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Sarah
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This has been on my mind a lot lately.
"As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything." Eph.5:24
It says in "everything," not just the big things. What does subordinate mean exactly? I heard it explained as "yielding to another out of love" not as a slave to a master (forced).
How does this look in a Catholic marriage in 2006? What are some examples throughout our day where we are called to be subordinate to our husbands? What are ways we can fall into a trap of not being what we are called to be?
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Helen
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Hi Sarah
Last year when I read Nesta de Robeck's biography of St. Elizabeth of Hungary, I thought the book helped me to understand the way a married saint lives a holy life.
I put together a series of posts on the subject.
Here is another reflection on obedience.
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stacykay
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If you have a lot of time on your hands!  , here is a link from Fr. John Riccardo, a local priest, who wrote a paper on this very topic.
Fr. Riccardo has spoken at the local men and women's conferences, and is on our local Catholic radio once a week.
The paper he wrote is 130+ pages long (but there are many footnotes!)
I have not read this whole thing, but wanted to pass it along, if it would help.
God Bless,
Stacy in MI
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KC in TX
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I have a hard time with this one. My problem stems from not being able or willing to let go of control. I'm also unsure of how much I'm supposed to be subordinate to dh. It's been something I've pondered for a few years with no answer.
Sorry, no answers for you, but I'm looking forward to the other posts. I'm going to try to read the links Stacy and Helen have given.
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Bridget
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We submit because God called us to it and we love Him, first.
Then I submit because I want to honor my husband, make his life more pleasant and help him work out his salvation. I submit because it helps me to be feminine in the way God created me to be and my husband to be more masculine in the way he was created to be.
I try to do it with joy and love, even when my heart isn't in it. No man wants his wife to submit with grim determination to do her duty.
In practical terms this means I iron a shirt he asked for before I relax and check email. It means the floors are clear of toys when he gets home because that bothers him. It means I smile and drop what I'm doing to greet him when he comes home. He is the person I have been waiting for all day and I make sure he knows it.
I check with him on the things I know he cares about and occasionally on the things he doesn’t care about, just in case his thoughts have changed
This year we enrolled in Seton for our schooling because he requested it. It is not how I want to school. But he wanted some structure and measurable results. The way I schooled before was more intuitive and it didn't make sense to him. (Though he has always been supportive.) I can't believe how enthusiastic and involved he is now. He is proud of what we're doing. It helps the children’s enthusiasm too. THAT is worth more than gold. It happened because I submitted.
.
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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momwats8
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Ok - Bridget - that was AWESOME!!! I must say I have to work hard in this area and am far from "there" yet. I am very strong willed and am not a follower. I like to know where I am going well before I get there. It has made this area hard for us. Over the past few months I have felt called to work on some areas and one is being more submissive and less of a nag. I realized I nag because I want to feel "in control'. I have begun working on doing things cheerfully - even when I do not want to, not over riding him even if I do not agree, and letting him take the lead on major decisions in our life. An example is now as we are looking for a house. I have basically let him take the reigns and have submitted in areas I probably wouldn't have before. I have only asked that it have more than 3 bedrooms as we have only one girl and she cannot sleep with her brothers forever. Also I highy doubt we are done having children and so we will need space if we had another boy.
One last thought - In most major decisions we have agreed that if we are not in complete agreement then Mike as head of our household gets to make the call. It is not always easy as you can see, but the rewards are great. thanks for helping me to think more about this and work harder to be a better wife and partner to my dh.
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Mary- Wife to Mike and Mother to Austin(92), Mikey(95), R.J.(97), Benedict(98), Kolbe(00), Ignatius(02), Christian(03), Margaret(05),&4 angels in heaven
http://www.momwats8.blogspot.com
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stefoodie
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Wow, Bridget. And I thought I was "submissive enough". Like I should really be offline now, because hubby prefers it if we're in bed, lights out by 10. He's said this so many times but I still have difficulty obeying him most days. I will get off now  and pray for the grace to submit to my husband the way you do to yours.
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Martha
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okay I'm thoroughly confused.
either I'm submissive and don't even know it (very possible  )
or
what you ladies are calling submission we call simple conversation and life in general around our house?
