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Elizabeth
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Kathryn UK wrote:
WJFR wrote:
| Maybe Charlotte Mason is right that if you have the ideal that every child has the right to a good education, you have to do it more broadly and generously -- include things in the curriculum that will suit all different types of intelligences, and let them focus more on the areas they have as a strength. Just thinking out loud, |
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This is why I always bounce back to CM, even when something else seems attractive. CM builds in a breadth that does allow the curriculum to be tailored to the individual. I guess the big difference between the Latin Centered Curriculum and CM is that in LCC the emphasis is on particular educational content whereas CM is education "for the children's sake". |
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What Kathryn and Willa said  .
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Kim F
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<<I thought there was going to be more "how to" kind of information and at least on a first reading it didn't seem too simple to me. >>
And I think the reason for this is simple - the author has not actually implemented his own plan in his home yet since his only child is 4. That doesn't discredit his theory necessarily, but it certainly limits the depth and breadth he can bring to the discussion. Another good reason to very carefully consider the background of an author and what shortcomings they might be operating from.
I agree with Willa that almost any method *can* work. There are too many varied success stories to explain away otherwise. I think what is bothering Elizabeth is the same thing that bothered me in the CHC thread. There is a tendency for homeschoolers, especially newer ones, to fall into the *one right way* trap. Some books and methods (or their following) encourage that belief more than others and that can be a danger - even if the materials or methods are very very good. There are simply too many ways to succeed and none of them work if they aren't sensitively matched to the child and his family.
There are also a lot of ways to interpret success and families need to be aware that excellence does not look the same everywhere. To an Amish farmer excellence might equate to a solid grammar school formation followed by mastering a trade in the teen years,opening a business, and being able to support a family. That same farmer might even frown upon overemphasizing bookwork to the detriment of hand skills. A family whose lives are based around the university, or the symphony, or professional sports would define excellence very differently. They would all be right however.
Personally I am most disappointed that his book did not turn out to be a good elaboration of his blog and web articles. It originally appeared to be ARt Robinson meets classical content and that I could get excited about lol! We were scrambling to try to recall MacBeth's exact quote years ago about being a classical unschooler with a Charlotte Mason bent. I loved that line! And this initially seemed like it was going to expound upon just that. Oh well. Doesn't mean those of us who were drawn to that idea cannot still embrace and refine it ourselves. That is the beauty of homeschooling, especially if we can let go of the *one right way* and just be at peace with the right way for *us*.
Kim
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Cay Gibson
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Kathryn UK wrote:
This is why I always bounce back to CM, even when something else seems attractive. CM builds in a breadth that does allow the curriculum to be tailored to the individual. I guess the big difference between the Latin Centered Curriculum and CM is that in LCC the emphasis is on particular educational content whereas CM is education "for the children's sake". |
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Excellent, Kathryn! 
While reading Elizabeth's evaluation of LCC and thinking, "Oh, no! that doesn't sound like what we need at all."  , at one point I breathed deeply and thought, "Can't we just go back to CM and start the school year with that?" 
These threads have helped me so much to evaluate where we're going this year, and I'm very much at peace with it. 
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JuliaT
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There is irony in this thread for me. When this thread started, I was implementing LCC. We have been doing this for a year and it has worked for us. Or rather for me. It was simple for me to carry out. Yes, it truly was. But I noticed different things in my dd that caused me concern. She doesn't like to do learning things anymore. She complains when we do 'school' things. I was dealing with alot of attitude. I have struggled with this for awhle. I just chalked it up to an attitude problem and we would need to work on it.
As time went on, I started to doubt whether this was just attitude. I realized that the things that always got pushed aside were art, music and nature study. Now the nature study didn't bother me cause I am not good at this at all. The pushing out of the other things did upset me. I started wondering if this was maybe the reason for the attitude. My dd didn't have any creative outlet.
