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juliecinci
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This is a silly time for me to begin a new topic of this scale (leaving for Italy on Sat.), but it fits too well with the other discussions. Plus, last time I left town and posted, you guys had the best conversation without me!
Anyway, I wondered if one of your goals (like mine) is to raise kids who think for themselves, who own their ideas and thoughts, who interrogate ideas and evaluate arguments for and against beliefs, values, ideals etc.
As my kids have gotten older, though, I've seen that "independent thinking" means not having *my thinking.* It means that they interrogate my ideas and values and beliefs.
That makes a lot of dispassionate sense when it's a theory about teens in general. Much harder with my own kids.
Example: When my oldest wanted to pierce his ears, I didn't want him to! Yet I had counseled another friend of mine not to stop her son from piercing his ears and dying his hair. I felt magnaimous toward her son, but threatened by the same scenario with my son. Isn't that nuts?
And boys piercing ears isn't even that big a deal today.
I'm beginning to think that the best we can do with our kids to prevent them from being either rebels or automotons is to foster an environment that facilitates lots of cross-examination of ideas. This is actually something I encourage in my writing courses for teens. More than apologetics for what we believe to be true, it's allowing them to be exposed to the "other sides of the argument" from the perspective of someone who holds that view.
My parents were pretty permissive and I continued to make very moral choices without their guidance. My siblings went the other direction. What we all agree that we missed in our teens years were involved parents - parents who wanted to process things with us instead of leaving us to ourselves.
Independent thinking for me growing up meant thinking in a vaccuum. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about involved discussion related to multiple points of view while allowing for the possibility that our kids will draw different conclusions, at least in a few areas.
So what do you think about being an independent thinker? Is it important? Does it seem rebellious? Does the word "independent" mean something negative or positive to you?
Julie
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Julie
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tovlo4801
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Julie,
I think it's a very interesting question. I certainly learned to make decisions in a parental vacuum and I had several moral stumbles along the way. I found my markers for right and wrong from observing those in my community, books and TV.
The thing is I don't really think I'm that independent a thinker. I tend to be insecure in my thought and look for others affirmation that I'm on the right track. I'm sure some of that is personality, but I also think I learned to do that early on because that was my method for figuring out the world. I really had a lack of parental guidance so I had to look at the world around me and try to process it. I was always looking for some sort of outside check to verify that I was headed in the right direction. All too often I was headed in a very wrong direction and all my outside check's were cheering me on. 
I have on the other hand learned to question most everything. I can certainly just take something as fact with out looking any deeper on occasion, but for the most part I'm a skeptical person. I can often hold one viewpoint, but sort of empathetically see the other side too. I think that's important. My oldest son will often just accept without really questioning something that we've told him to be true. I think that's dangerous. I think when you just accept something without really examining it for yourself you can misunderstand the situation. You might also lose empathy for those who hold opposing views. I think it's healthy to be able to look at something from both sides of the issue.
At our local homeschool conference my husband and I went to a presentation by Kolbe Academy. There was some time spent in the presentation explaining why Kolbe chooses some of it's material. Apparently they've been criticized because they have the kids read writings of people coming from non-Catholic and non-Christian perspectives. I would never have seen a problem with that, but I would naturally have assumed they were approaching it the way she explained they do. Kolbe wants kids to look at all the perspectives so that they can truly understand the issue and ultimately (hopefully) be stronger in their Catholic convictions.
I really think there is that empathy component as well. Do I want my child to be one of those people who come off as ignorant because they argue vehemently one side of an argument while revealing in their speech that they've never even really tried to look at the issue from the other side? Absolutely not. I don't think you gain any points with someone who holds an opposing view from your's if you can't honestly say you've even looked at their position. If my child is called to evangelize to those who reject God in some form or another, I hope that he can see things from their point of view enough to have empathy for what they are living.
I also think it's important to have a solid system of standards to refer to in making these examined judgements. A child may occasionally need to mentally step away from that standard in order to see things from another perspective, but if they don't have that strong internal standard of right and wrong they just blow in the wind of varying opinions. I am of the opinion that there is an unchanging base of truth that guides the universe, but there are many ways of expressing that truth. It's important to see that difference. I think kids must always return to that truth when evaluating things, but must be careful not to place non-negotiables where they don't really exist.
