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Willa
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| Posted: July 22 2009 at 12:55pm | IP Logged
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I'd like to talk about this thread Compulsion just a bit more.
Every summer I plan all these things I want to have my kids do. They are GOOD things, not just busywork, things I believe in -- Latin, narration, reading good books, all that.
However, when the rubber hits the road in the fall I run into the difference between my plans and the reality that it can be HARD to learn. Sometimes things are not immediately rewarding. The kids complain, or they make little progress, or they get that look in their eyes that tells me they are withdrawing from their commitment to learn, and this discourages me. I'm not talking about dealing with resistance; that's not difficult for me; I'm talking about heart attitudes and the "GOOD" learning really influencing them in a good way, so that they become lifelong learners.
I am an unschooly type and I do think that children learn to do "hard things" by immersing themselves in things they are very interested in. However, I don't like to make that the only operating principle of my homeschool.
So what am I asking?
What makes you continue to push something even if it's not going over too well? what are the "rubber hits the road" reasons that pull you over a tough section in math or a balkiness in narration, or whatever day to day challenges you face? (there are always some).
What's the point where you feel the difficulties aren't worth it, that it's time to choose another approach or drop the issue temporarily?
How do you make "difficult things pleasant to children"? (a quote from Climbing Parnassus, attributed to a Spartan).
I hope this question makes sense. I was planning to blog about it but wanted to ask for some thoughts on the subject, first. It seems so vague now that I've written it out, but I hope you get the basic idea of what I'm asking.
I'd like to hear a range of opinions so please feel free to share any thoughts you have on the subject.
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Willa
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mom3aut1not
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Willa,
I don't know if my thoughts will be helpful at all.... but here goes. Bear in mind that I am not an unschooly person. I tried for a while, but.....
As you know, I have kids who struggle or have struggled with basic skills (speaking fluently, for example) where the pace of progress is glacial. (I remember my middle dd crying after speech and language therapy in first grade because it was so hard for her.I felt really bad, but she had to learn to speak well enough to function.) I feel or felt free to reward them with a treat for good work because they won't see the benefits of their hard work for a long time (as in years).
In cases where the progress is *not* so slow that they can't really see the goal of it all, I do not give rewards, but I do try to make their studies as interesting as possible and to incorporate their interests if I can.
With my oldest dd, I did a tremendous amount of work trying to make math palatable for her. I did everything I could think of at the time. I used nontraditional materials, hands on materials, etc. Nothing made her like math. The only thing I ever used that she liked was Googles, Fractals, and Other Mathematical Tales. Now I would have more resources that she might like, and I might have the time to devise a program for her, but if worse came to worst, if I didn't have the time or resources to devise the perfect program, I would insist on her doing math with whatever material I managed to come up with.
In another case where the child didn't seem to "get it", I just dropped that topic for a period.
What summary does this lead to?
What I do depends, really, on the situation. THere is no one answer. For essential skills, I insist on daily effort. I may give rewards if the goal is very far off and the struggle considerable. If a particular topic is a problem, I may drop it for a time or find a new approach. If the topic is not really important, I may decide that exposure is enough or just drop that topic. Sometimes, though, I just insist on doing the work.
When do I reach that point that I drop a topic or an approach? I consider my goals. The more important the goal, the less likely I am to drop it. For example, for my little guy to learn certain terms in math is of very little importance. I won't waste much of his effort on it if he doesn't seem to get it. On the other hand, we do three separate SLT activities each day whether he feels like it or not. If he struggles with something, I consult with his SLP. I may push on or drop an activity. I dropped "How" questions because he had no clue. I kept on with inferences -- very simple ones -- because he had a tiny clue. He has made significant progress in inferences after much work, but more work remains.
I do consider the format -- truly difficult things was covered frequently (often daily) but not for a long time. Unloved things that are not inherently difficult have to be done, but I may alter an approach or an assignment upon appeal.
Except for my oldest dd (who had serious issues in adolescence that had a big impact on her homeschooling), math for my oldest dd, and the sixteen-year-old-slump (a common slump for girls in my experience) that all three of my dd's had, I have not had too much trouble in this area.
I hope my exposition is not so vague that it is useless to you.
In Christ,
Deborah
Mom to Lisa '83, Katie '86, Kristin '88, and Joseph '00
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Willa
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| Posted: July 22 2009 at 10:09pm | IP Logged
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It is helpful, Deborah --
The way I understand what you're saying is that you look for where they're at least potentially "emergent" -- where a bit more work can get them to the point where they are understanding it somewhat.
