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Martha
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sorry I didn't respond sooner, ...
Bookswithtea wrote:
| one of the things he took away from it was to trust sons with big and dangerous things if we want them to act like men. He gave examples like caring for the cows if you are a rancher, or driving your truck at 14 if you own land, etc. I am wondering if this is the same sort of thing you are getting at? |
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yes, very much so in fact. actually, he goes further than that even, imho. he says they should be branching out from the home by the age of 12 or 14. IOW, not just manly stuff at home under parental supervision. And not just boys either for that matter.
for example, he gives the account of Tania Aebi, who dropped out of highschool to sail around the world ALONE with little to zero experience. He writes, "She taught herself the subject on board her vessel. And sailed her way into adulthood.."
which left me thinking, "Well thank goodness! Or she'd still be at sea!" 
8smallones wrote:
| My parents raised us this way. But we had lots of accidents, especially my brothers. Dh had the same experience... Lots of accidents. I just wish there was a bit more balance when Gatto and others give this advice, parents need a warning that the discretion is not there, they are not men, they are young men. |
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THIS is what Gatto is addressing though. That they will have accidents and make mistakes and it is OKAY.
so my question is, what is wrong with accidents?
not being snarky at all. 
I had no childhood whatsoever. I was pretty much left to my devices and imagination and to manage my own responsibilities and ignored.
I freely admit I made a lot of mistakes and there was some hair-raising accidents too.
BUT, I have to also say I agree with Gatto that there was a lot learned there too.
I think if the ignoring factor the hurry up and grow and get out factor had not been such a huge part of my groing up, the left to my own devices and imagination and responsiblities part would have been much better of a thing for me.
That is the balance I'm looking for.
I couldn't care less if my kids ever move out or away. Really. I think that has absolutely nothing to do with growing up.
But how do we foster this concept of Gattos without that becoming a default or a result? I think one can foster independance to the point that it hurts family and I certainly have no interest in doing that!
I also freely admit I don't know if I have the guts to offer my kids the world. For example, the father of the sailing girl? sure he seems a swell guy who really knew his daughter NOW. But if she'd never come back I bet he'd have felt like.. well not a swell guy. 
I might have to read that book of hers to get her perspective...
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Bookswithtea
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Well, I definitely want to read the book. I am so frustrated with modern life these days I could just or at least 
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asplendidtime
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Quote:
8smallones wrote:
My parents raised us this way. But we had lots of accidents, especially my brothers. Dh had the same experience... Lots of accidents. I just wish there was a bit more balance when Gatto and others give this advice, parents need a warning that the discretion is not there, they are not men, they are young men.
THIS is what Gatto is addressing though. That they will have accidents and make mistakes and it is OKAY.
so my question is, what is wrong with accidents?
not being snarky at all.
I had no childhood whatsoever. I was pretty much left to my devices and imagination and to manage my own responsibilities and ignored.
I freely admit I made a lot of mistakes and there was some hair-raising accidents too.
BUT, I have to also say I agree with Gatto that there was a lot learned there too.
I think if the ignoring factor the hurry up and grow and get out factor had not been such a huge part of my groing up, the left to my own devices and imagination and responsiblities part would have been much better of a thing for me.
That is the balance I'm looking for.
I couldn't care less if my kids ever move out or away. Really. I think that has absolutely nothing to do with growing up.
But how do we foster this concept of Gattos without that becoming a default or a result? I think one can foster independance to the point that it hurts family and I certainly have no interest in doing that!
I also freely admit I don't know if I have the guts to offer my kids the world. For example, the father of the sailing girl? sure he seems a swell guy who really knew his daughter NOW. But if she'd never come back I bet he'd have felt like.. well not a swell guy.
I might have to read that book of hers to get her perspective... |
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Accidents=farm tractor accidents
Accidents=vehicles totalled.
I wrote that in addition to my comments before, young youth are actually lacking the development of the part of their brains which is responsible for discretion.
One example, my 16yo brother hauling a huge load of hay with a tractor, the load was in a triangular shaped wagon. Because of his youthful indiscretion, the tractor ended tipping up into the air... If Dad had not been there, he could have been seriously hurt instead of some machinery being wrecked.
