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Martha
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LisaR wrote:
| It really is more an attitude that "I am better than the Church" , that can prevade liberal and conservative circles alike. |
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One coudl just as easily say this of the DREs who insist they can withhold valid distribution of a sacrament unless someone follows there plans.
LisaR wrote:
| As opposed to an attitude of respect to our local Pastor, Bishop, Diocese. |
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Again, the DRE is not a pastor, priest, bishop, or the Church. They have been hired to ASSIST parents in the formation of their children. That does not obligate any parent to use that assistance. Nor is a parent who refuses such assistance being disrespectful by doing so.
LisaR wrote:
| Yes, we are the primary educators of our children. but we are also a community. |
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Which has nothing to do with anything here. The point of CCD is to prepare children for the sacraments. "Community" might be a nice fringe benefit at times, but that is not the purpose of the preparation and as such should not be the basis for doing it.
LisaR wrote:
| I can't tell you how many times rumors and attacks have been spread about our parish where dh worked, and now here in the Diocese, and sadly, the most fires we had to put out came from the homeschooling community. |
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gossip is a terrible thing, but I fail to see how not participating in CCD is the cause for rumor (which implies lies to my mind?) or attacks (which implies unfounded concern to my mind?). Yes, word is going to get around when someone has a beef or simply disagrees. Such is the politics of working for/with ANY group. The question is whether they have a valid issue.
LisaR wrote:
| I love the quote "in essentials unity, in all things charity". |
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I find this attitude of "If you aren't with us - you're against us." to be a major problem. Not doing CCD does not make me somehow less in union with our Church or uncharitable to anyone. If a DRE takes that attitude, she missing the point of the issue because she's letting her feelings cloud whether the person has a valid request.
LisaR wrote:
| I would hope that we could in general come to the consensus that our local Pastors and Bishops desire for our children the Sacraments. |
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Again, broken chant here, DREs are not priests or bishops. And when they say things like, "Your child cannot receive __ sacrament unless you do what I ask." then yeah, I get the impression the actual sacrament is of less concern to them than their arbitrary calendar of community events.
Now, if the DRE says, "This is what *I'm required to ask of your child, so if you want or need to go outside of these requirements, then we'll have to talk to Fr about what can or cannot be done." THAT I can completely understand and respect.
Again. A talk to the priest is the first line of business, imho.
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Martha
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LisaR
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yes, talk to your Priest. using a dialoge like the one I suggested  .
I mean community in the way that we are not "alone" in any of the Sacraments except, one could argue, Matrimony, where the couple marries eachother and the Priest/Deacon is just "witnessing", but I digress.
Dioceses DO feel the burden of being responsible for the conferring of the Sacraments, whether "recorded" or not.
I am not talking about community service, etc. I am talking about the fact that we are a part of a Body, and we at some time will need to work with those who are difficult/sinful and so on. The Church is not a Sacrament dispensing machine, to confer what we want, when we want. There is a difference between having a Martin Luther attitude and sticking it through some very very trying times. (sorry, studying the Protestant Revolt this year in the History co-op- whew- we think we have problems in the Church with DREs and so on today!!)
When it boils down to it I highly doubt that a DRE would really honestly "withhold a Sacrament" for not following through with "their plans". They just plain can't.
I am confident that speaking to a Priest, or if need be, the Diocese, would clear up any attitude there.
(and I have heard of families doing it successfully in Liberal and Conservative Dioceses alike).
Lastly, over the years, I have had friends and acquantainces say how horrible dealing with a DRE has been. I have asked very specifically if they could relay how their conversations occured, and the content. Most times, I have been incredulous, and have asked them to repeat themselves. I would not speak to an Atheist with such disdain. If we go into dealing with Our Holy Mother Church and her representatives with so much venom, hateful tone, and "you can't tell me what to do" attitude, no wonder many times we homeschoolers get a bad rap.
and, that's a wrap 
time for me to leave this venue for awhile.
Donna Marie, I do pray that your specific situation works out peacefully, I know the pressure of other homeschoolers "waiting in the wings" watching for the outcome/guidance.
Peace of Christ,
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
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Thomas 11
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Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
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Red Cardigan
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Matilda has already said most of what I would say here, too, but I'm going to add my $0.02 anyway.
