| Author | |
LisaR
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2226
|
| Posted: Sept 08 2007 at 4:20pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
looks great! I fear that our "portfolio" is still at Church somewhere??
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Red Cardigan
Forum Pro
Joined: June 16 2007
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 470
|
| Posted: Sept 08 2007 at 8:35pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I don't want to be contentious or cause trouble here. 
But is anyone else bothered by the seriously deficient theology of the sacrament of Confirmation that requires all these things: community service, overnight/weekend co-ed retreats, classes that cover things the confirmandi should already know, etc.?
Confirmation is NOT supposed to be a "sacrament of adulthood" or the Catholic spiritual equivalent of a bar mitzvah. In the Eastern Rite Catholic churches Confirmation is given to infants immediately after their baptisms; in the Latin Church confirmation is ordinarily given to those old enough to understand it, though this is custom and not law. But "old enough to understand it" means just what it does for first communion: the age of reason! A child doesn't have to prove a deep theological understanding of the sacrament; simple understanding is enough. Further, requiring community service projects as a prerequisite, however noble an idea that might be, gets the sacrament exactly backwards: it is after confirmation that the confirmandi will be strengthened by the gifts of the Holy Spirit and capable of following His promptings to do good works.
Frankly, the "community service" notion and the fact that our parish refers to the recently confirmed as "ex-cons" (!) makes me think that those teens who view the sacrament as the one last thing they have to do before they can escape the "prison" of their parents' faith are picking up on something that is actually being implied, however unintentionally, by all these confirmation prep programs.
Again, not trying to ruffle feathers. But when people talk about participating in these programs, even by doing their own service projects or being allowed to skip some of the group activities, I can't help but wonder if all we're doing isn't, in the end, reinforcing the gravely deficient (and sometimes quasi-heretical) view of the sacrament of Confirmation that has been widely prevalent in America (and probably elsewhere) since the Second Vatican Council.  Granted, we do what we have to to get the sacraments for our kids, but I think these are some issues that are going to have to be dealt with at some point; most families I know either grumble their way through all of the (sometimes ridiculous) requirements, or sneak off to some other diocese for "stealth confirmations" celebrated by sympathetic and orthodox bishops who require far less proof or "preparation" than most peoples' parishes do.
__________________
http://www.redcardigan.blogspot.com
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
LisaR
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2226
|
| Posted: Sept 08 2007 at 8:49pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Red Cardigan, personally, dh and I are all for "restored order", however, we are at peace following the order that our DIocese has set before us.
(now if it were Communion before Pennance that would be another issue!)
I am not saying that some of this is troublesome, it is just that we do not feel that it is the ditch we need to die in- and we are happy to work with and trust our Church.
and...I ALWAYS correct those who try to say Confirmation is somehow an "adult decision" or "finally deciding to be Catholic for yourself" type bunk. I don't see that here though...
And if anything most Diocese are lowering the age- ours used to be high school Juniors- now it is 7th or 8th grade.
A fruit of "obeying" the requirements for confirmands and now for High School is that my son has grown in immeasurable ways by performing Catholic community service. So, while the two should not be linked- there still was great fruit and no harm that I can tell at all. and we never would have discoverd that had we not "obeyed" or followed protocol.....
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
jdostalik
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 15 2005
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2935
|
| Posted: Sept 08 2007 at 9:03pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Thanks for all the links, Elizabeth! You can't say there isn't a wealth of GOOD, SOLID materials out there..
__________________
God Bless,
Jennifer in TX
wife to Bill, mom to six here on earth and eight in heaven.
Let the Little Ones Come
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MicheleQ
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2193
|
| Posted: Sept 08 2007 at 10:46pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Red Cardigan wrote:
But is anyone else bothered by the seriously deficient theology of the sacrament of Confirmation that requires all these things: community service, overnight/weekend co-ed retreats, classes that cover things the confirmandi should already know, etc.?
Confirmation is NOT supposed to be a "sacrament of adulthood" or the Catholic spiritual equivalent of a bar mitzvah. |
|
|
Yep. Our Bishop made a point of telling the kids AT confirmation that "being confirmed doesn't make you an 'adult' in the Church - that's bad theology".
But the notion prevails.