I have struggled and struggled with this for the past few weeks. I like LCC. I like what it represents. I love the classical education model. After much prayer and thought(and many postings on my blog) I have decided to revamp my schedule. I am taking time during the day to do picture study, poetry(to read not memorized) and nature study. I am sliding into the CM camp. When I look at our schedule, it looks like alot. The subjects are only 10--15 minutes but there are alot of them. I think, though, that my dd will like this better because there is more time for creativity.
This has saddened me. I really wanted LCC to work for us. I think it can work for many. It works for Jennifer. Yay for you, Jennifer. I am truly happy that it works for you. Isn't that what homeschooling is all about? Finding the right fit for you and your children. If it isn't LCC, well, that's okay. Nobody says it has to be. But if it does work for others I think we should be equally happy for them.
Warmly,
Julia
http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/Juliainsk/
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Leonie
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I haven't been reading this thread but just hopped on for a peek this morning after our family walk.
I haven't been reading the thread simply because I have learned that Latin centred/classical centred curriculum is not us.
Neither is a workbook programme. Or CHC. Or many other thigns.
We like CM and the idea of education "for the childrens' sake." We might seem to have a classical bent in our reading. We might seem unschooling. But the child and the family and living books are the centre of our homeschool.
This is always where we return, after forays into schedules, etc.
Do I use TWTM, DYOCC, FIAR as guides? Yep.
Do I use our state's educational outcomes as a guide and for accountability? Yep.
But, ultimately it is the child and our faith and family that influences our homeschool.
Mind you, this thread makes me want to read LCC (and TJE) simply our of curiousity! 
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It's true, many children will not thrive on the LCC. Likewise, some dont thrive on CM or unschooling etc. One size does not fit all... but we can build around that.
One thing I have learned is that I do not take everything from just one source, but rather from many sources. Sometimes, mid-year, I need to re-group and take another look... because it isn't working.
I liked LCC because the vision is one I have often had... that is the vision of a Classical Education for my son. He thrives off of it... he is much better for having a structured life, and he likes it that way.
I have a suspicion that my DD is going to be a little different!
As for the reading each day... I must comment that Drew did say that the schooltime reading was included in the 'read aloud' category , so it does negate some of the time he says to spend on school. Likewise he encourages people to adapt it to themselves...
And I think that is something we all forget sometimes... any homeschooling book can only be the vaguest of guides... books like TWTM and LCC can give us ideas. When we team them with Real Learning, they can give us a lifestyle... and when we apply it to our children, we have to remember to sometimes follow the rabbit trails. We are not like the schools out there... we are fluid and adaptable to each individual child... and no book can mimic that well at all! All they can do is let us follow our own version of their suggested path
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Cay Gibson
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~Rachel~ wrote:
| And I think that is something we all forget sometimes... any homeschooling book can only be the vaguest of guides... books like TWTM and LCC can give us ideas. When we team them with Real Learning, they can give us a lifestyle... and when we apply it to our children, we have to remember to sometimes follow the rabbit trails. We are not like the schools out there... we are fluid and adaptable to each individual child... and no book can mimic that well at all! All they can do is let us follow our own version of their suggested path |
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Well said, Rachel.
I think, after all our discussions concerning what to "call" our style education, it comes down to "Real Learning."
We can choose any curricula we want (or that suits our child) but Real Learning
has to be mixed in with it or we're just following a book and that's not a complete education.
Real Learning has to be thrown in to anything else we do, whether it's Classical, CM, Seton, literature-based, unit studies, etc.
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BrendaPeter
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JuliaT wrote:
This has saddened me. I really wanted LCC to work for us. |
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Hi Julia,
Don't worry about it too much. If LCC doesn't work now, it could always work later. Stay open to the possibilities. There's so much give & take in parenting/homeschooling. Your dd needs to experience your willingness to allow her to do some of the things she enjoys. The beauty of homeschooling is that there is time to do this!
Although we basically are latin-centered (or as Macbeth puts it Classical-CM-unschoolers!) in our home, I'm not sure my kids even realize it ! As the years have gone on & our family has grown, so many of the things we do have just become what I call a homeschooling "lifestyle". Certain activities (like listening to books on tape) define us & it's pretty much accepted all around that that's what we do.