Religious education at the parish level is provided for those children who do not attend Catholic schools. There are three different kinds of Catholic schools: diocesan schools, independent schools, and home schools. No one would tell the parents whose children attend an expensive prep school in the diocese run by Jesuits, say, that those kids also had to attend RE classes because the Jesuit school wasn't a diocesan school, right? Children who attend a Catholic home school should be shown the same level of respect; they should NOT be forced to repeat the education they've already received at home simply because they aren't paying money to the bishop or the diocese in order to get that Catholic education.
It is the pastor's responsibility to determine whether the children of his parish have been adequately prepared to receive the sacraments. In a parish with a large number of homeschoolers it would not be out of line for the pastor to delegate that responsibility, but there's a HUGE difference between "determining that the child has been properly educated/prepared for the sacrament" and "forcing the child and his parents to complete a second full course of religious instruction," often one that is woefully inadequate compared to the materials they have used in their homeschool.
Finally, I echo the call to go talk to the pastor. We left our parish and joined another for our first two daughters to receive first confession/first communion because the DRE at our parish said they either had to take classes or--get this--attend RCIA for children!!! I was insulted by that. However, when our dear pastor was about to leave our parish, I got up my courage to ask about our third daughter's sacraments, and he simply scheduled a time for her first confession and first communion, no questions asked.
God bless--I'll pray for this to work out well!
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Martha
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LisaR wrote:
| The Church is not a Sacrament dispensing machine, to confer what we want, when we want. |
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No, no, no. That is NOT what I'm saying at all. I know that and I think most parents know that as well. Really, come now, to relate myself to Martin Luther is a bit extreme I think.
I've said numerous times, if it is a case of the person not beign validly prepared to receive, then as with ANY sacrament - I agree with the Church.
LisaR wrote:
| When it boils down to it I highly doubt that a DRE would really honestly "withhold a Sacrament" for not following through with "their plans". They just plain can't. |
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I know that and you know that, but unfortunately many a DRE doesn't act like s/he knows it. Which is often what gets a parent's dander up.
LisaR wrote:
| I would not speak to an Atheist with such disdain. If we go into dealing with Our Holy Mother Church and her representatives with so much venom, hateful tone, and "you can't tell me what to do" attitude, no wonder many times we homeschoolers get a bad rap. |
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Again, I have not and I don't think anyone else has advocated checking common curtesy at the DRE's door. You see your side, but I've heard some pretty outlandish things from the other side too. Things like, "You can't use the Baltimore Catechism! It's not on our approved list. You have to use what's on my approved list." from my DRE.
Yes, a quick trip right that minute down the hall to the priest resolved the issue. And irked her to no end.
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Martha
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LisaR
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nope, I wasn't even thinking about you specifically when I wrote about the "Martin Luther" attitude. This is just a compilation of what I have heard and experienced over the years. (and I DO hear alot, I think we are a bit of the "dumping ground" because of dh's job).
signing off again
PS Red Cardigan, everyone knows what the independant Jesuit school uses/does for religious ed though, and unless we offer what we do to our Pastor, how would they know?
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
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Martha
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LisaR wrote:
| everyone knows what the independant Jesuit school uses/does for religious ed though, and unless we offer what we do to our Pastor, how would they know? |
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Simple!
Ask the kid a couple questions!
Frankly, I think every priest should be required to do this. We have a parish here that does this and it's not as big a deal to manage as some think it woudl be either.
Really, if the question is, "Are they prepared for this sacrament?" knowing what curriculum they are using or sending them to a class still doesn't answer that question.
The ONLY way to know if they are genuinely prepared is for the priest to actually ask them about their faith.
There are so many kids who finish a prep course/catholic school and still don't know basic things. For example, I know 3rd graders at a local Catholic school don't know what the holes in Christ's hands represent in pictures or what the keys represent in a picture of St. Peter and 3 couldn't name the pope. Now that info may not be exactly required for a sacrament, but my point is that having a curriculum list or even attending a Catholic school does not mean a child is gaining knowledge in their faith.
That's all my point is. If the main concern is assuring a child is prepared to validly receive a sacrament - then I'm all willing and able to discuss this with just about anyone.
