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Elizabeth
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Mary G. wrote:
This sounds wonderful and I love it -- especially when they're little. But does it work in American society today with the push for achievement and the right schools, etc? Should it work? Should we fight against the current culture that says you must go to an accredited college, get a strong degree (if not a grad degree also) and get a great paying job?
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Mary,
I struggle with this question all the time. I look at Real Learning and the ideals in there and I think, "what would the high school version look like?" Would it include cramming for the SAT, begging a child to consent to a grammar course, and comparing credentials of colleges that don't seem to reflect our philosophy from the beginning?
I remember being a teenager and looking at colleges. And I remember the expectation that I go to the highest ranked public university possible and do well there. That was the measure of success. I met those expectations but something didn't ring true with me from the very beginning of the process. By the time I graduated and was propelled into teaching in one of the "finest public school districts" in the country, I could see that my definition of fine was at odds with the culture's definition. We bucked the system and we homeschooled.
And I really thought I had it bucked--until this college searching has come around. I find myself working really hard to dispel the ingrained notion of success and look at the late teen/early twenty years through a Real Learning lens. I'm much more at peace when I do. But it's much more challenging than it was when they were all little.
I know how I got this way. And I got confirmation of that this morning. My father is a Naval Academy graduate. He taught at the Naval Academy, too. He is a very succesful financial planner, post-Navy. He lives in Charlottesville, in the shadow of the University of Virginia (that school that was always held out to me as the ultimate goal). He chose to live there so he could, "breather the air of that fine acadmeic institution every day." Education at a fine institution is that important to him. The man is doing to my kids what he did to me: propagating UVa at every turn. But they are not so easily swayed by the institutional rhetoric.(Partly because MIchael is more impressed with UVa's storied soccer reputation than its Jeffersonian legacy  --but that's another thread altogether). Anyway, I called my dad this morning. He probably had a heart attack yesterday and he's in the hospital at UVa, awaiting an angiogram and the decision for an angioplasty or a bypass. As I was hanging up, he said, "Hey, I finally got into UVa." Weak joke. Very telling...
I don't know the answers to your question Mary. I do know that my son struggles with the question for himself. He's not grappling with it the way I did; because it wasn't crammed down his throat at home. He's grappling with it because he's old enough to measure the culture at large and hear that message for himself. But he has other voices he's hearing too. I'd like to think that he'll make wiser choices because of the foundation laid when he was little. I'd like to think that there is a way to weave the best of both worlds, both educational and lifestyle philosophies...
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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tovlo4801
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Elizabeth,
What a thought provoking post. It's interesting to play with how much the people who are important to us influence our perspective. As I move more deeply into unschooling I want so much to step back and allow my children's voices to have strength and not drown them out with my own. Your post reminded me that by simply having a strong passion of our own, our voice will influence our children. It sounds like your dad actively used his voice to try and influence you guys, but even if he had stood back it sounds like his passion was so strong it would have influenced you anyway. It sounds like your passion for Real Learning has influenced your son beautifully along with your dad's passions for a fine education and they both mingled in with your son's own passions to create a unique perspective that guides him down his unique path. The way those influences have shaped each of you is an interesting thing to contemplate, I think. I wonder what influences formed my perspective and what passions of mine are influencing my children. I hope they are worthy...
Thank you for sharing this experience and wisdom. Your dad is in my prayers, Elizabeth.
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Willa
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I look at Real Learning and the ideals in there and I think, "what would the high school version look like?" Would it include cramming for the SAT, begging a child to consent to a grammar course, and comparing credentials of colleges that don't seem to reflect our philosophy from the beginning? |
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What an interesting question, Elizabeth. Do you think there's a book there someday?
I do think it relates a bit to what I was pondering about "liberal arts vs useful training". Your book is one of the finest examples of implementing a liberal arts education in the home that I've read. That it also deals with the large Catholic family just integrates it even more into what education is really about, IMO. In fact, I think I'm going to read it again during this holiday break.
I have to say that bit about your father wanting to breathe in a fine academic atmosphere really impressed me. It's a high, pure ideal in its way -- not mercenary or status-oriented. Maybe that aspect of his goals affected you a bit in a good way.