The balance I hope to suggest is that they are not left to their own devices "running the ranch" but that they are brought alongside Dad, or Mom (Mom's run ranches too ;o) ) and apprenticed to the job. My dh became a Machinist by apprenticing with adults, these adults were able to teach him discretion, proper safety habits... That took time. When he was 18 he was sucked into a machine at work, if it hadn't been for the old, threadbare uniform shirt he was wearing at the time, he would have been killed. Instead the shirt ripped off from the force, and he ended up with a serious burn to the chest. It was caused by his own youthful indiscretion.
We know a lot of people from several different Old Colony and Conservative Mennonite groups who were raised in a traditional agrarian lifestyle. It is not at all uncommon for them to have lost a child sibling in a farm accident, or for some persons we know who have disabilities due to farm accidents. Mr. Gatto often holds up the Amish as an example of persons raised to be independant, that is why I mention this.
My point being, children left to themselves are left unprotected from their own indiscretions, which can result in their lives being lost. That is the balance I am looking for. The olden days are not always the golden days. KWIM? I do agree though our modern culture is left wanting when it comes to helping esp. young men to become men.
Only seeking balance.
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Maggie
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I think Gatto has many interesting points. However, I do want to offer an alternative point of view. Let me try to hash out what is going through my mind. :)
While I certainly believe that our culture pampers children, teens, young adults (and even adults), I do think there is also a push for "detachment" in our culture, meaning, that children should be "detached" from their parents as soon as possible. Apparently, this is "good" for our children and constitutes "growing up." However, once detached from mom and dad, children, because they are children, latch onto peers or objects for comfort and solace, rather than their parents and families.
While Jesus did run his father's business...he also lived at home at the age of 30.
Would I let me children live at home til 30? No way.
However, I think the Holy Family sets a great example here...teaching responsibility and independence, yet, maintaining a family unity that is very difficult to replicate in today's culture.
The question is...how on earth as parents do we do this today? It is such a fine line...
Hope that makes sense, somehow?
God Bless,
Maggie
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MarilynW
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Just read the first chapter of this book -wow I am enjoying it!! Hopefully will read some more before my one year old wakes up
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Bookswithtea
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Maggie wrote:
I think Gatto has many interesting points. However, I do want to offer an alternative point of view. Let me try to hash out what is going through my mind. :)
While I certainly believe that our culture pampers children, teens, young adults (and even adults), I do think there is also a push for "detachment" in our culture, meaning, that children should be "detached" from their parents as soon as possible. Apparently, this is "good" for our children and constitutes "growing up." However, once detached from mom and dad, children, because they are children, latch onto peers or objects for comfort and solace, rather than their parents and families.
While Jesus did run his father's business...he also lived at home at the age of 30.
Would I let me children live at home til 30? No way.
However, I think the Holy Family sets a great example here...teaching responsibility and independence, yet, maintaining a family unity that is very difficult to replicate in today's culture.
The question is...how on earth as parents do we do this today? It is such a fine line...
Hope that makes sense, somehow?
God Bless,
Maggie
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Have you ever watched the Duggars on tv? Their grown teens/young adults are at home until marriage, but aren't babied (I think they are proponents of early marriage and their kids aren't attending college, but it looks like their boys are headed for self employment) at all. I like that model.
I am not a proponent of detachment, but I think that's different from letting teens do men's/women's work. I think it might be two different things we are talking about???
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Martha
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YES Maggie - that's what I was trying to say.
Books - I think that is the point. That these *should* be 2 different things - but in our culture it tends to be either or. either you baby them or you detach from them - the third option of keeping a close family AND not babying them is a rare thing to see and a hard balance to find. very hard in today's culture.
esp when there are so many parents such as myself who are trying to do this without any personal models (family, church, friends whatever) to follow.
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I am almost finished with the book...and I think the two most important parts are in the letter to his granddaughter in chapter 9.
First of all, his 8 points in "Grandpa John's Real Learning Index" on page 162 should probably be the ultimate basis of any homeschooling program.
