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Bookswithtea
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OK, showing my ignorance here. I first learned about Waldorf through the old old Natural Baby Catalogue before they were bought out (sigh...I still miss that catalogue and still have the wooden baby rattles I ordered for my first!). But there wasn't a whole lot of info. in the catalogue and frankly, I have not heard anyone even talk about Waldorf since then. Until now.
I've been to the Oak Meadow site, but I can't figure out from the web site what makes this curriculum better than any other boxed curriculum. Maybe there are details in the manuals I can't see?
So...can someone fill me in, please? Maybe provide some links on philosophy, or what a Waldorf day looks like, or something like that?
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Elizabeth
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Here's a good overview from a school perspective and here is a very good Waldorf at home introduction. And then there is much more from Donna Simmons here.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Mary G
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Books -- I love all the crafty side of Waldorf -- their art and crafts are an integral part of the curriculum (with the understanding that, for instance, penmanship is helped by constant teaching of knitting  ). The one thing you might want to read carefully is some of the new-agey stuff; Rudolph Steiner was a bit of a over the top for me. But I do know some very good Catholics who do Waldorf in their homes with a Catholic flair, so it is do-able!
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acystay
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I do too like many things about Waldorf. I did a great deal of the concepts last year with DD, DS1. We made our own felt (so cool to do and not that hard), dyed silks, nature walks, songs etc.
This year, however, I am going a more mix of Waldorf and Montessori for 2 reasons mainly. 1 being that Waldorf doesn't do academics until aged 7. Not that that is bad, but my daughter craved it. I could no longer say later. She would ask how to write things, count things, etc. 2...I just cannot get into the fairies. I don't believe in them, and Waldorf is really into that aspect.
What I took from journey into Waldorf is this...nature, quality art materials, and experimentation with art. For example we threw out our first attempts at watercolors b/c well, we were figuring it out. This year, I bought my children real artist material. I do still want some beeswax crayons.
Mary was saying you can still do Waldorf as a Catholic. Yes you can! Waldorf has many changes through the year centered around seasons. You can certaintly do that in your own home. I have a nature table (which needs some updating!). The back drop is silks of that season. On the table I still have our wool felting. For easter season, I had fairy dolls (made from pipe cleaners and silk flowers and dmc floss), models of the cycle of a butterfly and our butterfly house (when we had butterflies), a cross, and our palm leaves from Palm Sunday. I also have magnafying glasses on there and some Mass cards too. For Christmas It is really easy. I love doing the nature table b/c I live in socal and well, we don't get all the seasons per say. The nature table gives me a way to remember the seasons of my childhood in the midwest and expose my children to them as well.
Waldorf too is a lot of prep on your part as a mom. I found that I had to have things ready every day and just couldn't keep it together. I burned out on it, but I still do the art and nature walks as much as we can.
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JennGM
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acystay wrote:
| Waldorf too is a lot of prep on your part as a mom. I found that I had to have things ready every day and just couldn't keep it together. I burned out on it, but I still do the art and nature walks as much as we can. |
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Thanks for your perspective. I was finding that Montessori is very intense on parent preparation, too. What aspects of preparation are you referring to?
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LisaR
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The Waldorf School near where we used to live had a "Christmas Festival/Craft Sale" every year around the Feast of St Nicholas. I have heard that it is a very common occurance to have a fair/open house type event around Dec, and it might be worth visiting if you have a nearby school. A chance to purchase some excellent materials at amazing prices, plus I was very very impressed with all of the classrooms, the materials, the way the teachers spoke so softly to the children and were really present to them. I recall Old Testament coywork on the boards, and St George, St Michael, and St Francis art work on the walls along with Noahs Ark.
However, the theology is off. It is good to be cautious.
We had a few Opus Dei friends who would send their children there until 2nd grade, they loved the no TV contract and other externals.
Montessori and Wladorf Classrooms look so lovely!
I have a very difficult time translating that into our home life.... but a seasonal Nature/Liturgical table is a very nice start and has worked well for us.
My 5 y/o honestly thinks that "Gnome Guys" and fairies live in our back yard. He would thrive I am sure in a Waldorf environment!
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acystay
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You know Jenny, Montessori is labor intensive right now for me just to get all the stuff ready, but I see it evolving into the materials are there, ready for use do as you please children. With Waldorf it was the art and the crafting of materials (puppets, scuplting mediums, finding materials) that just became too much for me. I guess now that I have a lot of it it isn't too bad and I value that I have that stuff. Also, for me, I had to actually do the processes of art w/o my a children a few times so they could see it complete. If it was something already pictured, then I worked through it with them.
