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Angel
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| Posted: April 29 2010 at 7:50am | IP Logged
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Well, there's a subject line you probably don't see often. But I couldn't figure out how to put my thoughts into words that would fit in the space allotted.
I'm thinking about next year. My ds will technically be 8th grade, but he'll turn 14 in October. I'm leaning toward a 5 yr. high school although who knows how that will translate in the end.
I'm thinking about required work vs. interest driven work and how to maintain a balance.
I'm wondering how much it is necessary to have a teen demonstrate learning: for instance through the use of papers or notebooks or whatever. I do think that writing is a very important skill which shouldn't be neglected, but... what if your teen demonstrates during discussion that all the independent reading he's been doing in history has given him a far, far better historical understanding and base of knowledge than you have? Should there still be some sort of paper or project to "prove" that he knows something, even if he is not keen on doing either?
I very much like (for instance) the way Theresa has set up her marine biology course on her Fieldwork blog, but what I have found is that my ds is more of a reader than a doer. So, instead of having my ds take the lead in doing all sorts of fun work, I often end up wondering: should I *require* these projects (whatever they are) as assignments? If I do that, am I putting him onto the path toward independence or making him more dependent on me to tell him what to do?
Independence in learning (and life) is a trait we want to promote. And for the most part, we do have some very independent learners around here. But, at the end of the year/beginning of the next, I like to question all my assumptions to make sure I'm not assuming something that is holding us back.
So I guess the assumptions I am questioning right now are:
1. Are "extra" assignments really necessary to show learning in areas such as history, literature, etc. or could a teen just read and talk? Will NOT providing these assignments make him more independent?
2. If a teen is required to work to a syllabus, in which he may have input but not the final say, does that really make him less independent?
I've got to get going on the day now, but I'm not really sure that I've managed to articulate this well. Looking forward to your thoughts.
__________________
Angela
Mom to 9, 7 boys and 2 girls
Three Plus Two
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vmalott
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| Posted: April 29 2010 at 8:45am | IP Logged
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Angela,
I've had these same questions myself, esp. the one about the "extra" assignments. I really rely on reading and discussing along w/my high school student. That, I feel, makes many assignments (e.g. those that are provided in a syllabus or curriculum) superfluous. In some instances, I think those assignments are designed for families where the student might be learning information that is unfamiliar to the parent-teacher, so they ensure at least somewhat that some sort of "learning" is taking place. I guess it really boils down to what the student-teacher relationship is like between you and your child.
As for your second question, I see a syllabus as a tool for both of you, and not a master. I don't think working with a required syllabus necessarily makes a student less independent, especially if he has had some say in the course of study and methods of "assessment". It's a road map to help him along in his journey and can be very freeing for you in that "what do we do next?" phase. 
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Valerie
Mom to Julia ('94), John ('96), Lizzy ('98), Connor ('01), Drew ('02), Cate ('04), Aidan ('08) and three saints in heaven
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: April 29 2010 at 8:47am | IP Logged
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Angela, you have articulated your thoughts and concerns beautifully. I get it! I'll be pondering this today and hope to get back to you later...if not, this weekend when I have time to collect and type my thoughts. I look forward to seeing what others think and have experienced.
To flesh out some of your thinking, I have a few questions for you. Are there certain skills that you want your ds to master? In addition to reading (I assume), what are your ds's areas of expertice? What are his main interests? What are his passions? What are his weak areas? Are there any traditional subject areas that he avoids? Do you think that college is in his future?
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
About Me
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Faithr
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| Posted: April 29 2010 at 8:57pm | IP Logged
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For us this issue has depended, in part, on what our child's goal is. If your child is thinking of attending college then I think that some kind of 'product' is necessary. I say this because it will prepare him to respond in writing when he is studying in college. College is hard work and going in with well-honed writing skills will makes things that much easier.
But also, while one might sound very learned in a subject area when having a discussion, it takes a different kind of discipline and much more precision to be able to reflect or analyze on something coherently and in an interesting way in writing. To be a truly literate adult, you need to be able to read, discuss AND write well about an idea or topic.
And thirdly, if your child is preparing for the work force, writing is often a very important part there as well. So I do think in high school, it is necessary to have some kind of physical output to demonstrate learning.
The way I develop these assignments is to talk frankly about several things: 1) the need to become facile in writing (and this only happens with practice) 2)what is expected of other teens the same age in public, private, other home schools. 3) what's the best way to demonstrate what the student is learning. We've done things all sorts of way. Sometimes I make up tests (CM'ish tests with open ended questions) but this is my least favorite as I hate grading them! Other ways were to find essay topics (the student may choose) and have them practice writing short essays. These are worked on until both I and the student are satisfied. I believe in high school one should have to write a couple of research papers at least. Again the student can pick the topic. Another way to show output is to maintain a notebook. All this is done collaboratively with lots of give and take on the student's part. For instance my current 9th grader didn't like a writing program I got him (he will not write!!!! My older two were much more natural writers). Instead now by his design we are doing three things: 1) I am dictating to him each week (it happens to be from St. Francis De Sales Intro to a Devout Life - so he's writing and getting religious instruction!) He wanted to do this to increase his writing speed and also work on spelling and punctuation. 2)Note taking - we've been watching Teaching Co history lectures and he's been taking notes while he watches. And thirdly, every week he has to write some sort of essay. Last week it was a question based on some reading he is doing. This week he got off easy, he has to write a thank you note to someone who taught a short class at 4H LOL! He writes a draft of his essay, I work through it with him and then he writes a final draft.