Secondly, the quote which seems to be most relevant to this particular thread is on page 171 where we need to "drop the pretense that childhood goes on very long past the age of seven". In other parts of the book he ties this in with the idea that this is the age when a child should start becoming a productive member of society and see themselves as adding something valuable to their family and their community.
Even before I read this book I've been having a little internal debate. Should I interrupt my daughter's imaginative play to do school work or chores? Would I be stifling her creativity? She'll only be young once; should I let her enjoy it as much as possible?
Now I am thinking about Gatto's quote and how my daughter will be seven in November. She is 6 going on 16 in her head. She wants to be grown up in some ways. Maybe I am holding her back and keeping her too much of a child. As an adult, I have to do my work before I get time for play. Perhaps that time has come for her as well.
I don't think I need to let her sail a boat around the world by herself. But maybe I need to let her take more responsibilities around the house. Maybe I need to get her involved in the wider community. Maybe I should just hold her to a higher standard and not dismiss her ideas as much.
Got lots of thoughts from this book swirling through my mind. 
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LeeAnn
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Barbara C. wrote:
| Secondly, the quote which seems to be most relevant to this particular thread is on page 171 where we need to "drop the pretense that childhood goes on very long past the age of seven". |
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Oh goodness, I SO need to get this book! Yes, this really resonates with me. Thanks for the needed push. :)
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I just finished the book yesterday. Lots of things to ponder.
On the detached/babied conversation I feel it is possible and necessary for us to find a way to give over REAL responsibility to our children yet keep them close in our families to keep them grounded in our philosophies and values especially in those preteen/teen years. By real responsibility I mean find real work for them to do. We just moved to the country a couple months ago and I can see definite improvement in attitudes of the boys when they have work to do. They may show a little lack of enthusiasm at first, but once they get to work they are truly peaceful. I hope to find an apprenticeship for my oldest for next summer. I'm planning to help him explore his interests over this year and then to find some trustworthy adult he can work with several hours a week to learn from.
I found it quite interesting how the 7 year and 12 year ages are discussed in this book and follow along with the Montessori age groupings as well as big change years according to Waldorf. I have to agree as I have children who have gone through these ages that there is a definite change.
I also found it interesting how he mentions that cartoons have helped to keep our children from growing up. Over the last few years we've seen cartoons geared towards the teen/adult...Simpsons, Family Guy, etc.. Do you think these were created for this purpose? What are your thoughts on this? Do you find your kids learn better from true life type videos/books or those cartoonish...I think Magic School Bus...or doesn't it matter much?
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CrunchyMom
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Seven is also significant as the age the Church recognizes as the the age of reason.
Also it just occurred to me that the part of childhood I cling to as part of my goals in homeschooling is the innocence. We can keep the innocence and even sense of imaginative play while still allowing them to grow up in responsibility.
In reading Little Britches as a family, Ralph Moody is yet another example of boys taking on man's work at an early age, and yet, all of the adults in the story seemed to be at work protecting his innocence even as he was an active part of their world.
There is also a story of him rounding up stray cattle with a girl his age (I think they are 12), and they name all the cows as they find them. It comes up later as something that surprises and delights the adults--for who names cows like that?
He was still a child with childlike interests and entertainments, but those seemed to go hand in hand with the adult work and responsibility. It wasn't all play all the time, but he made the work play (which, when you think of it, is a valuable skill to cultivate for adulthood).
I'm only on chapter 2 of Gatto's book, and there are some others I'd like to finish up, too, so it is slow going, but wow! thanks for the recommendation!
I think, though, I am off to checkout Grandpa John's education. Don't know if I can wait now that Barbara's peaked my curiosity!
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Barbara C.
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The cartoon thing struck me, too. Cartoons did kind of start out to entertain adults--the Flintstones and Simpsons both started out as clips in adult shows. Were cartoons created to dumb people down or were they created to entertain the masses that were already dumbed down--very chicken and the egg.