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Bookswithtea
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OK, so I've read the links. Waldorf is gentle, includes lots of tree climbing and hands on experiences (love the study of farming in the 3rd grade!), and has a rhythm similar to the Moore's better late than early ideas (huge fan of the Moore's as well). It also incorporates the manipulatives focus of Montessori, real tools, etc. There's a big focus on the seasons (which dovetails nicely with the liturgical year).
In contrast to CM, lessons are not short with children moving quickly from one subject to another, and narrations are done after contemplation rather than right away.
Are Good Books similar to lapbooks or notebooking?
I also noticed on one of the links Elizabeth posted something about stories being told rather than read. I guess that has to do with reading with feeling and character voices and such?
I can't imagine even one of my children being willing to work with only one color at a time until the next one is introduced! lol
I agree that electronics and children do not belong together. There's an interesting book on this very subject called High Tech Heretic .
That said...what is it about Waldorf that is so different from Montessori, CM, relaxed hsing, unit studies etc? I see a lot of the same principles and ideas.
How is this changing your homeschool? And what is it about Oak Meadow that is helpful in a homeschool environment?
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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[QUOTE=
That said...what is it about Waldorf that is so different from Montessori, CM, relaxed hsing, unit studies etc? I see a lot of the same principles and ideas.
One major difference I know of is that Waldorf is very much into the imaginative, the Fairy tales, the folk tales. Montessori I believe discourages this in favor of real life experiences.
Look in the book sections of a Waldorf catalog and then a Montessori one.
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Elizabeth
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Bookswithtea wrote:
OK, so I've read the links. Waldorf is gentle, includes lots of tree climbing and hands on experiences (love the study of farming in the 3rd grade!), and has a rhythm similar to the Moore's better late than early ideas (huge fan of the Moore's as well). It also incorporates the manipulatives focus of Montessori, real tools, etc. There's a big focus on the seasons (which dovetails nicely with the liturgical year).
In contrast to CM, lessons are not short with children moving quickly from one subject to another, and narrations are done after contemplation rather than right away.
Are Good Books similar to lapbooks or notebooking? |
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Yes, they are. They're done in Waldorf-art style, but it's pretty much the same concept.
Bookswithtea wrote:
| I also noticed on one of the links Elizabeth posted something about stories being told rather than read. I guess that has to do with reading with feeling and character voices and such? |
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And it has to do with relationship. In Waldorf schools, the teacher is the imparter of knowledge. Personally, I think a good book can do it far better than I can most times. I'm more a read-aloud type.
Bookswithtea wrote:
| I can't imagine even one of my children being willing to work with only one color at a time until the next one is introduced! lol |
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It's a fun experiment for a session or two.
Bookswithtea wrote:
| I agree that electronics and children do not belong together. There's an interesting book on this very subject called High Tech Heretic . |
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This is huge in Waldorf.
Bookswithtea wrote:
| That said...what is it about Waldorf that is so different from Montessori, CM, relaxed hsing, unit studies etc? I see a lot of the same principles and ideas. |
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I think there is a lot of overlap. Waldorf purists believe that certain subjects are introduced at certain times in a child's development. That makes it impossible to do a whole-family unit study, much like strictly following TWTM timetable. You'd have everybody doing something different. The reasons for when the subjects are introduced have to do with the anthroposophical observances of children's stages.
It's very different from Montessori. Montessori materials are intended for one purpose and imaginative use is discouraged. and Montessori classrooms are set up for a child to choose his own work and work independently. Waldorf classrooms stress community (more practical in a home environment, imo) and they are all about imagination. There's also a different perspective on babies from the very beginning. Here's a contrast that came up in a recent conversation:
From "The Child in the Family" by Maria Montessori
We must come to a full understanding of the state of being of the newborn child. Only then will the absolute necessity of rendering easy his initiation into life become evident. The newborn child must become the object of knowledgeable care. Even holding him requires the utmost gentleness, and he should not be moved except with great tenderness. We must understand that in the first moment, and even in the first month, the child should be kept very quiet. The infant ought to be left naked, warmed only by the air in the room itself, not clothes or wrapped in blankets, for he has little body heat with which to resist temperature change and clothing is of little help.