I will say this for our DRE, she did away with the service hours requirement and just told the kids - "you're part of the Church, participate"! And she did warn them at the practice that if the Bishop asks what confirmation does, don't say it makes you an adult in the Church! 
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Tami
Forum All-Star
Joined: Dec 27 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1066
|
| Posted: Sept 09 2007 at 7:31am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Red Cardigan wrote:
I don't want to be contentious or cause trouble here.
But is anyone else bothered by the seriously deficient theology of the sacrament of Confirmation that requires all these things: community service, overnight/weekend co-ed retreats, classes that cover things the confirmandi should already know, etc.?
Confirmation is NOT supposed to be a "sacrament of adulthood" or the Catholic spiritual equivalent of a bar mitzvah. In the Eastern Rite Catholic churches Confirmation is given to infants immediately after their baptisms; in the Latin Church confirmation is ordinarily given to those old enough to understand it, though this is custom and not law. But "old enough to understand it" means just what it does for first communion: the age of reason! A child doesn't have to prove a deep theological understanding of the sacrament; simple understanding is enough. Further, requiring community service projects as a prerequisite, however noble an idea that might be, gets the sacrament exactly backwards: it is after confirmation that the confirmandi will be strengthened by the gifts of the Holy Spirit and capable of following His promptings to do good works.
|
|
|
It's so, so disappointing to see what confusion among the bishops has caused for the laity.
Bishop Olmstead of Phoenix, AZ has restored Confirmation to its rightful place. He wrote a beautiful pastoral letter on it. I have it on my computer but don't know how to link it here.
I had one really beautiful experience with one child, and a disastrous one with another. With the next child, it will be confirmation via RCIA. In the same parish where the one child had a horrible experience, the RCIA program is very, very good! He'll be confirmed that way. And he's at peace with that, actually - he'd prefer a mature discussion of the faith.
__________________
God bless,
Tami
When we are crushed like grapes, we cannot think of the wine we will become. (Nouwen)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MaryM
Board Moderator
Joined: Feb 11 2005
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13104
|
| Posted: Sept 09 2007 at 4:11pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Tami wrote:
| Bishop Olmstead of Phoenix, AZ has restored Confirmation to its rightful place. He wrote a beautiful pastoral letter on it. I have it on my computer but don't know how to link it here. |
|
|
Here is a link to Bishop Olmstead's letter. It has been shared on the forum before. There was a very recent discussion on the confirmation confusion.
Red Cardigan wrote:
| But is anyone else bothered by the seriously deficient theology of the sacrament of Confirmation .... |
|
|
Yes, many people are concerned about this theology and there are others that are just plain confused. So many of us were not properly catechised in this area having come of age in a time when confirmation was pushed to an older and older age and seen as "becoming an adult in the church." Understanding was based on what we were taught and many don't understand that what was taught is not a correct understanding of the sacrament. That is changing and I do see it being taught correctly in many places. What is positive is like Lisa said there is a current of moving the age younger and in many places even to the restored order.
__________________
Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MicheleQ
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2193
|
| Posted: Sept 09 2007 at 5:00pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
This is fabulous! I so wish every diocese would do this. It just makes so much more sense. I can't tell you how often I have to explain all this to people who don't understand why the children who are catechumens in my RCIA group are getting full initiation when the kids in the parish don't get confirmation until 8th grade.
I can see how our Bishop might move in this direction - how exciting!
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
LisaR
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2226
|
| Posted: Sept 09 2007 at 5:18pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
we are slowly moving that direction- I was jumping with joy for 7th grade over 11th! It is supposed to go to 6th at some point...
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Carole N.
Forum All-Star
Joined: Oct 28 2006
Location: Wales
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4484
|
| Posted: Sept 09 2007 at 7:50pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Here is my situation. In our parish/archdiocese, Confirmation is received in the 10th grade. It has a two year preparation, so my ds would be beginning this year. I have already started some of his preparation last year as time allows using the Didache series.
I was searching the internet for churches in Wales. There are many small churches there, and I have yet to contact any of them since I do not know which town we will choose to live in. But from what I can tell, it would seem that confirmation has already happened there. I have not actually spoken to a priest, but I want to start preparing ds for his Confirmation.