But I would use your and his imagination, talk about goals, brainstorm, and come up with some kind of plan (which can be changed and developed as you go along)but I definitely think learning is more complete if writing is part of the process.
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: April 30 2010 at 12:39am | IP Logged
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Excellent questions, Angela, worthy of lots of pondering. But here are my first thoughts.
I do not like the idea of extra assignments to "show" or "demonstrate learning" if I can assess that with a simple conversation. To me that is kind of a waste of time and energy for both of us. I think the whole "demonstrate learning" thing is a throwback to the classroom where the teacher of 30 kids just cannot know what each child knows without some sort of assessment tool (test, project, paper, etc).
Being homeschooling Moms we have the advantage of knowing our children well and being very aware of what they know and what they don't without these artificial assessment tools. And if we don't know, we can just ask them!LOL!
The types of assignments you will find me giving (on Fieldwork, for example) are not extras for demonstrating a concept already learned through bookwork, but ones where my son actually learns new concepts by doing the activity.( We are hands-on learners here.)I tend to give these for concepts that lend themselves to this type of learning.
For other subjects I do not expect the same. I do not require book reports because I can easily assess comprehension through discussion. I don't feel like ds has to produce a paper (or notebook page or project, etc) on every topic we cover. Sometimes it is fine for him to just read and learn and enjoy.In fact, this is what he usually does.
If I am concerned about writing, then we do writing and I assess his writing skills that way, not by requiring tons of writing for every single thing he learns about. For my ds that would be a sure recipe for getting him to hate learning. (I know it would kill it for me, too!)
And honestly, even on my Fieldwork blog there are plenty of assignments where I already know my son knows the material and I do not require him to do them. I just have the assignments there for the benefit of others and to form a more complete course. Of course I expect other mothers following along will be doing the same thing with their children, picking and choosing what they need and what they don't.
This is just me, but in some ways, this issue is about trust and respect. To me it feels disrespectful to my son to ask him to do a project simply to demonstrate to me that he knows a concept when he can simply tell me about it. For me, it would show a lack of respect for his intellect and his time to assign this type of busywork. It would be a breach of trust and he would very much resent it.
But that is just the type of relationship we have. Your mileage may vary. 
__________________
Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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Maura in NY
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| Posted: April 30 2010 at 7:49am | IP Logged
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Newbie here, and this is the first discussion I'm launching myself into, so here goes. You should know that we aren't unschoolers, but we aren't "schooly-schoolers", either. We just try to fit our sons' needs -- bolstering the weak spots and celebrating the strengths. We have definite subjects, course plans (devised by me), and a loose schedule,
First, I agree with Faith that it depends what your child's goals are. I'm just going to assume college is in the picture, because at least with my older son (16), that's my vantage point. But I don't think that college preparation has to look like it does in school. Writing letters (personal and business), working in online collaborative writing groups, turning a favorite book into a play, debating on fb about favorite songs, books, etc -- they've developed their own writing. My boys both love to write --- but not for school! And that works for us. Whenever they've had to rise to the occasion for outside requirements, they can. (My older son has written talks to give at his youth group which were well received, and now he is taking a community college History class and receiving great grades on his writing, for example.)
We do grammar (EZ Grammar) through 8th, and writing as a subject in 8th and 9th, using gentle things like The Lively Art of Writing. On the handful of times times per year that I require them to write about what they are reading, I give them a lot of leeway about how they do it. I eschew the dreaded 5-paragraph essay (although I do teach it, have them practice a few, and then tell them to forget it).
Mostly, we read and discuss, and read some more. I give the boys enough paper assignments to make sure they are on track, but they write far more for themselves than they do for me. And, except in the handwriting development stage, I don't give short answer "show what you know" assignments. Those we've always done orally, if I felt they were required for science or history (and we never do them at all for literature).
One note about science -- if college is in the plans, most schools require at least 2 years of science with lab. Now, if your son really didn't want to do lab, you could use a virtual lab or video component for this -- Schools without the resources to do actually labs go this route. We did actual labs for bio and chem. How much did he learn? Hard to say. He learns better by watching/reading/listening; he really just went through the steps as required. He's just not a hands on guy. Another year, he did Environmental Science, with almost no writing. Instead, it involved reading a general text, plus stacks of books about alternative fuel cars, and leading a "green team" group of teens. (They learned how to reduce their family's carbon foot print, reported -- in writing  -- on environmental issues, and went on half a dozen field trips: windfarm, landfill, etc).
My younger son will be an 8th grader next year. I don't know for sure what his high school years will look like. But I know that we'll aim for writing to be just a part of life, not a part of school. Now, if only I could convince them that's true of math!
In the end, like all homeschooling, it depends on your family's goals and your particular children, so of course, this is just my data point (engineering husband).
Peace†,
Maura
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4 lads mom
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| Posted: May 13 2010 at 11:51am | IP Logged
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Angela, I have to run out for yet another doctor’s appt, but I was reading posts as I ate my lunch, and had to reply with this book....
http://www.collegewithouthighschool.com/index.htm
Here is the author’s personal blog, lots of info...
http://www.blakeboles.com/cwhs.htm
After looking through the book, I know I wouldn’t completely embrace everything Mr. Boles speaks about, but it is a lot of good food for thought. He has a great story, at an Ivy League school studying astrophysics, and had an epiphany when he was almost done with his degree about where he was headed......very interesting.
Coming back later, hopefully!
__________________
Mom of four brave lads and one sweet lassie
Scenes From This and That
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: unschooling and high school assignments
