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folklaur
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I have recently started reading this book.
I have read some of his other work, but this (I am only three chapters in...) is so very, very disturbing.
It got me thinking, though, and I would love to hear your thoughts too.
this really wasn't the basis for the book so far - but it started the chain thought.
I often hear of talk about teenagers - even on different homeschool forums there is often talk of how the teenage brain does not truly understand consequences because that part isn't formed yet, about not having the level of maturity needed to make (and understand the consequences of) decisions, being extremely hormonal, etc, etc.
So, as I read Gatto's book, and come to this paragraph:
John Taylor Gatto wrote:
| When he [Johnathan Goodwin - he talks about his schooling on page two of the article] left 7th grade, he was just a little older than America's first Admiral, David Farragut was when he took command of a captured British ship at age 12 and sailed it to Boston; the same age George Washington was when he dropped out of schooling; the same age as Thomas Jefferson when as a young man Thomas began to manage a large plantation and 250 employees in Virginia (both his parents being deceased)." |
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So, then it makes me wonder - the "experts" who tell us how hormonal, how unable (and unstable) teenagers are, how they can't make good or rational decisions, how they are unable to understand consequences - how valid is that idea really?
Is our desire to keep them little, keep them childish - the reason why we have such "problems" in the teenage years?
Are we repressing them too much by forcing them to be dependent, to be childish - repressing their independence, their mental capacity, their sexuality, in order to keep them in the artificial state of childhood?
And is it our fault - though we don't know any different - since this is the same system (even though as homeschoolers we have "bucked the system" to a degree) - but how ingrained it is even now, into the way we think?
Another quote from the book:
John Taylor Gatto wrote:
| "In fact, until pretty recently, people who reached the age of thirteen weren't looked up on as children at all. Ariel Durant, who co-wrote an enormous, and very good, multivolume history of the world with her husband Will, was happily married at fifteen...." |
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Fifteen? We squirm at the very idea now - she is a "child"! "Happily Married" is no place for a fifteen year old! Yes, we all may have grandmothers or great-grandmothers who were married at 14 or 15, but now the very idea seems antiquated and in many cases, illegal.
But is the artificial extension of childhood one of the major reasons we have "adults" in their 20's and 30's who still haven't grown up?
(and, so far, -as i said i am not too far in - according to Gatto's book, having a society that is mainly children-in-adult-bodies is exactly the goal - as who better to work and consume without thinking too much?)
thoughts? opinions? have at it, please, I would love to hear what you think, if you agree, disagree, etc.
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JodieLyn
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Oh yes, I agree with you.. children (under 18's) are not given responsibility equal to their ability..
but the other side of that coin is that they are given the go ahead to "play" at being "grown up".
all the "fun" and no responsibility 
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All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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folklaur
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JodieLyn wrote:
but the other side of that coin is that they are given the go ahead to "play" at being "grown up".
all the "fun" and no responsibility |
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right - but i wonder if that is because most "grown-ups" are not truly grown up either. the younger generation has no idea what to "play at" because they don't have true, real, "grown up" models to imitate.
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Barbara C.
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If you read other Gatto, though, you can really see how the introduction of compulsory education was geared towards "extending childhood" and basically making a whole strata of people that would be incapable of critical thinking and in a retarded state of maturity because such people are more likely to be blindly obedient to the status quo as well consumeristic.
It is scary when you read a book like "Brave New World" which was intended as science fiction and realize that it is really not that far from our current reality.
I wouldn't be surprised to if one could trace some of this adult adolescence to the break-down of the family. Many of my friends, who are children of divorce and/or abuse, eschew having children because they're a "burden" or they're afraid of "messing them up".
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Anneof 5
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Interesting topic. On the other end of the spectrum, though, I have seen such an emphasis on having little kids grow up fast, not cry when they have to go to daycare or preschool, parents really pushing them to be independent really early. My parents bragged at how much my nieces who went to daycare were able to do by themselves. Parents are told by the "experts" that the child needs to separate from them and not to worry about it. When does the switch take place? When does this push for independence stop?
This book sounds a little like Boys Adrift by Leonard Sax or The Dumbest Generation by Mark Bauerlien. I haven't read them but have heard the authors discuss them on various radio programs. I would love to have time to read all of these!
Anne
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Bookswithtea
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I have wondered a lot about this, Laura. I mean, is there some way we could treat our teens more like adults within our culture that might encourage them in right directions?
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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JodieLyn
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Anne, it's all about not being influenced by the adults in the child's life.. you break the bond when they're little and you push them away as they get older.. but you require them to be children until at least 18.