From Beyond the Rainbow Bridge:
"Steiner taught that warmth supports life and is, therefore, a foundation of all health and development. We sense warmth even before birth, through the warmth of our mother's womb. As adults, we can generate our own warmth, but infants cannot do this very well. Babies must rely on their parents to provided body contact, proper clothing and blankets to keep them warm. In many traditional cultures, mothers still swaddle their infants and keep their babies close their bodies, especially the first year...Toddlers playing on the cold floor need the good insulation of natural fiber rugs so that their legs don't lose warmth. In Europe, there is a folk saying that all the months with and "R" are months for babies to wear tights or long stockings made of wool or wool and silk. ..."
All that said, we can take from Waldorf the way we take from other philosophies. We can all do a unit on farming together and use Waldorf arts and building ideas when we do it. I'd throw some living books in there, too
bookswithtea wrote:
| How is this changing your homeschool? And what is it about Oak Meadow that is helpful in a homeschool environment? |
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You always ask such insightful questions! I don't know that Oak Meadow is as much responsible for the changes in our home as Christopherus is. I'm slowing down. I'm investing heavily in establishing rhythms.I'm more aware of the visual aspect of everything. I'm also holding more and I'm more engaged with my children.Waldorf really encourages relationship.
I'm much, much more aware of art and handwork and making them integral to pretty much every lesson.I'm forcing myself not to skip the wonder of the little years. So often, in big families, we buy into the "trickle down" philosophy. But you know what? You can only be five once. And I want to make sure that the things that will seem "babyish" later (fairy tales and finger plays and such) happen for each child. They shouldn't miss it just because the rest of the family is studying something more advanced. Does that make sense?
I'm also enjoying reading the thoughts of homeschoolers I've never heard before. Sometimes, we need a breath of fresh air, even if we only end up taking one or two ideas as our own.
Oak Meadow is good fit for Christian (high school) because it outlines things well for him and he is able to work independently. I gleaned a lot of ideas for the younger years, but I'm using very little as written. I'm just too much of a renegade to use any boxed curriculum and--you're right--it can be just like all the rest in some ways.
Keep thinking, Books. And keep asking! It's interesting to hear what different people are taking from different philosophies.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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J.Anne
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What initially attracted me to Waldorf was the emphasis on rhthym and rountine. I love how in tune it is with the seasons. I think we tend to live so disconnected from a natural rhtyhm with cherries in January and shopping for Christmas in August, you know?
And the daily progression of activities really spoke to the part of me that loved Baby Wise as a new mom. My kids thrive on that type of daily rountine.
I won't pretend that we do a lot of Waldorf stuff here, but there are elements I am including this year. Everything Elizabeth said above was perfect.
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JennGM
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J.Anne wrote:
What initially attracted me to Waldorf was the emphasis on rhthym and rountine. I love how in tune it is with the seasons. I think we tend to live so disconnected from a natural rhtyhm with cherries in January and shopping for Christmas in August, you know?
And the daily progression of activities really spoke to the part of me that loved Baby Wise as a new mom. My kids thrive on that type of daily rountine. |
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Jennifer, in doing some reading on Waldorf, that is what really attracts me, also. And it's easy for a Catholic mother to incorporate the rhythms and routines because the Church has been doing this for centuries. Christ sanctified Time, and so all of that is there for us. The Church has the Liturgical Year, which reflects the seasons. The Benedictine and other religious rules were written to imitate family life, and there are dedicated times of the day for prayer and work (Ora et Labora).
And the arts and crafts brings to mind Psalm 90:17 "O prosper the work of our hands".
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Celeste
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Elizabeth wrote:
| It's very different from Montessori. Montessori materials are intended for one purpose and imaginative use is discouraged. and Montessori classrooms are set up for a child to choose his own work and work independently. |
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Just a slight semantic clarification on this point: If by "imaginative use" you mean taking a tiny pink cube and pretending it's a baby (fantasy), yes, that's discouraged. But Montessori greatly encouraged imagination. By imagination she meant creativity, ideas, seeing possibilities, building new things from the wealth of the ages passed on to us.
By no means did Montessori mean for her materials to be used only for one thing. Multiple extensions are built into the materials; some will be presented, but often the child will discover them himself or create new ones. That sort of imagination is expected and celebrated, and usually doesn't need to be encouraged.
In Montessori imagination does not mean fantasy, it means building on reality. Fantasy does not equal fiction in Montessori; I think sometimes that gets confusing. Plus, once the child has moved beyond the Children's House and has a secure grounding in what's real, the restrictions on fantasy are "lifted," so to speak.