What to do if after all that examination they don't end up agreeing with the positions you hold? Honestly that depends for me. If we're talking hairstyle or clothing choices, I suppose that would just boil down to selfishness on my part. I wouldn't want to be judged by other people based on my son's appearance or behavior. That would be one of those battles that you describe where the consequences probably wouldn't be worth it.
If it is about whether to continue to believe in God? Well that's a battle I would want to fight. I certainly hope that he honestly looks at his faith closely and seriously considers for himself if it makes sense. There are certainly different expressions of faith that are acceptable and I'd have to make sure that I wasn't drawing lines where there need be none, but when it's about eternity....
So in answer to your question, I think the kind of thinking that you are describing is essential for a good servant of God in this world.
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momwise
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Julie,
What do you mean in terms of obedience to God? Where does that fit in with the type of "independent thinker" you're talking about? Of course I want my children to resist what is evil and degrading in our culture, see through phoniness, etc. and I consider that independence. But I also hope I am teaching them the greatness type of independence, which comes from abandoning oneself to God.
As far as exposing them to points of view we disagree with, it totally depends on the child's temperament and age. The part of the brain that makes sensible decisions is not well developed until well into the 20's. Each year of maturity brings more ability to clearly distinguish right from wrong.
I don't have any problem protecting a 14 yr. old from something he's not ready to process or protect himself from, knowing that in 2 or 3 or 4 years he'll be ready to stand against it by himself.
To me, independent thinking still needs to have it's end in arriving at the Truth; otherwise there isn't much point to it.
Have a blast in Italy.
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Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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MacBeth
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I think I recall John Taylor Gatto once saying, "Question everything, except your family and God."
Is this a good way to to think about being independent thinkers? Or is the phrase "independent thinker" one overused by those who disagree with those who are conformist?
We are all individuals!
I'm not!
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God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog 
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juliecinci
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Lol! I love that Macbeth. 
Probably critical thinkers might be another way to say it. Or maybe, better, discerning thinkers?
Independent smacks of stridancy, doesn't it?
Interdependence is healthy for relationships. So perhaps the better way to think of it is "integrated thinkers" - Those who can intergrate what they've grown to understand at home and in the faith with what they encounter that is new outside of faith and home.
Does that work better?
What do you think, Gwen? That would keep obedience to God in the picture.
Julie
P.S. I would add that obedience to God is also a choice that has to be made individually, even after modeling and teaching. So in that sense, kids have to come to a place where they know enough to make that choice for themselves. A healthy family life is the fastest way to ensuring that transition.
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ALmom
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I want my children to know, love and serve God. I want them to know the difference between that which is unquestionably true and those areas where we are still seeking the truth (specifics about the scientific, historical, etc.) I want them to know there is such a thing as the absolute truth - things are not just dependent on culture, or time, or place. It is worth searching for this in all humility, aware of the greater knowledge and expertise of others, and of the guiding principles from our Catholic faith which is the guardian of truth.
But always the search is for the truth - not what feels good to me, not what everyone else is saying/doing, not just what is most practical in terms of my own self-interest. And not whoever uses the fanciest and most confusing words - so they have to be able to follow an arguement to its logical conclusion.
In matters of personal decision, I want them to seek out what God wants - but this has to be guided by the principles of our faith. This is the hardest area for me, as a parent. There are times when someone I admire very much has very different judgements about things. People often present prudential judgements as if they were the gospel itself. And of course, policies about movies, T.V. viewing etc. that we as parents have presented to our children are matters of prudential judgement based on principles. I really do want our children to, as they enter adult life, be able to make these kinds of prudential judgements with a reasoned and careful study of the principles involved and the dangers of their own time and place. But part of me is very uncomfortable if they come to a different decision than I do. Is it pride on my part? Of course, a lot depends on the age of the child. This must be why my mom tells me she still has worries and prayers for all of her children though we are all grown and married and living on our own (though as adults, she no longer tells us what to do or offers lots of advice unless asked).