Books, I would think meaningful work. Be it exploring things that they may not have time to pursue as adults with working full time.. for instance learning to play the piano or learning to sew or learning botany or car mechanics.. things that you may use later that you may not have time to learn.. or working at a family business or helping out seniors with yard work or mowing lawns for pay. They'll know if it's "makeshift" work or meaningful work. And it's the later that helps them grow.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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BrendaPeter
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I know of a priest who has explained how Our Lord RAN his father's carpenter shop at the age of 13 and that our sons, especially those who have received the sacrament of Confirmation, should be capable of doing the same.
I'm sure we all realize that we live a very "soft" life in this country (yes, the land of adolescence) but it's extremely challenging to change that in the home when that's all we know. I have struggled with this issue for years. Bottom line is that we stay close to Our Lord and Our Lady and pray to be the best wife & mother we can be.
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folklaur
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see - I keep coming back to the idea of a 12 year old boy commanding a SHIP and SAILING it in the ocean - not helping, but being the CAPTAIN. Thomas Jefferson running a whole plantation - his parents being deceased, and he was in charge of it.
these weren't just hobbies. i know i am not saying what i mean very well.
My son is going to be 11 this year.
the difference is staggering to me. i can not imagine for one moment my 11 year old captaining a ship in the middle of the ocean, (except for when he plays make believe.)
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BrendaPeter
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I once read an old, very well-written book about Daniel Boone and in the 1st chapter I was absolutely struck by the kind of life Daniel Boone lived from the perspective that he lived without SO MANY of the creature comforts that we take for granted. I really had an "Ah-ha" moment when I realized that that was a big part of why Daniel Boone was who he was. He was tough because he had to be tough. One doesn't become a Daniel Boone over night. It takes years of "formation".
We have to look at the men that John Gatto mentions in historical context. Reading history is very helpful in that regard. For example, it's amazing to read the thoughts of Abigail Adams as a young woman who seems, in our time, mature beyond her years. What about St. Joan of Arc? It is mind-blowing, I agree, but Gatto's attempt to jolt us into reality is also necessary. It's important to understand how far we've strayed as a culture and to understand that all these conveniences and comforts we're all so attached to (myself included) can be detrimental in the formation of our children.
We do have to understand what our children are capable of but we also must realize that they are bound, to a certain degree, by the constraints of their own place in history. Changing our culture is a huge task and doesn't necessarily happen in one generation. I figure my job is to do the best with my kids so that they will do the best with their kids & so on & so forth so that the culture has the potential to become more "normalized" with each successive generation.
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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LeeAnn
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This is a fascinating thread. I don't have much new to add to it but my "yes." The extension of adolescence in our society is mind-boggling. Where was I reading the other day about adults even dressing like toddlers nowadays? Sweatpants and t-shirts and "comfy clothes" in public. (Hey, I own jeans and sweatshirts too. I also squirm.)
My oldest is 11, soon to be 12 in September. There is much she is capable of, if I put it in her hands. But there is also much more in the way of danger in our society that she doesn't understand yet. The children of the past who commanded battle ships at 12 were still supported by experienced and mature men. Have you seen "Master and Commander"? A young boy lieutenant takes command toward the end of the movie, but he is commanding men who know their roles and support him through knowledge of their own place. Not to belittle his role at all; his education and upbringing had prepared him for this moment in a way that the more mature but lower-class sailors didn't. The men accept him as commander because of his class (in part) and his previous bravery and education in a way that it would be impossible to imagine a working-class sailor of 30 years taking command.
Anyhow, I do agree that our teens are more capable of being adults than our culture allows for. Society here simply doesn't support these kind of decisions any longer though. If you allow your 18 year old (gainfully employed) son to marry and he fathers a child or two with his 15 year old wife, almost no one is going to look on them favorably.
Remember the anger at the parents who allowed their daughter to pilot an airplane solo when she crashed and died? I don't know the particulars of that family, but the general talk at the time was "how dare that family make that child grow up and take on adult responsibilities!" Our culture highly favors extended adolescence, even well into middle age!
I think there is some difference though between harshly setting your child against the world ("survive or die, kid!") and the kind of life and families young men who command naval ships at 12 come from--but I think even then, young men who achieved so much so young were exceptional, not the norm. I've been reading a lot of Austen lately. The wealthier you are the longer frivolous and adolescent behavior seem to be the norm. The less wealthy families worked hard to prepare their sons for vocations as soon as possible, whether advanced education or apprenticeship or by purchasing a military commission (not really an option now!).
The weird thing about the current culture, I think, is that it wants to give children all the rights of adults in the sexual arena but no other. Perhaps without other meaningful work or vocation this is the lowest common denominator entertainment of the masses?
Sorry for a long and rambling post. I look forward to reading better articulated opinions than my own! 
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my four children are 17, 15, 11 & 8 - all now attend public school - we read many 4Real recommended books at home
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lapazfarm
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Fascinating thread. I'd love to get a hold of that book.