I know this can be a contentious topic, but I think the contention may arise, again, from semantics. It doesn't mean you can't read fiction to your children! Montessori opposed encouraging the child to live in a dream world rather than developing a sense of wonder at the real world around him. A 100% Disney World existence, if you will.
Celeste
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JennGM wrote:
Jennifer, in doing some reading on Waldorf, that is what really attracts me, also. And it's easy for a Catholic mother to incorporate the rhythms and routines because the Church has been doing this for centuries. Christ sanctified Time, and so all of that is there for us. The Church has the Liturgical Year, which reflects the seasons. The Benedictine and other religious rules were written to imitate family life, and there are dedicated times of the day for prayer and work (Ora et Labora).
And the arts and crafts brings to mind Psalm 90:17 "O prosper the work of our hands". |
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Jenn - Exactly. I forgot to mention this part of it, but I'm almost glad I didn't because you said it much better than I would have! 
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Bookswithtea
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Elizabeth wrote:
| Yes, they are. They're done in Waldorf-art style, but it's pretty much the same concept. |
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Where can I see what is the Waldorf art style? Is it that German gnomey fantasy look like the Magic Cabin catalogue.
Elizabeth wrote:
| In Waldorf schools, the teacher is the imparter of knowledge. Personally, I think a good book can do it far better than I can most times. I'm more a read-aloud type. |
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So in a Waldorf school, the teacher might use the pictures but not necessarily even read the text as written, but tell it in an oral format?
Elizabeth wrote:
| Waldorf purists believe that certain subjects are introduced at certain times in a child's development. That makes it impossible to do a whole-family unit study, much like strictly following TWTM timetable. You'd have everybody doing something different. The reasons for when the subjects are introduced have to do with the anthroposophical observances of children's stages. |
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Is there any other program that does it their way or research that backs up their ideas about when to introduce stuff? One thing that drew me to the Moore's and Carole Joy Seid was the solid research behind it all. I remembered a lot of the studies they quoted from my college days.
On the other hand, if they are basically covering what everyone else covers, just in a different order, than that's not really a big deal. Homeschoolers do that all the time. But I don't know how that would work in a big family. I guess that would be one thing to not be a purist about.
Elizabeth wrote:
| It's very different from Montessori. Montessori materials are intended for one purpose and imaginative use is discouraged. and Montessori classrooms are set up for a child to choose his own work and work independently. Waldorf classrooms stress community (more practical in a home environment, imo) and they are all about imagination. . |
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OK, so one stresses general creativity and imagination, and the other is all about Trolls, Fairies, Folk tales and the like. I do see that as a major difference.
I like the idea of community rather than independent work.
Elizabeth wrote:
| I'm slowing down. I'm investing heavily in establishing rhythms.I'm more aware of the visual aspect of everything. I'm also holding more and I'm more engaged with my children. Waldorf really encourages relationship. I'm much, much more aware of art and handwork and making them integral to pretty much every lesson.I'm forcing myself not to skip the wonder of the little years. So often, in big families, we buy into the "trickle down" philosophy. But you know what? You can only be five once. And I want to make sure that the things that will seem "babyish" later (fairy tales and finger plays and such) happen for each child. They shouldn't miss it just because the rest of the family is studying something more advanced. Does that make sense?. |
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This makes complete sense to me. It sounds like it works well with an attachment parenting philosophy, which we have always considered critical.
So here is the practical question though...all that handwork takes time. So does more relationship building and finger play and all of that stuff. What is being dropped in order to make room for all of this?
And can a person who is completely NOT visual and art oriented even hope to do this well?
Elizabeth wrote:
| I'm also enjoying reading the thoughts of homeschoolers I've never heard before. Sometimes, we need a breath of fresh air, even if we only end up taking one or two ideas as our own . |
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This is why I have always read unschooling books, even though we have never unschooled. It does feel good to read about different perspectives. For some reason, I find this more appealing and interesting to read about than Montessori. Something about developing the atrium environment and the mats and all that feels like it would never work in my home. My kids are all about, "...but what else can I do with it?"
So what ages are you working with in all of this and how are you doing it? What about the kids who are too old for fingerplay? Besides Christian, are they doing something else or just skipping that part and moving on to the activities that span a wide age range?
And if I could only read one book on this, from a homeschool perspective, what would it be? I'm very interested in incorporating more wonder into our home. My oldest was born practical and has no patience for this sort of thing, but my girls...they would love it.