My dad is an Ivy League type himself. He had high expectations for himself, and met them, but his idea of "high" was not so much advancing in the world or making a good living. He cared less about that than just of maximizing his talents to be of service to the community. He has lived a good life and made a name for himself as a by-product of his choices to do what he thought right.
I think I learned from him that the "road less travelled" often turns out to be the most worthwhile road. Though I've certainly taken a different track than he did, which he has definitely not always been in accord with.
He's having health problems too -- a recurrence of his cancer requiring more toxic chemo -- and so I will add prayers for your dad to my prayers for him. He had a heart attack requiring a triple bypass over 20 years ago now, and has never had any real complications from heart disease since.
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Willa
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Elizabeth
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WJFR wrote:
Elizabeth wrote:
| I look at Real Learning and the ideals in there and I think, "what would the high school version look like?" Would it include cramming for the SAT, begging a child to consent to a grammar course, and comparing credentials of colleges that don't seem to reflect our philosophy from the beginning? |
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What an interesting question, Elizabeth. Do you think there's a book there someday? |
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No. At least, not anytime soon enough to be of use to the people here. Too many questions. Not enough answers and very little time  .
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Leonie
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Elizabeth and Willa,
I will keep your fathers in my prayers,
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Mary G
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Elizabeth -- hey my brother and sil both went to USNA (80 and 85, respectively) and they've homeschooled their kids for ever -- have one in college now (Univ Norther Colorado) and my godson is applying to TAC. They have 8 more in the wings, so they have to really look at not only good schools, but scholarship possibilities and good job potential after college.....
I was taling to dh about this today (the blessings of a school teacher is he's off ALL Christmas!) and lamenting the need to be of the world while trying to be above spiritually -- you still have to live and make a living.
I was directed to a Jesuit college that could give me scholarships -- that was Mom and Dad's only directive. I found Gonzaga and loved my time there. Would I send my own there now -- I don't think so; they've come pretty far from when I was there (I wasn't such a great Catholic then  ), but it's still antithetical to many of the things I would want my children to be involved with. So the alternative is what -- small Catholic schools ? Joe wants to get into Sprots Broadcast/Management and thus needs big school recognition. Good Newmann or Campus Ministry centers at public schools? I don't know.....
I guess we have to leave it in the Big Guy's hands that the right thing will open for them at the right time....
Blessings and prayers to one and all!
(Thanks Willa for the article link -- it's a great one that's getting saved on the PC!)
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juliecinci
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I'd like to think that he'll make wiser choices because of the foundation laid when he was little. I'd like to think that there is a way to weave the best of both worlds, both educational and lifestyle philosophies... |
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He already is. 
One of the best things about Noah not going to college this year is that it has forced me to face what I believed my philosophy of education really was. Did I think it was a degree? Did I think it was outside validation for the work I had done with my son?
The strangest idea occurred to my husband and me last night. We realized that with this son, he had believed more deeply than any of the kids so far that education was about passion for learning and that it was up to him to make it happen.
In fact, for him, learning is tainted when it is contained, controlled or dispensed in schoolish formats.
The day we went to our last Greek class together he said something very odd. He told me: "It's funny, but this morning, I woke up and realized that today is the last day of Greek. I was so releived because I thought - now that the Greek class is over, I can really learn Greek."
We both cracked up! This is so him. He does best when it is up to him to pursue his course of study, not organized by others.
Now I don't know what he'll do for a living, but last night for the first time, Jon (dh) and I considered that he might be happier in a job that is social (like working at Trader Joe's or Costco or Starbucks) - a good company with lots of interaction with people that is not a pressured situation to perform tasks like computer programming or design or writing (areas we used to think he'd go into).
Then in his time off of that kind of job, he'd be totally free to keep pursuing his own learning, his own interests and be that "glorious generalist" that Grace Llewellyn talks about. Why not? For him, education is not about a job anyway. It's never been. It's been about becoming... becoming a rich, interesting and interesed person... someone who is deeply engaged in his own life.
Now I have two kids in line next who don't see it that way at all. They love to learn but they are much more oriented toward a degree because they imagine their futures including jobs that will benefit from degrees. It has not been a struggle to help them take the right courses or get the right support to make that happen. It's who they are.