In some cases though that is not what it's about at all, imho.
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Martha
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Red Cardigan
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LisaR wrote:
PS Red Cardigan, everyone knows what the independant Jesuit school uses/does for religious ed though, and unless we offer what we do to our Pastor, how would they know? |
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But, Lisa, no one is saying to the homeschoolers, "Oh, you're a Catholic homeschool? That's great! What do you use for religious ed.? Yes, we'll accept that. Can we schedule an interview so Father can talk to little Marcellinus and ask him a few questions before first confession/communion?"
No, what homeschool parents are hearing from the parish is more like, "Oh. You homeschool. Therefore you're not one of our Special People who pays $Many Dollars a year for tuition at the parish school (our motto: the 1970s were the Golden Age of Catechesis and anyone who says otherwise is a Latin Mass Freak). In that case, you'll have to prove your worthiness to get the sacraments for your kids by signing them up for all the religious ed classes we offer, plus we want you to prove you're Catholic by holding this felt banner and singing 'Kumbaya,' while shaking hands with at least ten other people. And if you show up wearing a mantilla or are heard to mutter "Et cum spiritu tuo," we're going to tell you your child's just not ready and will have to wait until next year--and repeat the class, of course."
There's a LOT of hostility at the parish level of most Catholic parishes for mothers who a)stay at home, b)homeschool, and c)are even remotely traditional in their faith, and pretending that this is not the case doesn't really get us anywhere.
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MaryM
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I know this is a very emotional topic. Within our own local homeschool community, sacramental prep and it's impact on homeschool/parish relations, is probably the leading cause of misunderstandings, frustrations, and hurt feelings (on all sides - both homeschoolers and priests/bishops/staff). To every situation/topic we bring an individual peception based on own personal experiences of the past and the emotions that come with that influence our perspective.
What would be most helpful to Donna Marie and her original post, is to get back to offering suggestions and ideas for approaching the situation. The written resources, the suggestions for who to talk to, sample scripted dialogue and the prayers are all practical helps to take into this situation. I think those concrete ideas offered so far have been very helpful and look forward to hearing more of those if anyone has some.
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Martha
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Red Cardigan wrote:
And if you show up wearing a mantilla or are heard to mutter "Et cum spiritu tuo," |
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ha! I'm in deep then because I don't do either of those things (don't even know what you muttered?!) and get the same vibe!
Red Cardigan wrote:
| There's a LOT of hostility |
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I don't know if it's hostility, sometimes it obviously is, MOST of the time, it's disinterest. "Oh. "They don't go to school and you don't have a sitter? Oh. Well. That's a shame for you then." "What do you mean this appears "fluffy" or "lite" in the faith? Oh well yeah, but you don't understand. We can't teach the faith like that because it woudl just be too hard and these people can't handle the Truth!"
Red Cardigan wrote:
| and pretending that this is not the case doesn't really get us anywhere. |
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Amen! Pretending these programs that are fluff at best and detremental at worst are okay because they are done int he name of "community" doesn't give my kids or anyone else's kids a better grounding in their faith.
And that is a true and sad shame. 
ETA: I really can't say this enough.
TALK TO THE PRIEST AND EVEN THE BISHOP IF NECCESSARY.
I really sound militant I suppose? I truely don't entend to. But I do think this is important enough to not back down from.
That doesn't mean we have to be cruel or mean, but unfortunately some people will have their feelings hurt. Some because they are active in the parish and see these views as a personal slight on their many hours of dedication. (Which it isn't, btw!) Others because they feel they are being forced into something that goes against their spiritual needs. (And yes, sometimes that is true and sometimes it isn't.) I wish it wasn't like that, but it is.
Be kind.
Be honest.
Be faithful.
Be persistant.
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Martha
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jdostalik
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MaryM wrote:
What would be most helpful to Donna Marie and her original post, is to get back to offering suggestions and ideas for approaching the situation. The written resources, the suggestions for who to talk to, sample scripted dialogue and the prayers are all practical helps to take into this situation. I think those concrete ideas offered so far have been very helpful and look forward to hearing more of those if anyone has some. |
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Me, too, please???!!! Lisa, I loved your idea about offering a portfolio, I have a course of study prepared for my 7th grader and see that a portfolio of actual work and projects would be very beneficial, as well. Please pray for me and my dh, I just called and left a message to schedule a meeting with our pastor to discuss our concern with their curriculum choice. I'm an emotional wreck about this...this is when I wish I was an Eastern Rite Catholic--baptism, Holy Communion and Chrismation all at once!!! What a deal!!! 