I'm not trying to pick. I'm honestly confused and admittedly annoyed by this whole wife submission concept. 
I agree. What Bridget wrote was very good wifelyness.  But I don't see any submission there. I see simple acts of love that any normal and healthy marriage should have on the part of BOTH spouses.
Showing an interest in each other's opinions and interest? Being glad to see each other and showing it? Discussing what's best for the kids' education? That's examples of submission?? Sharing ideas and opinions and making decisions together? In our house, that's just a loving marriage and it has absolutely nothing to do with wife vs husband duties.
Please no tomatoes! I'm sincere here. Is submission simply communication on the part of BOTH spouses? Or are we talking about something else?
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amyable
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking the submission in Martha's post were the examples of where she did something because her husband said to (or wants her to) even though SHE doesn't feel like or really want to do it that way:
-using Seton because he said to (when she would rather do it another way)
-ironing a shirt he wanted (when she would rather be sitting down)
-cleaning toys up before he comes home because it's his preference
Yes, these things can also just be loving wifely duties, I guess the submission comes in because the wife wants it one way, and the husband wants it another - and the wife decides to just say "OK, yes dear" to the husband and do what HE wants.
This is pretty much how things work "submission wise" around here. Although I'm not totally over the grumbling and complaining part  . My dh has typically has very strong opinions about how things should be done, and I will give my thoughts, but try to quickly agree that we will do things his way, happily (no matter what I was thinking in the first place). I do find this difficult - but I have found that if it's important, submitting to dh, and then praying that God make dh's heart more like His on the situation, often gets things accomplished in a good way. Sometimes my way, sometimes dh's, sometimes a third, different way (God's?)...and all while I kept dh's "ego" (or whatever it is) intact by saying, "Yes dear, that is fine, you are a smart man and I know you make good decisions."
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Elizabeth
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I couldn't get to this thread at 4:00 this morning so I took a crack at it here.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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stefoodie
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Helen, I just read yours and Elizabeth's posts on this. I especially needed these today. And as I commented on Elizabeth's post, I'm suddenly realizing how much I have to relearn what submission is. I've always "submitted" to hubby on the big things, but I often fail to in the little things, and I'm seeing now that put together they may not be so little after all. Thanks for your wise words!
God bless,
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Elizabeth
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Martha wrote:
| Please no tomatoes! I'm sincere here. Is submission simply communication on the part of BOTH spouses? Or are we talking about something else? |
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I think you've raised great questions here, Martha. Your confusion is very understandable. One thing the "mutual submission" line of thinking frequently does is create an atmosphere where women who are philosophically inclined spend as much or more time looking at the man's role as they do prayerfully considering their own roles. In doidng so, they misunderstand the nature of submission.
Submission is not simply communication. Submission is really, truly sitting at the feet of our husbands. It's humility. In today's society, it's the radical idea that we complement him, we help him, we love him unconditionally, AND, we acknowledge that he is the head of the household. He's a tender leader. He loves us as Christ loves the Church. Well, Christ loved the Church so much He died for it.
And so does my husband love me. Every morning, when that alarm clock goes off--often before 5AM--and he goes to catch an early flight and every night, when he falls asleep alone in a sterile hotel room, he dies to himself in service to his family. Every time he is open to life, he puts God's plan for our family ahead of his own agenda. Again and again, he offers his life. That's his submission. He submits his whole life to his wife and the children they are raising in love. That's a very different thing than equal leadership (an impossibility). Sometimes, that submission requires him to exercise courage beyond the conversation. Using one of Bridget's examples: He has to look at the woman he loves, who has been faithfully educating their seven children in her own style and say, "We need to do it my way." He's out there all alone in his decree. He's the last person before God. If he's wrong on this decision, it's all him. She can explain her perspective. She can share real and relevant knowledge, both about education and about their children. She can explain how her method works (or doesn't) in the context of their household. That's the communication part. But he ultimately makes the decision. And he answers to God for it. She has to tell God she was obedient. She has to tell God that she took what he asked and she did her faithful best with it. He is the man; she is the helpmeet. And it works. There's no struggle between the two of them. The only struggles are within themselves. He struggles to be courageous, to get up in the morning, to provide well, to lead with virtue. She struggles to be humble, to be obedient, to be gentle. But they don't struggle with each other. They are both working together to live their own unique vocations.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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aussieannie
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That was lovely reading, Elizabeth - thank you.