But if one of them decides to slow down (I have one who wants to study in New Zealand for a semester) or changes his mind about college, I am not afraid now. I know that the foundation really is there - that learning is the core of what we've done at home and degrees are only one expression of how that learning is described.
So I know your son has scholarship possibilities and that you are trying to sort out how to make all that happen for him. I just think that you are guaranteed that your son is different than you were because you did lay a different foundation. Perhaps some surprises are in store for you both, that don't require cramming for SATs or grammar every day.
Julie
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Elizabeth
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juliecinci wrote:
Now I don't know what he'll do for a living, but last night for the first time, Jon (dh) and I considered that he might be happier in a job that is social (like working at Trader Joe's or Costco or Starbucks) - a good company with lots of interaction with people that is not a pressured situation to perform tasks like computer programming or design or writing (areas we used to think he'd go into).
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Okay, playing devil's advocate here. What happens if Noah gets a job at Starbucks and falls head over heels in love? He wants to get married and start a family, and SOON (all not out of the question at his age) Can he support a family as a barista? If you were the parents of the girl he loves, would you hand her over to the guy at Starbucks? . I think this is where Mary's "reality check" comes in. I've got nothing against most baristas--some of them have really been there when I've needed a friend -- but I'm not sure it's a good longterm plan...
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Cindy
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Just to add:
My boys take tennis from a coach who loves what he does, though he makes little money.
One day when he showed up in his 'new' old car becaue the other died, another tennis mom and I were musing which is more stressful:
Having a low pay tennis job you love, but stress over keeping your old car running and making ends meet..
Or having a high pay job but stressing over the long commutes, sales quotas, difficult atmsophere, threats of layoff and wishing you were outside.
Know there are in-betweens... but it gave us pause to think.
I also have a friend whose dh refuses to take the corporate route and is a handiman. He loves it, reaches out with his faith and though they have little money are very happy with their choice. Her life motto is "People before things" and has challenged me often to re-think.
Cindy
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ladybugs
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When I entered college, I was going in, vainly, as a Radio/TV major. I was going to be one of those news anchors....
Well, God spared me...I went to Medjugorje and felt that I was being called to be a teacher, but I felt that I was more called to "teach" right from wrong than I was to teach academics...
I came home, changed my major and it got a liberal arts degree. When it came time to pursue the credential program....blah....it was the most contrived, PC, brainwashing program and I was not going to be part of it. I got a job teaching at a private, secular school. Loved the kids, hated the politics. I would wear my coat, with my rosary in my pocket, out onto the field for playground duty. Kids dig into pockets, you know....and they would ask what my rosary was. I would tell them...after all, it wasn't prostelytizing....
But point being...I wasn't making a whole heap of $$ as a teacher in a private school....but I was doing what I felt called to do....
Should not that be the measure?
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Courtney
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Cindy, I must respond to what you wrote. I used to wonder which was more stressful as well. My dh was in the corporate world with a large well-known company for 15 years. By the end of his time there, he was coming home totally beaten down. I had never seen him so down and disillusioned before. He ended up resigning from this job and taking a job with a small privately held company. He was hired by the owner who had been one of his clients at his previous job. We discussed the job change at length b/c the pay was less and the benefits were less. Almost 2 years later, I'm still convinced we made the best decision. No amount of money can make up for the stress that he was under, IMHO. Yes, it would be nice if the salary and benefits had been the same, but we've both learned how valuable it is to really enjoy what you do and work for people who are family oriented. Gotta run.
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Cindy
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More musing...
What if we talk to our kids, show them options, meet people that have gone on both courses (my boys have seen many varied examples to date-- including:
-their tennis coach
-my dh's best friend who is an anthestiolgist, very weathly *and* loves his work
- their 25 yo cousin who is still unhappy and searching- bouncing jobs)---
-dh himself and me talking about my previous work....
What if we focus on talk, being open, discussing. Can we then trust them to choose their way and we offer support and guidance?
I grew up in a generation where this was not discussed- ever. So, went the route I thought I was supposed to- college, etc. But it took me a long time to 'find' who I was.
