would be to find a teacher and go from there. There are a couple of piano teachers in our homeschool circle, one who comes to your home (if you have a piano of course) and one who teaches in her home ...
Well, we have a lot to think about ... but I am excited to be starting out on this ~ we have been musically neglectful for too long!
Thank you again, everyone, for thinking me through this and giving so generously of your time. I truly appreciate your help!
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ALmom wrote:
| One advantage we have in Alabama is that we could go with any teacher in our city and have no more than a 30 minute drive - something that probably isn't possible in say DC or somewhere. So for us, while the need to drive is a pain (until dc is old enough to drive themselves), it is not quite the logistical nightmare it would be in other cities. |
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You are so blessed. That was my problem...the distance to everything. I live outside of DC, not in the bustling county, either. Until recently we were in the boonies. It still has the reputation, and art, music, culture usually requires a drive.
When we came here from Louisiana, I took lessons from an organ teacher through the community college. There are several campuses, but the only campus with an organ was Loudoun county and an hour's drive for me. The teacher was a Catholic organist, but his parish was also an hour for me. And working and going to school left little time for driving just for practice!
ALmom wrote:
| We have learned tons from our piano tuner as we chat while he tunes the piano - one advantage of being in the chatty south. |
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I love talking to the piano technician! Years ago when we started having a tuner coming over to our house in LA, I was just fascinated by the whole thing. I started reading about it, and very interested in becoming a tuner. I mentioned it to our technician and he discouraged me saying that woman aren't usually in this field because they don't have the upper body strength. Being only 11-12 at the time, this devastated me, and dissuaded me from pursuing any further. Now I find that was just his opinion, and there are many successful and fine piano technicians.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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4Real Forums : The Arts in the Everyday
Topic: organ instruction