I've found that my kids have learned a lot from cartoons: Dora, Arthur, Cyberchase, etc. My oldest does complain from time to time, though, about being too old for cartoons. For those who don't completely eschew television, the 8 to 12 demographic is very hard because most programs are either cartoons for preschoolers or comedies and dramas with more mature themes (dating, kissing, etc). But Gatto has made me more weary of things being dumbed down in cartoon form.
The first thing I thought of when I read that passage was the cartoon "DNA strand" in the Jurassic Park movie that was being used to explain how the dinosaurs were cloned. Of course the dumbing down in cartoon form just reflects the way the creator of Jurassic Park in the book/movie had such a childish outlook and didn't think about the ramifications of what he was doing. I digress, though.
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Just wanted to chime in that I am reading this book too, and it is addressing many things that I have been grappling with myself. I am following this discussion closely.
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CrunchyMom wrote:
| He was still a child with childlike interests and entertainments, but those seemed to go hand in hand with the adult work and responsibility. It wasn't all play all the time, but he made the work play (which, when you think of it, is a valuable skill to cultivate for adulthood). |
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My first thought when reading that was noticing that if you watch children older than 7 play, they do not play like children anymore. The main portions of play still has imagination (such as naming cows) but it is playing at being adults because they very often are forbidden to actually do any adult-ish responsibilities. Not sure that made any sense? All my children play house for example, but if you watch the over 7s, you see a distinct tone of adult mimicing. Same is true when my over 12s join in. The innocence is still there, but they are playing at what they long to participate in, not just what they think is a far away fairy tale game.
It's hard to ignore in even in the best behaved moments of my boys these days and it confuses us at the same moment it makes us happy. They are still so immature, yet we see definite sparks of independent men in their eyes. It's hard to know from one moment to the next whether I am dealing with an older child or a young man! 
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Bookswithtea
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Has anyone ever seen or read this? I came across the title while surfing milehimama's blog today. 
The Case Against Adolescence: Rediscovering the Adult in Every Teen, By Dr. Robert Epstein
http://www.amazon.com/Case-Against-Adolescence-Rediscovering -Adult/dp/188495670X
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Add that to the book list...along with about half the books Gatto references.
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i've been reading this book as well. there's so much to digest, but I definitely find myself nodding ALOT while I'm reading! :-)
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Waiting on FedEx to deliver my copy!
Those of you that have finished it--would it be interesting or appropriate for my 12yo to read?
A memory popped into my head as I was thinking about the idea of adolescence being made artificially juvenile these days. I have a home ec textbook from the 1940s called "Family Clothing" and it has a very detailed plan and discussion of what kind of clothing is worn by each member of the family and how it might be acquired and cared for, etc. The section on teen clothing struck me as odd: it was identical to the women's clothing section but in smaller sizes! There were some sentences about how color and pattern for teen clothing would be more lively but length of dress, styles of everyday wear were the same as the mature woman's.
It reminded me of often-repeated criticisms of medieval and elizabethan parenting--children were treated and dressed as little adults and not seen as children. Always odd to see little kids in paintings wearing corsets and ruffs but I guess it reflected some ideas about what childhood was (infancy and toddlerhood and the years before the age of reason) and not just fashion.
In a very loosely related incident, I took my 9 and 11 yo daughters shoe shopping yesterday. They are both wearing women's size 8! And we are not tall people! My 11yo is fine with this. My 9yo is a little regretful that the Hello Kitty shoes are now far out of her size range. Why do I feel like Mr. Darling in Peter Pan? "Time to grow up, Wendy! You've been far too long in the nursery!"
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MarilynW
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I am so enjoying this book. I could quote off nearly every page things that I say Amen to. I wish I had free hands to type more. What I am pondering is how to reconcile Gatto's ideas of freedom etc with Catholic/Christian obedience, responsibility etc.
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MarilynW wrote:
| What I am pondering is how to reconcile Gatto's ideas of freedom etc with Catholic/Christian obedience, responsibility etc. |
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I haven't read this book, but this struck me and I wanted to ask a question since I think about this often and am trying to figure some things out myself....
Don't we have complete freedom so long as we do not sin?
Thinking and thinking about this!
I look forward to your thoughts!
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Gatto's "Weapons of Mass Instruction"