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Jennifer in TX
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Meredith
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MaryM wrote:
| What would be most helpful to Donna Marie and her original post, is to get back to offering suggestions and ideas for approaching the situation. The written resources, the suggestions for who to talk to, sample scripted dialogue and the prayers are all practical helps to take into this situation. I think those concrete ideas offered so far have been very helpful and look forward to hearing more of those if anyone has some. |
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I second this, and praying for your concerns and situation Donna Marie
jdostalik wrote:
| Please pray for me and my dh, I just called and left a message to schedule a meeting with our pastor to discuss our concern with their curriculum choice. I'm an emotional wreck about this...this is when I wish I was an Eastern Rite Catholic--baptism, Holy Communion and Chrismation all at once!!! What a deal!!! |
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Wouldn't that be something, praying for your family as well!!
Blessings!
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Meredith
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Mary G
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Again, Donna Marie and anyone else in a similar situation -- please go talk to your Pastor -- he is the duly Bishop-appointed head of the parish and should be able to answer your questions. If, however, you don't like the answer you get from him, than do follow-up with the Bishop's office. Our bandying our opinions and getting a bit heated in the process do nothing to fix the situation -- each parish/diocese is going to handle this differntly. But if we homeschoolers come in swinging instead of trying to work with the powers-that-be, we're just adding fuel to their fire.
All of you folks are in my prayers -- I'm blessed with an awesome parish and great Pastor and I'm sure there are many out there who want the best for our children ....
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Leonie
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Mary G wrote:
| Again, Donna Marie and anyone else in a similar situation -- please go talk to your Pastor -- he is the duly Bishop-appointed head of the parish and should be able to answer your questions. |
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Just jumping in to second Mary's advice. We have lived in many, many parishes, over our years of moving. Each parish priest and Diocese has had a different take on Sacrament preparation but talking to each has always brought a successful outcome - reception of the Sacrament - although sometimes with a bit of compromise on both sides.
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St. Ann
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Our Pastor just recently paid us a visit because of a similar question.
Dd2 will be receiving her First Holy Communion in the spring and groups are being formed now for the preparation. We asked him if we could instruct Maria ourselves because of certain health problems she has...and we also spoke about the lack of "meat" in the official instructions!!!!! He knows the failings of the system, but he knows that most of the parents teaching these groups have absolutely no knowledge of Church. But there is no one else to do it.
I was more than tempted to take on a group, but the materials one must use are almost worthless on a certain level, and I would need so much extra time remodeling the whole program for our group...it is just plain too much for our family ... and my health right now.
We also told the Pastor that we would be instructing Maria even if she would be required to attend all group functions.
He was surprisingly compliant, albeit with a couple of conditions, which we are more than happy to fulfill. She will attend all the group meetings that the priest leads in the church building itself, and will officially belong to a group, but is not required to attend a certain number to be allowed to receive the Sacrament.