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tovlo4801
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Oh gosh! So many good thoughts here. I'm so glad you wrote what you did Julie. This is where my head is at right now. I think MY mindset is like your son's. What's funny is I'll probably get slapped with a son who is corporate ladder climbing bound. lol Actually that doesn't look too likely at the moment. It gives me peace to see an example of someone at peace with a child taking a path that is good for them, but different from the world's view of success.
I'm afraid I might be terribly naive, but I'm probably the kind of person who'd want to marry the barista. I think there are all kinds of us in the world. I think there are all kinds of parents who are open to letting their children choose who they want to marry and wouldn't allow their earning potential to dominate the situation. God will provide what is needed right? If we're following the path that He has laid out for us, we needn't fear.
edit: I have to say that I'm not saying this out of a completely naive place. I'm not sitting in a half-million dollar home surrounded by beautiful furnishings with nice cars in the garage and a husband on the way home from a six digit salary job. We are by no means in poverty, but we are also by no means well-off. We've made choices in our life that have left us without the conveniences many enjoy. Sure, we have financial envy sometimes, but generally we're happy we made the choices we have. My parents are actually near poverty and also do fine. Not having a lot of money is not the worst thing in the world, and I have a picture of this from actual experience. Oh, I sound bitter and juding. I don't know how to write this without sounding that way. That's not how I want to sound. I just don't want to be accused of coming from a completely naive perspective. I know a little of what I speak, is all I'm trying to say.
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Elizabeth
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Of Starbucks, Fortune Magazine says: "The coffee behemoth is justly famous for its generous benefits. One example: Part-timers and their same-or opposite-sex partners receive comprehensive health coverage. Hypnotherapy? Covered. Naturopathy? Ditto." The magazine says AVERAGE ANNUAL PAY for salaried employees is $44,790; for hourly employees, it's $35,294. Starbucks ranks #11 on the best-places list when small and medium companies are included in the list.
I couldn't find whether children were covered or what kind of maternity plan they had .
Apparently, Starbucks employees make more than teachers in some towns . And there is a corporate ladder there to climb. So, does that somehow make it a better career choice or a worse one?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Willa
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Mary G. wrote:
(Thanks Willa for the article link -- it's a great one that's getting saved on the PC!)
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Thanks Mary!
Before I saw your post, I had qualms about having posted it to the unschooling forum since it wasn't exactly an unschooling article, so I deleted it from this thread. I just reposted it over here
in the Teenage forum.
But I do think it's worthwhile reading and plan to have my teens read at least the part about the importance of higher education and how to prepare for qualification -- "Fair Information" for them?
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Willa
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tovlo4801
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Elizabeth wrote:
| Apparently, Starbucks employees make more than teachers in some towns . And there is a corporate ladder there to climb. So, does that somehow make it a better career choice or a worse one? |
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Does it have to be universally better or worse? Maybe it's better for one person and worse for another?
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Willa
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tovlo4801 wrote:
| Does it have to be universally better or worse? Maybe it's better for one person and worse for another? |
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That's what I think. My 17yo son would hate working in Starbucks but he would hate being a teacher too.
I have been reading books about choosing your career, because of my son being a junior in hs now. One book mentioned that some people choose a job that allows them to bring in enough to live on, but their REAL passion is outside the job, as Julie mentioned. Since my son loves to write, he is considering a job that's just a job, so he can support his writing that way.
Other people want a job that is more of a vocation, that maximizes their talents and interests. My dh is in this category, as a computer game programmer. He loves what he does. He is very professional about it but it's not just a job, to him. It's a way of living!
I think most unschoolers ponder their own future and that of their kids very seriously. Probably most of them decide that a great-paying job and the right schools are not top on their priority list. Unschooling has taught them that. Life satisfaction and finding their personal niche is more important. In other words, they start off with what many CEOs only learn after a heart attack, if at all.
Chesterton says education is to fit us for family life. If you think about it, it is true. We want our kids to be good mothers and fathers, and the education is to equip them for that. If they have a religious vocation, they need to learn to be good spiritual fathers, brothers and sisters. That's what life is about, really.... family. Our friends in heaven are our family, too. Life is a family thing.