I think teens are capable of much more than most folks give them credit for. But only if they have been allowed to try things (and sometimes fail, and learn from their successes and failures)with increasing difficulty and level of responsibility from a young age.
Obviously you can't expect a teen who has done nothing more challenging than playing nintendo or taking a spelling test their whole young life, to suddenly captain a ship or run a business or take care of a wife and child.
But if he has been taking on small responsibilities all along, he just may be prepared when that major responsibility comes along, however unexpected it might be.
But in the end,none of us know what we are truly capable of until we are put to the test, correct? I actually have little doubt my 13yo son could captain a ship if it became necessary for him to do so. Perhaps many of our sons would surprise us with what they could do, given the opportunity or the proper motivation. Most of the young men discussed here(Jefferson,Farragut, Boone) took responsibility out of necessity, do-or-die, and that is quite a strong motivator, and one which our sons will likely never face. But what if they did? Would they have what it takes? And just how much responsibility do we as parents have for preparing them for that type of situation? I have no idea.
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Bookswithtea
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I've been thinking about this ever since Laura first posted. I have a son who, given the opportunity, would be training full time (without academics at this point) in a trade, working, and saving to buy land and build his own house and prepare for a wife. His vision, and he's highly motivated. He wants to get on with life and is sick of being stuck in teen-hood expectations. We live near an Amish settlement, where boys have this kind of education and probably do marry earlier. Sometimes I'm jealous.  I feel sad sometimes that he is so held back by our culture. As a parent, it feels like we are trying to break a Chincoteague horse or something like that.
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Barbara C.
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I think Brenda is correct about looking at the historical/cultural context. These extraordinary young men lived at times when there were more clear social, moral, economic, class, and gender distinctions. In our time, some of those have broken down for better or worse.
And then you have to look at each individual culture in and of itself. If you read "Our Babies, Ourselves" it really talks about how American culture puts a real emphasis on individual independence from birth--child from parent, parent from child, person from person--and it is reflected in the normative parenting practices. Whereas other cultures put more emphasis on conformity or interdependence, which is reflected in their parenting practices.
Then you read a book like "Hold Onto Your Kids", and you realize that a lot of the American practices that are supposed to lead to independence really backfire. The author talks about how teenagers often just transfer their dependence from their parents to their peers. The more you try to push that toddler away the more insecure and clingy he becomes. And like LeeAnn asserted, usually these extraordinary young men of past generations were supported from above and below by mature older men. They were less independent and more interdependent within a social system. David H. Albert's talks in one essay about the importance of finding adult mentors for teens in addition to parents in order for teens to achieve true independence and maturity.
And then you think about child/teen stars, and how their parents often confuse mature ability with mature thinking. Often the regular parent thinks the child should be incapable of mature ability but capable of mature thinking when the reality is the opposite. And a lot of parents get caught up in vicariously reliving their own childhood--wanting it to be "better" this time around. These are the parents who are horrified by the idea of homeschooling because then their kids might miss the Prom.
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Barbara
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folklaur
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Just to throw out there - the link i included in the original is to a contemporary story. Gatto fleshes it out more in his book - but it is a "modern" example of a child dropping out of school in 7th grade, working in a garage, and...figuring out - on his own - how to convert traditional gas guzzlers to low emmission/high mileage cars.
He is a millionaire. He is happy and successful. This is his "art" and he is good at it.
so - while i agree with looking at the context of historical figures - what do you do with a modern successful 7th grade drop out? Is it merely a fluke? which of us would be okay with our son saying, at 13, "yeah, I am done with school, okay? I am going to go work in a car garage with pitiful pay."
If they did as he did:
Quote:
| After dropping out of school in the seventh grade, he made a living by buying up totaled cars and making them as good as new. "That," he says, "was my school." |
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in the book, that is not the only contemporary example he gives. so, i can't quite think it is a fluke of the child. it seems to be more a fluke of circumstances that let them do their own things...
Gatto contends in another of his works - "I’ve concluded that genius is as common as dirt. We suppress our genius only because we haven’t yet figured out how to manage a population of educated men and women. The solution, I think, is simple and glorious. Let them manage themselves.”
hhhhhmmmm......
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Barbara C.
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Well, it sounds a lot like the arguments in favor of unschooling. While that boy may have discontinued formal schooling after the 7th grade, he obviously had parents who were willing to give him the freedom and support to freely explore his interests. And with child-labor laws I doubt that he was able to work at the garage for too many hours a week for pay.
Sounds like part of what it comes down it is not just what the teen is capable of but how much of a gamble the parents are willing to take on his future. Just like most of us are afraid of unschooling because "what if" they don't learn everything they need to know I think most of us would allow are children to take such a non-traditional path for fear that it wouldn't work out.