Where they are completely blank or there's just such a resistance that it seems like continued work would be useless or harmful, or the topic is really non-essential at that point, you're more likely to move to a different topic or present it a different way.
Is that the general idea?
If so, I think that's similar to how I operate, too, but I think it's hard not to let my emotions get involved, so it's helpful to have the strategy planned out ahead of time.... like a flow chart 
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Willa
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mom3aut1not
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Willa,
I think you generally have my take on the topic. However, writing a relatively serious and lengthy post when my dh has recently gone on TDY is not a good idea apparently. I made a grammatical error and was ambiguous in one point.
I wrote, "I do consider the format -- truly difficult things was covered frequently (often daily) but not for a long time." I meant that I spend a short time each day, but I may cover the skill or topic on a near daily basis for months. I worked on inferences for example on a daily basis for a few months, and I continue to work on it at least twice a week with Joseph. Little by slowly is my motto.
I like the term 'potentially "emergent."' (Please excuse my tired brain; I can't remember whether the singleton quotation marks are on the inside or the outside.)
If my thoughts are helpful, I am glad. I never thought of it explicitly as a strategy. It was just whatever helped me help my kids.
(Forgive this bad joke.) I guess you can just go with the "flow" chart.
In Christ,
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julia s.
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I've been thinking about this a lot. I've been reading Weapons of Mass Instruction and Beatrix Potter: A life in Nature by Linda Leary and a bunch of books on Our Blessed Mother and trying to find a balance between what the children "really" need and what I get obsessed with them needing.
I think it can come down to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes I'm inspired in my planning by the Holy Spirit, but then I'll see their little faces giving me that look or I didn't plan it out well and it wasn't well received -- and I start to back-peddle out of it. But lately I ask myself -- was this my plan I was trying to carry out or was it God's plan? If I can say it was God's plan I re-evaluate and then get back to it.
That sounds more airy than it really is in practice. I am usually patient with the skills my children learn and when they learn them. My first son took a while to learn to read (and he still has some minor problems to work out), but I never pushed him that hard. He considers himself a "reader". So skills like that I see as long-term and no rush.
I get more turned around on things like doing an Nature Journal (I promised we'd do one for years and it has never happened). I'm not someone to force this kind of skill on others. But I'm wondering now if it isn't the Holy Spirit putting it in my heart to do with them each year. And then I have to remind myself if it is -- I'm not alone in teaching them this -- that God perfects my weakness. That being open to the Lord in this way is just another form of handing over my will.
I'm sorry if this gets you too far off track and is not very helpful. I just thought I'd mention what's been going through my mind lately. It is not an easy question to answer -- I think it is in someways
the question. It's where the rubber meets the road in life, especially in parenting.
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Willa
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| Posted: July 23 2009 at 4:10pm | IP Logged
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mom3aut1not wrote:
| (Forgive this bad joke.) I guess you can just go with the "flow" chart. |
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 My new motto for the year, totally  
Julia wrote:
| It is not an easy question to answer -- I think it is in someways the question. It's where the rubber meets the road in life, especially in parenting. |
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Yes, that's what I think too. And I think especially with academics because they're in some ways "extra" -- I mean, you can be a good parent without actually teaching school stuff, if you live in a primitive culture, or delegate your kids' schooling.
So I feel more like I'm making it up as I go along, with academics, than I do with parenting.
The way we've done things so far has worked pretty well, but it's never perfect, and I think the first couple of weeks in fall are always a bit of a letdown -- I probably get too invested in my plans and hate seeing them bumped up by reality -- closet perfectionism!
It probably makes more sense to do the planning so I'm prepared, but prepared to "let it go" if it works out differently than I expect it will. A lot of the good things that have happened in homeschooling have been things I couldn't predict.
I think the idea of discerning whether it's God's plan is a good one and I think I'll try to make a habit of taking that kind of thing to God this year. Thanks for the reminder.
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Willa
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Mackfam
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Willa wrote:
What makes you continue to push something even if it's not going over too well? what are the "rubber hits the road" reasons that pull you over a tough section in math or a balkiness in narration, or whatever day to day challenges you face? (there are always some).
What's the point where you feel the difficulties aren't worth it, that it's time to choose another approach or drop the issue temporarily?
How do you make "difficult things pleasant to children"? |
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I've been pondering your questions for a few days, Willa. I don't think I have anything original to add though, but the thought has been on my mind as well so I thought I'd jump into the discussion in all humility recognizing that this conversation is likely way over my head.