Elizabeth wrote:
| Oak Meadow is good fit for Christian (high school) because it outlines things well for him and he is able to work independently. |
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OK, that makes sense to me. Every time I look at a program that is age graded and try to imagine using it in our home I start to break out in hives. It overwhelms me unless I am looking at it for a child who is working completely independently.
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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cathhomeschool
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| So here is the practical question though...all that handwork takes time. So does more relationship building and finger play and all of that stuff. What is being dropped in order to make room for all of this? |
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Bookswithtea wrote:
So what ages are you working with in all of this and how are you doing it? What about the kids who are too old for fingerplay? Besides Christian, are they doing something else or just skipping that part and moving on to the activities that span a wide age range?
And if I could only read one book on this, from a homeschool perspective, what would it be? I'm very interested in incorporating more wonder into our home. My oldest was born practical and has no patience for this sort of thing, but my girls...they would love it.
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GREAT questions! I am eagerly awaiting the answers.
I have a houseful of boys, and none of them (not even the littles) are interested in fairies and the like, but the younger two would still be interested in finger plays (which they only get when we go to library storytime). I would love to incorporate more of this kind of thing into our home. We drifted away from art and music study last year, and we're starting to incorporate it again. I like what little I've learned of Waldorf art. Finger knitting sounds neat, but I don't know much about it. Hoping to learn more soon and incorporate it too.
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Reading this discussion has been very informative for me! Books, I wanted to share this link with ya!
http://naturalbaby.stores.yahoo.net/index.html
They still carry the great wooden rattles!
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Kim F
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In contrast to CM, lessons are not short with children moving quickly from one subject to another, and narrations are done after contemplation rather than right away.
>>>
This is the key draw for me. Incorporating Waldorf ideals in our home means slowing down and doing a few things well versus a lot of things in a rushed fashion. It is always hard for me to let things go but I think it has been an excellent approach to encourage focus and attention. They are digging deeper and they are calm. Unless I need to take a nap, but I digress.... <g>
Handwork takes time. That isn't time wasted though and you must look beyond the finished product when evaluating whether it is worth that time. Many of the recommended activities are rhythmic, repetitive, and relaxing. They help a child (and his mother!) counter overstimulation and collect himself. Sticking with a given handwork project to completion requires that one follows directions, practices patience and fortitude, and pays attention to detail. Those are all core skills that only come with lots of application.
We tend to 'say' we understand education is not the filling of the bucket but it is very hard to stop pouring. : )
I especially appreciate the notebook pages. For us the difference is that we are using fewer premade pages and more hand drawn narrations. They are encouraged to fill the page with content and color. They take time - more time than workbook pages. And we do some workbook pages too. We try to make a notebook page based on the actual lesson portion of the workbook work first. Then use the workbook for extra practice.
Not sure if that is helpful. I have never tried to be pure anything but Catholic. I take what I see as helpful and edifying from various methodologies and leave whatever is not. You don't need gnomes to glean from Waldorf. Which is good, because I am not all that fond of the little critters. : )
Kim
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msclavel
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| Posted: Sept 20 2007 at 4:16pm | IP Logged
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Kim F wrote:
| We tend to 'say' we understand education is not the filling of the bucket but it is very hard to stop pouring. : ) |
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Kim, you nailed it right there for me. I keep pouring and pouring!! I *thought* I had really figured this out this year. I *thought* I had really planned from my little girls up, instead of the other way around. But its just not happening the way I had hoped.I am noticing too many days of rushing from one thing to the next. Have we done math yet? Have we read enough? Did we "do" religion (thought this one just makes me laugh when I think it)? Rush rush rush. I look at the past three weeks and we've done lots of stuff, but most days I know we've all felt frazzled and grumpy by the end and I feel like a failure because I didn't get it all in. Teaching five kids and keeping the 3 yo and baby happy is REALLY HARD. And soccer practice and dinner and the beast that is my way behind laundry. But it so hard for me to let go and stop pouring.
I'm trying hard to find the rhythm of it all. How do I slow down? My children love to be creative. I promised them that art and creativity would be central to our learning this year. I don't think they're feeling it yet.
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: Sept 20 2007 at 4:22pm | IP Logged
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Maria,
I only have second but I wanted to let you know that I read on your blog that you were considering buying the Christopherus 1 syllabus. I laughed out loud because that was the day I was cramming said syllabus down Nicholas' throat. We've since compromised with it (one of those big family compromises) and I do see how it will bless us. I tried to leave a comment but I don't think it ever went through...
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Waldorf (
Topic Closed)