Of course just because that 7th grader had the mature ability to do the work that doesn't necessarily mean that he was mature enough to make good decisions about other things in his life. And maybe he was able to be mature in that area because he had parents who were willing to pick up the slack in other areas. I keep thinking about the theory of multiple intelligences.
One reason that I chose homeschooling was that I liked the idea of my kids having plenty of time to explore what really lights their fire and how they can transform that into financially supporting themselves. I am very intrigued by this book, though. I'll have to add this to my reading list.
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Barbara
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Babs
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I agree with everyone about how different teens today seem from the teens of the past, and I have nothing to add that hasn't been said already. It is fascinating to think about our children doing some of the things children have done in the past. However, I would like to tell you about our experience with our oldest son.
My oldest son is 26 and in medical school. When he was in college he earned 3 degrees in four years, all A's of course. He was an RA, he was in the honors program, he was involved in everything at the Catholic Student Center, he worked for the FDA doing research, etc. Sometimes when my husband and I would be talking to him and his friends, we would just look at each other and know we were both thinking, "how can he/they be so smart and responsible and so, well, dumb!"
We had heard about how a boy's brain isn't fully developed until possibly age 25, I think it is the frontal lobe, which is involved in seeing consequences and it was the only thing that kept our heads from spinning. I have heard it also explains why boy's insurance rates are so high until 25 and why 18 year olds run onto battlefields, while perhaps 40 year olds would be a lot less likely to run onto a battlefield with their buddies at someone else's orders without question.
Our second son is 21 and we sometimes see the same thing with him.
I know our world is completely different. I think maybe one difference is we all rise to the challenges set before us, including having to captain a ship or making sure to hand college papers in on time. Our children are still being educated and are almost never in a real life/death situation at an age when teens of the past would have been apprenticing many, many hours a day and would have had "real" responsibilities for their family's survival.
I am really looking forward to hearing what everyone has to say, as we have been pondering this for several years now.
Barb
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12stars
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My boys are still very little and I am sure that I am not adding anything to this converstaion I was thinking though that many teens have sooo many choices when it comes to their vocations, careers, and life in general. What I am seeing is as someone on here posted there are hardly any adults anymore. To guide our teens into reality. Most of if not all the adults I know live in this nostalgic mindset that they have to recreate what was wonderful when they were children. I know for myself I had to grow up pretty fast as my parents really did not support any inkling toward college and I just did not know what direction to take, so I dropped out.
I think this is the saddest thing ever that our teens are just not trusted.
Like so many also posted I see parents wanting to raise these super kids that 'shine' in everything they do, but it usually it comes at a cost though of their morals and virtues and what follows too many times after the child is turning into a teen the parents stop parenting. That is what I have seen in real life.
Maybe it is all the outside influence of relativism, secular media, and the pressure to focus only on themselves that they also feel unsure of themselves.
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Babs
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Claudia,
I think you are correct that it is so difficult for young people today to not be influenced by the relativism, secular media, and pressure that they are bombarded with all day, every day. Young people today may have a more comfortable life in many, many ways but they have to be tough and stand up to all kinds of horrible "acceptable" behavior that teens in the past may not have had to witness, let alone had to reject when it is presented as perfectly acceptable. But when I look around me and see all of the youth who are living in this time where they have been placed in history and are able to not be "of this world", I see so many reasons to hope.
I wonder if the super kids of today that shine in everything they do are that way because they are using the gifts they were given by God in their lives to the best of their ability, just as the super kids of the past captained ships, ran plantations, raised children as teens, etc. I think it is so important for children to use all of the gifts and graces that have been bestowed on them, and to always discern God's will for them, for whatever he calls them to.
In my experience with my son and his friends, I saw young men who were daily mass attendees, and spent their spare time at the Catholic Student Center, being involved however they could. They spent Friday nights with other Catholic college students hanging out at the local nursing home, gaining a lot of wisdom by just playing cards and listening to the elderly. And although they were intelligent, good kids doing good things, sometimes when you spoke to them you could catch a very fleeting glimpse of a lack of maturity needed to make (and understand the consequences of) decisions. I really believe that in their early twenties, it was just time that was needed.
And I have also seen parents who did not realize that their job is not over just because their child is excelling in some areas. As Barbara stated above, "parents often confuse mature ability with mature thinking." I have never been a believer in the village raising a child, so much as his parents with a backbone doing the job. I think this is a hard time to parent (maybe it always is), and with less support available through the extended family than ever before. One thing that hasn't changed in parenting teens today and teens in the past is our wonderful opportunity and responsibility to raise our children in the Church and to prepare them to make their way to heaven.
God Bless,
Barb
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SuzanneG
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Great discussion, everyone! 
I just moved this thread to the "Philosophy of Education" Forum......Conversation, considerations and questions about the great ideas, curricula and methods that inspire us!!!
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Suzanne in ID
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Gatto's "Weapons of Mass Instruction"