I'm not sure where I'd self identify totally...motivated by the philosophy of Charlotte Mason, some classical, with an approach that is somewhat unschooly and a little Montessori - I do also enjoy implementing a very gentle approach, particularly in the early years. Does that seem completely diametrically opposed? It sure sounds far-fetched in writing it, but it's who we are.  What I enjoy about unschooling AND CM AND Montessori is that all of them are fundamentally grounded in an education "for the children's sake", one in which the children are considered and deeply involved in the process.
I seem to have found my stride after really incorporating a Montessori attitude of observation coupled with an unschooling attitude of discussion and dialogue which welcomes input and considers it integral to the process. From there, I break it down into bitesize chunks through planning (where I fear I break with unschoolers, so I'm always leary to identify with them for fear that I will somehow muddy the philosophy.)
Anyway, what does all this have to do with compulsion and excellence? What I've discovered as I have undertaken this philosophy of observation, discussion, dialogue, plan - is that some of the need for compulsion has dissolved through dialogue. That doesn't mean that there isn't a little compulsion here - math would probably not be a choice for my daughter. But, it does mean that through dialogue I can understand better what the motivation is behind the frustration/lack of desire - is it in approach, quantity, choice of topic matter - further, with other subjects, sometimes there is a sensitivity level to a certain subject or aspect of that subject that the children have difficulty communicating. In a dialogue that is unhurried, one in which I'm really seeking to hear and understand, I can often pick up on the subtle motivations behind the surface balkiness. With creativity I seek to transform something so that it is presented in a pleasing way to the child. I think unschoolers call this strewing. (!! I'm definitely NOT implying that you aren't entering dialogue - I sort of look to you as an example of fostering dialogue with beautiful results - these are more reflections that I have noticed with my own style that seems to have really smoothed into a lovely pace/approach for us!!)
When there is a need for compulsion, it too is a part of this dialogue -
:: Does the child understand the motivation I have in requiring this study - more than, "because this is what we study in the 8th grade" and more like, "I feel Latin is important because ___fill in the blank____. Do you understand why I feel this is important? Can we talk about why you aren't interested?"
:: Are they in agreement that the topic/unit of study must be accomplished?
:: Can they identify what in particular they dislike?
:: Can they identify something about the topic/course of study that does interest them - even something small?
:: Are they simply interested in investing their time/energy elsewhere and this feels like a tangent to them that they are not willing to pursue at this time...but perhaps in the near future?
:: Is there a greater good involved that requires compulsion over motivation...I'm thinking of a study of religion or theology here. In this case, I suppose I'd look again to presentation - is there a way I could make this less difficult, easier to understand, less intimidating? Is there a way I can communicate the need for this through example or church history? Am I communicating this in a way the child is most open to hearing? How have I offered the material/presentation in a way that is attractive to the child?
I have encountered serious balking and reserved balking and continuing with reservations. The only time I encountered serious balking was when I was directing more and dialoguing less. So, for our family, I'm finding that dialogue is key, both in the child's understanding of needs and mine.
As far as "rubber meets the road" reasons for sticking with something - compelling or not - I would guess mine are similar to most...or maybe not? I think I just consider our family's mission and personal philosophy as it regards homeschooling in this decision. Why are we homeschooling? What are we homeschooling for? What is the end goal? I look to our family philosophy as the guiding principle. If dropping a course or topic will not impact that family philosophy negatively, then I would probably drop it. If it would have a detrimental impact on that philosophy, I would initiate a serious dialogue in seeking to understand and accomodate so that compelling looks less like compelling and more like cooperation - even if it is cooperation with reservations because even then I believe the undertaking is more worthwhile because the child is invested in the decision and outcome to some degree.
I hope this makes some sense...and I hope it doesn't seem persnickety or uppety. I enjoy so much just listening from the sidelines on these discussions usually! I wasn't sure if sticking my oar in would be even remotely helpful.
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Willa
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Mackfam wrote:
:: Is there a greater good involved that requires compulsion over motivation...I'm thinking of a study of religion or theology here. In this case, I suppose I'd look again to presentation - is there a way I could make this less difficult, easier to understand, less intimidating? Is there a way I can communicate the need for this through example or church history? Am I communicating this in a way the child is most open to hearing? How have I offered the material/presentation in a way that is attractive to the child?