I certainly agree that an open discussion with the Pastor is very important. Let him know what kind of progress your child has made. We will be showing him her work book...Maybe we will make a lapbook even????HMMmmmm
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Elizabeth
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jdostalik wrote:
MaryM wrote:
What would be most helpful to Donna Marie and her original post, is to get back to offering suggestions and ideas for approaching the situation. The written resources, the suggestions for who to talk to, sample scripted dialogue and the prayers are all practical helps to take into this situation. I think those concrete ideas offered so far have been very helpful and look forward to hearing more of those if anyone has some. |
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Me, too, please???!!! Lisa, I loved your idea about offering a portfolio, I have a course of study prepared for my 7th grader and see that a portfolio of actual work and projects would be very beneficial, as well. Please pray for me and my dh, I just called and left a message to schedule a meeting with our pastor to discuss our concern with their curriculum choice. I'm an emotional wreck about this...this is when I wish I was an Eastern Rite Catholic--baptism, Holy Communion and Chrismation all at once!!! What a deal!!! |
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We did a portfolio for Christian (well, it was a notebook, but that's the idea). My pastor still has it and he's moved to another parish . I thought we'd get them back and I should probably ask the DRE about it. I'm in a big hurry this morning, but I do know that there are threads on Confirmation notebooks. Donna Marie, perhaps if you made list of what was going to be in the notebook and took that with you to talk to the pastor, clearly showing what your plan for preparation is, that would help. Sometimes, it's beneficial to have something tangible for the discussion. Christian was required to write about both a corporal and spiritual work of mercy that he did during the prep year. That was his "Community" involvement.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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PDyer
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MaryM wrote:
| What would be most helpful to Donna Marie and her original post, is to get back to offering suggestions and ideas for approaching the situation. The written resources, the suggestions for who to talk to, sample scripted dialogue and the prayers are all practical helps to take into this situation. I think those concrete ideas offered so far have been very helpful and look forward to hearing more of those if anyone has some. |
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Oh please yes. The more I find out about local teen 'programming', the more concerns I have about confirmation retreats, youth groups, etc. I would be very grateful for more description of how people have handled concerns with their pastor.
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Patty
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Martha
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I too, would be very interested in what you include in the portfolio/notebooks?
If you keep a general liturgical notebook for your homeschool is that enough? If not, what would you add to it?
I've been extra diligent so far this year, in taking pictures and such of our activities in and out of the home, so it would actually be fairly easy to simply excerpt the religous ones into their own binder?
Very eager to know what others have done in this area?
Oh! And could we share what we've done to "prepare" them? I'm not so much talking about texts as actual activities and enrichment stuff?
I'm visual, so a plea for someone to blog pic of theirs is being issued! 
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LisaR
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Lots of Parishes are now offering the T3: Jeff Cavins Bible Timeline for Teens DVD and study program as part of their Confirmation Prep. It covers all of Salvation History. What we have learned is that if we are unhappy about a program/requirement, and we know of better/other resources out there, we need to be ready to offer to help run it, or at least help get it up and going. I will say that this particular program is so very easy to run and facilitate- the materials are all top notch!
RE: mandatory community service- ds had some very minimal hours/"jobs" that he needed to journal about in his portfolio. (confirmation was 7th grade) We kind of sniggered about this- as he is ALWAYS doing some sort of service as the oldest in our family, and one of the oldest in the homeschool group- besides what our family just does as a way of life in the neighborhood, etc.
However...he is now a 9th grader at a Catholic High School. There is an entire Christian Service Program that is extremely well organized and the entire city/area depends on these 900 high school students. They need a minimum of 100 hours to graduate,but the average student has more like 160. The jobs are all matched up to a Beatitude, and none of them are a "stretch" - all very basic and very real needs.
Ds already this summer ran a boys group within the Missionary Sisters of Charity's all summer long inner City Catechism camp for Mexican kids. It was a profound experience for Joe, one that we never would have thought of on our own, if it were not for the listing of all of the agencies/orders that needed help.
I know it can seem "forced" or "contrived" but the bottom line is that many people need help, and this is just an organized way to get the word out there and get much needed help where it is important, while also providing for varied and enriching opportunities for the students.....
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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jdostalik
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LisaR wrote:
Lots of Parishes are now offering the T3: Jeff Cavins Bible Timeline for Teens DVD and study program as part of their Confirmation Prep. It covers all of Salvation History. What we have learned is that if we are unhappy about a program/requirement, and we know of better/other resources out there, we need to be ready to offer to help run it, or at least help get it up and going. I will say that this particular program is so very easy to run and facilitate- the materials are all top notch!
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Great to know that you liked this, Lisa! I ordered it a few weeks ago and am looking forward to doing it with dd!!
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God Bless,
Jennifer in TX
wife to Bill, mom to six here on earth and eight in heaven.
Let the Little Ones Come
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Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
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| Posted: Sept 08 2007 at 4:13pm | IP Logged
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Here are some helpful links to look at as you pull together a plan to present to your pastor:
Confirmation notebooks
CCD or Confirmation prep at home
T3 Bible Study for Teens
Comfirmation notebook ideas
I had some ideas here
And a reading list here
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Mandatory CCD? UPDATE on pg4