The whole process is really a journey as our homeschool certainly doesn't resemble the school we started out with!
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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~Rachel~
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It's kind of funny the adaptations we have made here... I (I blush to say it  ) hate reading aloud. I always find myself wanting to rush ahead... so audio book have become a huge part of our lives here, and DS spends naptime listening to one!
Similarly, every advent we do one of the Real Learning studies... reindeer, Tomie de Paola, gingerbread... you get the idea!
Summer, we're in the garden... DS has his own one! We go to historical sites and enjoy things ourselves. Everything becomes a learning opportunity!
I read Elizabeth's book before I started to homeschool, and I realised that the best I could ask for was to live a life of learning... for me, my children and my husband too... and so we try adapting the things I like to my way of seeing them.
Our recent evaluation impressed our evaluator, who loved DS's garden, was impressed with his Latin... and impressed with his non-stop chatter and tidy room too!
It's so fun to be here learning and seeing that little spark of interest every so often! Although I'd prefer it if it didn't happen with Knight Rider the way it has!!
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time4tea
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Quote:
| Also he was a German teacher |
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I am fluent in German (have a certification from a German school and worked in translation in my "pre-Mommy" life!), and I keep wondering about the German-Latin connection (there are many similarities between the two languages). Can't you accomplish at least *some* (even if not all) of the goals that Latin is supposed to teach your dc (such as logic) by learning German, a language which also has nouns and adjectives that change endings based upon their case, as well as employing more cases than we commonly do in English (German makes common use of the nominative, accusative, dative and gentive cases)? Any others with a German background wish to comment here? While I would not be against learning Latin (provided I can carve out the time), I am trying hard to talk myself into learning it when I can teach my dc German - now.
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The idea behind Latin is to be able to read the originals of some of the literature in later (high school) years.
To be honest, if you are fluent in German, I see no reason why you should not teach your kids German Latin can always wait... most of the mothers on the Latin centered site didn't learn until their homeschooling parent years
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Mungo
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I hope it's not too out of place for me to step in here and say a few words. I figured it might be helpful to have some information "from the horse's mouth."
About my dd: If she were in ps, she would probably considered gifted. She began learning to read a few months before her third birthday and was reading fluently by 3 1/2. She turned 5 last month and is about 3/4 of the way through Latina Christiana. I have not begun Greek with her yet. She is a very social, active child, with a variety of interests beyond books, and believe me, there are days when Latin is on the very bottom of her personal to-do list.
I've been quite surprised at how many people are sceptical of LCC simply because I have not homeschooled a large family. If it helps set people's minds at ease, I have been teaching, in one setting or another, for over 20 years. Most of my experience is with individual and small-group tutoring - settings most like homeschooling - but I have also worked as a classroom teacher, a school administrator, a lecturer and workshop leader, and an adult literacy volunteer. Not including my dd, my students have ranged from age 6 to age 76; some of them have been homeschoolers. As I think someone mentioned, my academic background is in German; I have a doctorate, and my course of study included instruction in pedagogy, curriculum design, and even a little Latin.
The curriculum in the book is based to a certain extent on that of the Highlands Latin School and other tradition-minded schools. It also draws, especially in the elementary-school years, on a foundation shared by CM, Core Knowledge, even Waldorf. So although the packaging may make LCC look innovative, it is neither new nor untried. More important, though, is the fact that the basis of the program - classical languages as the "spine" of the language arts - is what classical education was about until the early 1980s.
LCC is not a book for those just beginning to explore homeschooling. I'd be surprised if it was even on the radar of new homeschoolers. Rather, it was written for parents already committed both to homeschooling and to classical education, especially those who found themselves overwhelmed by the demands of the more popular neoclassical programs. It is for people who have read Climbing Parnassus and wondered how they might provide a similar style of education at home. In fact, I strongly recommend that people considering LCC read CP and Norms and Nobility first. If the educational models presented in those two books don't speak to them, it's unlikely that LCC will either. They can safely cross it off their list and look to other methods!