I have encountered serious balking and reserved balking and continuing with reservations. The only time I encountered serious balking was when I was directing more and dialoguing less. So, for our family, I'm finding that dialogue is key, both in the child's understanding of needs and mine. |
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Jen, I take it by "dialogue" you don't mean a democratic vote --
you mean articulating why the subject is important(let's say math or vocabulary, something that isn't fun for a given kid) from your perspective as a parent, and listening to their response with a view of trying to flex where you can -- like perhaps having them do part of their work orally, if that makes it go better for them. That kind of thing?
Or take religion -- you might insist on certain family devotions but give a smaller child a coloring book so that he had something to keep his little hands occupied? like that?
Or inspiring by example through history, as you said?
I'm not trying to rewrite what you all are telling me -- I just want to make sure I'm understanding it the way you're saying it.
I guess what I'm doing is trying to put together a kind of tool-box. I realized while praying over my planning this summer that the page number breakdowns are fairly close to useless to me -- they're easy to put together if I have to during the year, but I hardly ever use them. It's with questions more like these ones I'm asking (in my vague way) that I get stuck and start second-guessing myself. So having a list of strategies that I'd thought about ahead of time would be helpful, I thought.
I really appreciate the responses, thanks so much!
I don't think this is over anyone's head -- though maybe I'm saying it in a more complicated way than I need to. I realize that I'm pretty good at planning, pretty good at the big picture, but actually implementing is often not as easy for me. So no idea is too small or obvious... honestly
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Willa
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Mackfam
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Willa wrote:
Jen, I take it by "dialogue" you don't mean a democratic vote --
you mean articulating why the subject is important(let's say math or vocabulary, something that isn't fun for a given kid) from your perspective as a parent, and listening to their response with a view of trying to flex where you can -- like perhaps having them do part of their work orally, if that makes it go better for them. That kind of thing?
Or take religion -- you might insist on certain family devotions but give a smaller child a coloring book so that he had something to keep his little hands occupied? like that?
Or inspiring by example through history, as you said? |
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Yes, that is exactly what I mean.
Dialogue does not equal democratic vote here because I believe I would be handing over my responsibility to educate the children in some sense. It does however allow the child a great voice, an integral voice, in his/her education which I do believe is very important.
Is it possible to make the analogy of the relationship of the authority of husband and wife here - it's not completely comparable, but I think it illustrates the relationship? My husband is very considerate of my opinions (of which I have a number  ) and seeks to take into account my views in all things. He is motivated by love, but also out of a deep respect for me and my insights. More often than not, we agree on a course of action together. There are some cases however in which he moves forward and makes a decision based on the welfare and needs of the family that may be in contrast or conflict with my opinions and wishes. He always communicates the why of those decisions to me, asks for my input, seeks to find ways to make the decision more palatable within reason, etc., but does not give up his role of the head of the family and the authority or responsibility that conveys. In this way, I can feel involved and a part of this decision even though it was made contrary to my own opinion. Because respect is always communicated through dialogue, there is no need to question his motivation, I know it is for the good of the family. I believe it is this model I try to emulate when in dialogue with the children regarding their education. Is that an inappropriate analogy?
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lapazfarm
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Interesting.I'm afraid you ladies have gone much deeper than my brain can handle right now, but I wanted to put in my very simple 2 cents worth.
For me, in deciding whether or not to push something I have to ask myself a simple question: "by pushing this, will I be doing more harm than good?"---sort of a "Hippocratic oath" of homeschooling, I suppose.
It's a simple question with some not-so-simple answers sometimes.And one that must be asked and answered on an individual basis each time, so I'm not sure if there can be any pre-determined checklist of when to push and when not to, kwim?
I mean, exactly when does the potential harm of damaging a love of learning outweigh the benefit of learning a certain math concept or scientific principle? Hard to say, but I do lean toward the "do no harm" side of things, I think.
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Willa
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lapazfarm wrote:
| have to ask myself a simple question: "by pushing this, will I be doing more harm than good?"---sort of a "Hippocratic oath" of homeschooling, I suppose. |
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So funny -- I am always saying to myself "First do no harm..."
But you're right of course, Theresa, and that's exactly where the rubber hits the road for me. How do I decide what will do harm vs what will be beneficial?
I think you're right, there's no one answer, but are there any principles you use to decide? Is there anything you see in a kid's reaction that helps you decide? (not trying to put you on the spot, but just asking a general question that I think about a lot).
I think probably in past centuries the society was clearer on what education is and what value it had, so everyone was basically on the same page. Now, so often, it's difficult even to decide that.
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Willa
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: "Compulsion" and Excellence