I suppose that as a mom thinking of my kids' future, I want mostly that they have "Fair Information" about what life is like out there, and the tools to be personally successful, which at bottom means able to continually improve and progress till the last day. I don't want them to be too fragile, or too helpless, or too brittle and rigid. I want them to be equipped to live a good family life, and of course, for a ds, part of that is some ability to provide.
Honestly, to me unschooling seems to have many advantages in preparing children for our society's very dynamic, flexible, open-ended economy. Risk-taking and creativity are often economically rewarded in our society, and there's a lot of latitude to switch tracks and/or start over, if necessary. My two brothers and my dh's siblings all have switched tracks at least once. All are contributing, responsible members of society and good family people, engaged with life, and some of them are prosperous, as well.
On the flip side -- standard academic educations are not always a guarantee of future job security or financial success. I have a friend who got a psychology doctorate at a good school. A big problem in her school was the "perpetual dissertation". The students would delay for years finishing their postgraduate work because they knew the real world had no place for them commensurate with their level of education, and frankly, because it was more comfortable staying a student and postponing maturity!
I worry about my kids, but I'm wondering these days if unschooling is not a slightly more flexible and viable academic model than the other alternatives. In the "real world", relationship skills, a variety of experience, character strength, and an ability to learn new things and visualize creatively are at a premium. Unschooling seems to have a dynamic element in it that is needed out there more than an ability to plod through routine work or even to excel in academia. Oddly enough, I have been on a rabbit trail of "productivity books" and many of them tout these very kinds of skills-- creativity, adaptability, interpersonal skills --as the ones most valuable in the workplace.
I am afraid I sound a bit naive, too. But it's worked for my dh and I to take risks and stand a bit back from the lure of security and stability. Not that those things aren't good in their way, but I really don't think they are the primary things. Having a larger family, homeschooling, freelancing without medical benefits, have all been rather risky decisions in some way but they have had some significant benefits for us, and they are certainly the things I feel were quite pivotal in our family's identity.
Perhaps people get the most satisfaction from taking control of their own lives in some ways, rather than being rushed along on a track, and I could see unschooling being very conducive in letting kids "practice" taking control.
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Willa
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Elizabeth
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WJFR wrote:
I am afraid I sound a bit naive, too. But it's worked for my dh and I to take risks and stand a bit back from the lure of security and stability. Not that those things aren't good in their way, but I really don't think they are the primary things. Having a larger family, homeschooling, freelancing without medical benefits, have all been rather risky decisions in some way but they have had some significant benefits for us, and they are certainly the things I feel were quite pivotal in our family's identity.
Perhaps people get the most satisfaction from taking control of their own lives in some ways, rather than being rushed along on a track, and I could see unschooling being very conducive in letting kids "practice" taking control. |
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It's interesting; we have the same situation wrt freelancing and benefits and risks. And they are definitely a part of our identity. But I don't see them as allowing us more control. I see them as allowing us less control...
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Cay Gibson
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Elizabeth wrote:
Apparently, Starbucks employees make more than teachers in some towns . And there is a corporate ladder there to climb. So, does that somehow make it a better career choice or a worse one? |
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When Starbucks first moved into our small area, my oldest dd actually had dreams of owning her own coffee/ bakery shop.
I said You Go, Girl.
She has since gone on to visions of the medical field or real estate.
I have much to babble on this subject because we are knee-deep in it with many changes and going-ons between dh and ds as well as a recent discussion (on this very subject) with my cousin who just moved into the elite Woodlands in Texas; but Narnia calls.
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Cindy
Forum Pro
Joined: Feb 01 2005
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Dec 30 2005 at 3:33pm | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
It's interesting; we have the same situation wrt freelancing and benefits and risks. And they are definitely a part of our identity. But I don't see them as allowing us more control. I see them as allowing us less control... |
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I think this gets back to what we are trying to control... for example my post above on being a poor tennis coach or a better off corporate man....
Money is more secure and you can control those factors that money solves better, but other things you lose control of, especially your lack of free time and how meaningful you find your work hours.
I think it would be great just to have this disucssion with our teens. So they know there is more than one path.
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Cindy in Texas
It Is About The Journey
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: What is unschooling?