There are two assumptions that I bring to the book: First, that parents will by necessity modify any homeschooling program, and second, that no curriculum is right for all children or for all families. I trust homeschooling parents to read critically, take what works for them and their children, and leave the rest. And that might be the whole book, or even classical education itself! As my mother used to say, "Bless them if they do, and bless them if they don't!" As someone said here, there is no LCC police!
I recognize, and tried to convey in the book, that each child, each family is unique. For example, in the introduction, I talk about the importance of giving time to children's interests, even when those don't appear to "fit" with the program as written. In the section on scheduling, I emphasize that the schedules presented are only one possibility. Different situations call for different schedules: a single parent who works outside the home will schedule differently from the mother of 8 on a working farm. Obviously if it takes you an hour to drive to a natural setting, allotting an hour a week for Nature Study won't work! Likewise - and despite what one might think after looking at the scope-and-sequence charts alone - I do not assume that all children must begin Latin in K or they will be "behind." What I do suggest is that children begin Latin after they've mastered English phonics, whenever that may be. In my dd's case, and that of a few other children I know, that was at age 4. For many children, it will be somewhere between 2nd and 4th grade, or even later. That's all good. My motto is "Any Latin is better than no Latin!" - even if it's learned as an octogenarian. There are, however, strong reasons for an early start, and I talk about these in the book.
Because it is impossible to address, between the covers on one book, every possible situation a given homeschooler may have to cope with, the publisher suggested that we set up a site, with forums, to help people get an idea of what LCC looks like "on the ground" and to get their questions answered. That site is at latincentered.com, and I would very much encourage anyone who is considering LCC to drop by and have a look around. There are articles by parents who are actually doing this, including a series of "day-in-the-life" articles. There is also an active YahooGroup with over 600 members (LatinClassicalEd). Finally, I have a personal blog to put a real-life face on the information posted at the LCC site at runningriverlatinschool.blogspot.com.
I feel somewhat awkward posting this, and again, I hope it is not out of line. I am happy to answer any specific questions you may have at the site mentioned above; there is also an email link for me there.
Warmly,
Drew Campbell (a.k.a. Mungo)
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Helen
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Dear "Mungo",
Thanks very much for the post!
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Lissa
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Drew,
You are very welcome here! Quite a few 4Realers are authors and/or publishers who have participated in discussions of their own work at one time or another--Cay Gibson, Julie Bogart, Michele Quigley, me, and of course Elizabeth, to name a few. And your easy-going and charitable approach to discourse is always a pleasure.
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Elizabeth
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Welcome, Drew! we're happy to have you!
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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I went and looked at the LCC site last night and found the forums and the typical days -- (look at LCC Reality Editions parts 1-3), Oh, and here's the
blog
Just in case anyone wants to use these direct links -- but there are lots of other things over there too -- it has grown a lot since I last visited it!
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Willa
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Lissa
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Drew wrote:
| The curriculum in the book is based to a certain extent on that of the Highlands Latin School and other tradition-minded schools. It also draws, especially in the elementary-school years, on a foundation shared by CM, Core Knowledge, even Waldorf. So although the packaging may make LCC look innovative, it is neither new nor untried. More important, though, is the fact that the basis of the program - classical languages as the "spine" of the language arts - is what classical education was about until the early 1980s. |
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These two points are what struck me most about the book (and I will probably crib here from a half-finished blog post I've been working on). When I think about education, I keep coming back to the marriage of the "what" (content) and the "how" (method). I too have always appreciated MacBeth's description, "Classical unschoolers in the Charlotte Mason tradition." In that phrase she is speaking to a felicitous blend of what and how. "Classical" informs the content. Unschooling and Charlotte Mason inform the method. At least that's how I've always interpreted the phrase.
LCC seems to me to speak more to content than method. That's part of its tremendous appeal to me: it's a (for me) fresh look at the whole question of WHAT. As Drew says, it's not a brand new WHAT--the content he recommends is drawn from a body of literature and thought that is very familiar to people who've explored Ambleside, Mater Amabilis, CCM, even Waldorf.