I read the CCC earlier today. I am so inspired by this sacrament and how little that I knew about it. You ladies have made so many great suggestions and I am forming a plan (thank you Elizabeth, Donna, Lisa, and Red Cardigan, and Mary), but I am concerned about presenting all of this to a priest. Any advice?
__________________
 Carole ... in Wales
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: Sept 13 2007 at 6:13am | IP Logged
|
|
|
You all might be interested in reading about this issue from a different perspective.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
LisaR
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2226
|
| Posted: Sept 13 2007 at 7:41am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Amen! As the wife of a former DRE, I would have to heartily agree with her post. As I said before, the fires we have had to put out, and the lack of respect we had/have been treated with, came from the Catholic Homeschoolers, and it can be embarassing and worse.
somehow there is a pervasive attitude out there that it is "us vs. them". it can infect us all....
now, I am off to take 35 Protestant Families and at least 85 kids on a field trip to a Catholic Monastery.
www.communityofstjohn.com
Please pray for us today!
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mary G
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5790
|
| Posted: Sept 13 2007 at 8:00am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Whoa guys .... every DRE is not the enemy, nor is every Catholic homeschooler the enemy. We're all trying to work together to help our children "know, love and serve God". That's it ... that's the goal. But because we all are approaching it from different angles ... backgrounds ... situations -- we're all going to do this differently. The MAJOR point we need to bring here is that CHARITY must be used ... charity from the DRE/Parish and most importantly charity from the homeschoolers. This is a GREAT chance for us homeschoolers to show parishes that we want to work together, to pray together, to play together in a way that will bring us all to THE Kingdom.
I'm a catechist at our parish; my dh is a catechist; my 16yod is helping too. We're also helping with RCIA. We have our children in the CCD program -- not for our kids' benefit totally, but for the benefit of the other kids in the class.
But, this is still begging the original question that Donna Marie originally posed -- can her family be forced to attend CCD?
__________________
MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
LisaR
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2226
|
| Posted: Sept 13 2007 at 8:19am | IP Logged
|
|
|
right, that is what I was getting at- that somehow it seems very pervasive to have a "us vs them" mentality...
no matter who you speak with!
does the term "forced" support this? I look at it as an act of obedience- if my Diocese has set guidelines, I obey, I do not feel "forced". again, if it was something inherently evil or wrong, of course I would say "no" in good conscience.
I guess I don't see that here.
Why not just go? Or volunteer to teach the class? Or help teach? We did this for a few of our sons for 2nd grade First Pennance/Communion (although we could have home educated for this Sacrament) and it was a rewarding and eye opening experience...
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
LisaR
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2226
|
| Posted: Sept 13 2007 at 8:23am | IP Logged
|
|
|
here is another "solution" idea that has worked well here: try using the Church of St Paul in Ham Lake, MN
"Family Formation" program.
Homeschoolers in our Diocese have used the program for years, and our Parishes are starting to use it now for Pre K-6th Grade Rel Ed.
We were more than happy to join in CCD in our parish with this being the chosen program.
Parents are THE PRIMARY EDUCATORS, the families only meet at Church once a month, the packets and education takes place 85% at home, and it is all Catechism Based.
I have heard a Confirmation Addition is in the works.
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mary G
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5790
|
| Posted: Sept 13 2007 at 8:25am | IP Logged
|
|
|
LisaR wrote:
does the term "forced" support this? I look at it as an act of obedience- if my Diocese has set guidelines, I obey, I do not feel "forced". again, if it was something inherently evil or wrong, of course I would say "no" in good conscience.
I guess I don't see that here.
Why not just go? Or volunteer to teach the class? Or help teach? We did this for a few of our sons for 2nd grade First Pennance/Communion (although we could have home educated for this Sacrament) and it was a rewarding and eye opening experience... |
|
|
Yes, Lisa -- the term "forced" connotes an us vs them. I guess what I'm trying to do (and not too successfully, I guess  ) is that we all need to work together. And yes, it is up to each diocese/parish. We also have to remember that if we feel we can teach better, than we should help/volunteer and spread some of those God-given talents around .... hard when you have lots of kids (and it can be expensive, altho I think most pastors are willing to "cut a deal" for those who need it) ...
Lisa, we're definitely "singing" from the same hymnal. Now, how did you get involved in bringing a bunch of folks to a monastery and which one is it?