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MacBeth
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Sorry for the cut and paste (NAB):
21 Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. [emphasis mine>
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Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.
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For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.
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As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.
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Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her
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to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,
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that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
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So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
I do not think we can look at Eph. 5: 24 without looking at the passages before and after, which give reasons ("Out of reverence for Christ") and corollaries ("Husbands, love your wives...").
In fact, I think we wives have been charged with the easier task.
Hey, have a little fun with it! Try submitting on everything for a week, and see if it does not drive the husband crazy. Try this not to "show him," but to show yourself how St. Paul can never be taken one line at a time, and make sense.
I think we can see that without the balance that St. Paul clearly outlines, a marriage is reduced to either a skirmish without submission, or indentured service. Rather, St. Paul gives us the means to make our homes and families places of peace and harmony.
Of course, I might know all this and still fail, mightily!
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God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
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Bridget
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From experience and observation, I think that when a wife submits joyfully in the small things, her husband becomes a more thoughtful, talented leader in all areas.
Most reasonable men aren't going to turn into a tyrant, but the road there can be rough. As with anything else worth doing, it can be difficult. The couple may struggle to figure out new dynamics and Satan WILL attack their efforts. (I don't mean to sound over dramatic.)
The rewards of a husband who is a strong leader IN HIS OWN STYLE are so great for a marriage, the whole family and society, that we must strive for it.
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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guitarnan
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I think this is a great topic. One thing our "modern" culture has done is to make men feel very, very inadequate. Now women don't need men...don't need them to be husbands and fathers, don't need them to support the family, don't need them to provide love and emotional support...according to the media, we can do all that on our own. (And let's not even talk about how the media implies that kids don't need good parents!) In the workplace, employees are expendable...there's no job security in most fields, and our husbands know it. No matter how hard they work, they can be laid off.
My conclusion is that wifely submission, and acknowledgement that the husband really is the head of the family, means even more now than it did when St. Paul wrote his letters to the early Christians. We're the only ones who can tell our husbands that their work and sacrifices have real meaning in our lives. We're the only ones who can say, "I trust you to make the best choices for us," and truly mean it.
It's not easy...just like KC, I have had to learn to be in charge when my husband's gone. I often make huge decisions without him because he's on some ship somewhere. I really try hard to defer those decisions until I can speak with my husband, but sometimes I can't. I reconcile this with St. Paul by realizing that my husband needs a strong helpmeet. If I were afraid to travel/move/discipline/decide on my own, our family would fall apart whenever he left. That doesn't relieve me of my responsibility to look to my husband when important issues are at stake. Another thing that helped me with this was reading that Pope John Paul II said that wives did need to step up if their husbands couldn't be true heads of the family, especially in the area of religious education for children. It's not wrong to be a strong helpmeet. (If it is, I'm in biiiig trouble!)
I think this is one of those issues that make Christianity so hard for people to understand...we have chosen to reject what our sterile culture says is OK. We've chosen to embrace life and love instead. How weird is that?
Glad to be weird,
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Bridget
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MacBeth wrote:
I think we can see that without the balance that St. Paul clearly outlines, a marriage is reduced to either a skirmish without submission, or indentured service. |
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No, I'm sure this is not what St. Paul intends. We wives can only control ourselves and we would do well to embrace Paul's specific instructions to us. The fruits are a lovely version, unique to each marriage, of his over all vision of marriage.
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Martha
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MacBeth wrote:
I think we can see that without the balance that St. Paul clearly outlines, a marriage is reduced to either a skirmish without submission, or indentured service. Rather, St. Paul gives us the means to make our homes and families places of peace and harmony.
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hear! hear! I think missing that sense of balance is what bothers me when I have these conversations.