Certainly there are some differences: LCC doesn't do much in the way of incorporating the best of contemporary (last 80 yrs) picture books into an early years curriculum in the vein of Real Learning, FIAR, Picture Book Preschool, etc. (That's another upcoming blog post, LOL. I am raiding my drafts file this morning!) And Drew's outline puts classics of children's literature in a kind of extracurricular position, but he does make a strong recommendation to read and enjoy these beloved books as a family.
But to a great extent, the elementary years of LCC's "what" parallel the content of the CM programs. CM does place more emphasis on local history, modern history & geography, I think, but she's recommending many of the same Latin texts (in translation) as reading for civics and world history. CM urges the study of modern languages; LCC says learn Latin and Greek. But they both say: read myths, fables, fine poetry--and they say this not lightly but with great emphasis. Young children, according to both educational traditions, are to be steeped in classic tales of heroism and adventure.
In the later years I see more differences between the recommended reading, with LCC focusing on reading the Latin and Greek texts in the original. That's a significant difference from pretty much everything else. And I can see that that's where a family (or student) who inclines more toward kinesthetic learning or natural science or English lit or homesteading, etc, might not find LCC the best fit for their goals & interests. But it may suit other kids extremely well. The "not many but much" philosophy (shared by CM, really) allows, I think, for so much flexibility.
In my home, with our very relaxed unschoolish style, LCC translates to the diligent study of Latin as our only highly structured subject, with all other areas (including math, because we tend to do that in spurts and lulls) taking a more seasonal ebb-and-flow rhythm, the tidal homeschooling thing I'm always talking about.
(Oh, occurs to me catechism is our other fairly consistent "subject"--but not via structured curriculum, more informally in daily life but happening pretty much every day as a PART of life.)
I started this post early this morning and am now scrambling to finish hours later, so if it's disjointed or has incomplete thoughts, that's why.
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Lissa
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quoting myself wrote:
| In my home, with our very relaxed unschoolish style, LCC translates to the diligent study of Latin as our only highly structured subject, with all other areas (including math, because we tend to do that in spurts and lulls) taking a more seasonal ebb-and-flow rhythm, the tidal homeschooling thing I'm always talking about. |
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Meant to clarify, this is a big change from years past. Previously I'd have said history played that role, the more structured & regular pursuit (through historical fiction and engaging spine texts like Hillyer, Foster, etc). My shift this past year has been toward an even more unschoolish approach to history, with (since spring, and then on hiatus since Scott left for CA!) the introduction of daily Latin study as our most structured and regular subject. I guess it's our version of what Willa terms Classical unschooling!
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Willa
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Lissa, funny you should mention history as the former spine of your homeschool. It was that way for me too at the beginning. But I felt I was having to discard too much that didn't "fit" in the chronological cycle (we are doing the ancients so we can't read On to Oregon). Or if not discard, leave it in as a sort of piecework, which always frustrates me and makes me feel I'm spinning my wheels. I like to be able to see the big picture.
I still use an integrated chronological framework in the high school years but in the younger years go for a literature/language immersion. Latin is an excellent way to pin it all together -- history, language, literature, religion -- and I think language/literature as the core in the earlier years is really the key to building up momentum in the later school years.
This is an interesting thread.
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Willa
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alicegunther
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Mungo wrote:
I feel somewhat awkward posting this, and again, I hope it is not out of line. I am happy to answer any specific questions you may have at the site mentioned above; there is also an email link for me there.
Warmly,
Drew Campbell (a.k.a. Mungo) |
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You are more than welcome here, Drew, and I am grateful to you for your thoughtful post. After reading your book, our family decided to run with some of your ideas, "decluttering" our curriculum and emphasizing Latin quite a bit more. I was very glad that so many of the sources you recommended were already on our shelf--Greek Myths, Aesop, Prima Latina, Latina Christiana, Famous Men of Rome, and many others.
By the way, you earned an enduring place in our hearts several months ago when you referenced the amusing "workbooks" poem my 12 year old daughter Agnes wrote on your blog. Many thanks for that!
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Latin Centered Curriculum