__________________
MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
LisaR
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2226
|
| Posted: Sept 13 2007 at 8:33am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Mary G, I agree!  We ARE speaking the same language here (I just don't sing well!!!)
this is the website:
www.communityofstjohn.com
or the international one:
www.stjean.com
Dominican Founded order- you may have heard of Children's Adoration? this is them!
I have been a part of this academic co-op for years it has been super for all of us- almost all of the time!
Lab Sciences, a Stellar Choir directed by a University Voice Prof., and more. I've learned alot and have been very humbled by this faithful group of ladies....Being with them calls me to really live my faith to the fullest, but that is another post!
and now I really must go!
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: Sept 13 2007 at 8:48am | IP Logged
|
|
|
LisaR wrote:
here is another "solution" idea that has worked well here: try using the Church of St Paul in Ham Lake, MN
"Family Formation" program.
Homeschoolers in our Diocese have used the program for years, and our Parishes are starting to use it now for Pre K-6th Grade Rel Ed. |
|
|
Just hotlinking Church of St. Paul Family Formation program
I've heard good things about this program. The catalog offers some great tools for the younger children, such as the Holy Rosary cards, priest paper doll, and liturgical calendar.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mary G
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5790
|
| Posted: Sept 13 2007 at 9:07am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Mary G wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to do (and not too successfully, I guess ) is that we all need to work together. And yes, it is up to each diocese/parish. We also have to remember that if we feel we can teach better, than we should help/volunteer and spread some of those God-given talents around .... hard when you have lots of kids (and it can be expensive, altho I think most pastors are willing to "cut a deal" for those who need it) ...
|
|
|
I apologize if this comes off as saying everyone should volunteer -- it's easier for me as I just have the 3 littles (who are all right close in age) and I can be teaching one class and keeping an eye on another .... but that won't work when you have 4, 5, 6 or whatever, especially if CCD is not on Sundays (as mine is) and your dh is traveling/working and can't help too.....
I meant to have you imply  that this is how I'm dealing with CCD .... every situation is going to be different. And since we're all human here we all need to be charitable in all our dealings .... whether we're DREs, catechists, parents or just trying to get ourselves our children to Heaven!
__________________
MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: Sept 13 2007 at 9:43am | IP Logged
|
|
|
LisaR wrote:
Why not just go? Or volunteer to teach the class? Or help teach? |
|
|
Let's see...because my entire curriculum at home is built upon getting him ready for confirmation and it's a curriculum tailored specifically for THIS child, whom I know very, very well.
Because the last time we did CCD, he spent the entire time fielding notes from flirtatious pre-teenage girls (truthfully, this isn't a problem this time because the classes are same sex).
Because I have eight children (plus another family's child all day), all different ages, and my husband works evenings and is out of town 4 days a week (the classes are at different times and it's just that many more places I have to be).
Because I have a nursing baby and several other children who need me pretty much 24/7 and I would have to find childcare for them if I were teaching.
Because the time conflicts with soccer for my confirmation candidate and I can't imagine what would happen if I asked him to choose between Confirmation and the Olympic Development Team.
Because we live and breathe the faith at home and I am very confident that my child understands what he needs to be confirmed.
CCD adds a great deal of stress to my life.
Rare is the DRE who understands any of these concerns. There are some, but they are rare.
Large families are a dying breed in Catholic parishes and what we are trying to do is often "un-doable" by modern culture's standards. None of these reasons not to attend are "bad reasons" but none of them would hold any water in many parishes. For a mother who is devoting her entire life to educating her children in the faith at home and who is endeavoring to raise many children, it seems ironic that the parish's program to aid the parent in meeting her primary responsibility to raise children in the faith is a burden and not a help at all.
I do think it's difficult for someone who has never loaded five children into carseats in order to drive a sixth child some where so that he can cover material he's already covered to understand why this would reduce a mom to tears. And when she picks the child up and all he talks about is how annoying the giggling girls are who keep asking him to "go out" (and he's not yet eleven), she really questions the sanity of it all.
How many saints can we name who were educated in the faith by their parents? Did someone at the parish question why those parents (who were often illiterate) had the audacity to think they could handle the job of handing on the faith?
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Forum Locked) 
4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Mandatory CCD? UPDATE on pg4