How does offerring an opinion or different perspective hurt the guy's manhood? In fact, I would think not being honest and up front with our spouses would actually set them up for failures as leaders in the home. Leaders can't lead without being informed. Providers can't provide if they don't know what you need and want. Stroking a man's ego when in fact he has a weak area that needs to be taken into account does not seem to make sense to me.
For example, I've been in Bridget's Seton decision shoes. I'm a very harsh critic of the kids writing. 2 years ago, I was frustrated and dh said I was asking too much. (His pet peeve is that he has to work with grown adults with worse writing skills than our 3rd graders.) So we talked about it and decided we'd let an impartial 3rd party grade it that we both agreed was fairly challenging. So now, we enroll for Seton's reading and english courses.
The house thing... I've told my dh what I need and what I'd like to make it worth it to move to me. This has made it much easier for him to not only refine his search, but to have confidence in his ability to give his fmily what they need. If I just said "whatever you find will be fine", I would be setting all of us up for disappointment and hardship. (And in my case, lying through my pearly whites and annoying my dh to no end.  )
And I do consider the dh's role in the house when evaluating my own role. That isn't a man bashing session. It's reality. If I know my dh can help me in a certain area to be a better wife, shouldn't I tell him of this need? If I know I need a certain quality or attitude from him, doesn't it make it easier for him to know that? Shouldn't he do the same? We've done this many times over the years. Usually we are shocked and saddened that we were unaware of what we were doing or not doing and work quickly to reverse any problems.
Yeah. It's a huge blow to the ego at times for both of us. But it would hurt more to continue on in the same manner when a simple heart to heart could change it.
My dh wants to know if the problem we are having understanding this submission thing is that neither of us have ever had a serious major disagreement? Really. My dh rarely has to ask things of me, it's just understood. I have to say it's mutual. (A friend of mine says this is because my dh already has me well trained. )
I guess when we hear "submission" we hear "unbalanced marriage." We both try very hard to do what's best for the family as a whole. Not for me. Not for him. Not for the kids. But for the family.
Sorry if I'm long-winded or the writing is off.. Serving breakfast, having coffee, and so on in between typing! 
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Martha
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Martha
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guitarnan wrote:
I think this is a great topic. One thing our "modern" culture has done is to make men feel very, very inadequate. Now women don't need men...don't need them to be husbands and fathers, don't need them to support the family, don't need them to provide love and emotional support...according to the media, we can do all that on our own. (And let's not even talk about how the media implies that kids don't need good parents!) In the workplace, employees are expendable...there's no job security in most fields, and our husbands know it. No matter how hard they work, they can be laid off.
My conclusion is that wifely submission, and acknowledgement that the husband really is the head of the family, means even more now than it did when St. Paul wrote his letters to the early Christians. We're the only ones who can tell our husbands that their work and sacrifices have real meaning in our lives. We're the only ones who can say, "I trust you to make the best choices for us," and truly mean it.
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Now this I completely agree with and understand 100%! I guess I'm still just thoroughly confused as to how that is submissive. I may be a hopeless case on this topic. I feel like I've missing the forest for all the trees.
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Martha
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Helen
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Thanks Brigid,
I am going to try to greet my husband the way you suggest.
Weds is our long day, so I haven't had a chance to read through this whole thread, I look forward to it later on.
But,if my husband says to me:
Would you mind...
Could you call...
or Please clear the junk away from the telephone area...
then that is the one *must do* for me before God. I have until my husband gets home to fit the thing into the day. I do the "requested item" in a spirit of obedience because I am looking to listen to the Lord in all things.
I have found that the more I am listening to my husband and trying to obey him in this spirit, the more he listens to me and is much more in tuned to what is going on with me.
In one of our Franciscan classes, Father B. pointed out that a man, in marrying, has made the first sacrifice. He has given his strength over to provide and protect a wife and family. I understood this to mean that the next act is for the wife to become sumbmissive and then women will see the fruits of the husband treating the wife as Christ loved the Church.
I've said more than I really have time to say. I hope it is coherent.
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Ave Maria!
Mom to 5 girls and 3 boys
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Wives Subordinate in Everything