I remember agonizing over what to do about our oldest dd. She wanted to play at Mass for the choir. I wanted her to - and was very happy that she wanted to. However, how do you handle or what do you expect of the child regarding liberties that were being taken with the Lamb of God. As long as we were just in the pew, we simply prayed the appropriate prayer quietly - but if our dd was leading the congregation, how did that shift our responsibility. When we were just in the pew, it wasn't a serious enough matter in our mind and we had no real responsibility in the matter, so we didn't have to rock the boat by bringing it to anyone's attention. Our dd was adament, if she had to say or do anything, she'd just rather not play at Mass. I agonized and agonized over what answer to give her. In my mind, there was greater responsibility here, because of the role she would be playing in the liturgy. But I didn't feel right about laying that on her young shoulders.
In seeking advice, thankfully with a wonderful and understanding priest, he pointed out that this was a prudential judgement, she was the musician, she would have to make the decision about what to do. Of course, I kept coming back with - but we are the parents and we have some responsibility here, too. We finally understood what he was trying to tell us - we, as parents, had to make sure she understood the principles involved (ie the Lamb of God is not a prayer that can be altered, we have to weigh several factors in deciding whether or not to bring it up :Is it my responsibility - directly or indirectly, How serious a matter is it and Is the situation likely to improve if I say something. Finally, we arrived at a place of peace. We spoke with her about all these things and left the final decision up to her (she was of course 16/17 so that makes a difference). She told me she was not going to bring it up. I was disappointed but listened to her and found that as she explained her decision - she really was right. If she had gone in there without ever having played at Mass and started telling them (even subtly) what was incorrect, it would do no good and she would be viewed as a know-it-all. If she went in there, followed the direction of the music director and did a good job playing music, she might earn some respect and have more influence down the road. (An aside - I don't know what happened, but no one ever asked her to play that particular Lamb of God so the issue never even came up).
So in the sense that our children, can discern a false arguement, recognize untruth disguised as truth or compassion or whatever else or be able to dig deeply in the natural sciences, history, etc. to learn more about God and his creation and do this with humble recognition of the expertise of others, the experts and their own limits, the principles of the faith, and their own unique gifts of thought and wonder, then, Yes, be independent thinkers. If it means seriously weighing what is the better way - what is the decision God wants me to make in this pracitical matter - yes, I do want her to know how to come to an answer through prayer, honest evaluation in light of Catholic doctrine and not just because peers or someone else is saying this is good. Again, yes, I want her to be free of pressures in her thinking not related to the ultimate truth of God.
To arrive at this point does not mean I have to present them with error. They need to contemplate the true, the good, the beautiful and error will stand out more starkly. They'll run into plenty of error without trying to find it or present it. When they are younger, I protect them from error so error and truth don't get mixed up in their young and vulnerable minds. But, yes we do use less than perfect texts, books, etc. Yes and we help them to see some of the errors and deceptions that are parts of these. I may have to answer a lot of questions with I don't know. I will resist jumping on a bandwagon just because it is popular and I despise a text that ignores evidence just to present a particular agenda. We have used these kinds of texts at times but because they were the best that we could find for the time being and we hopefully balanced them with lots of good reading and we aknowledged these problems in the text even when we weren't sure what the real truth was.
Janet
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momwise
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MacBeth wrote:
We are all individuals!
I'm not!
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Great MacBeth!
I had a post nearly done and lost it fiddling around.
Anyway, I'm sorry to be a pain Julie, but integrated thinker doesn't work for me. I don't want my kids to integrate what they learn from the Church and at home so much as I want them to take what they've learned and stand up to what's false as well as bring the Good News to the blind. Well...I guess we're back to independent huh?
You said: "As my kids have gotten older, though, I've seen that 'independent thinking' means not having *my thinking.* It means that they interrogate my ideas and values and beliefs. "
This really depends upon the personality of the child. All children have to eventually decide what they think on their own. Some children will have a problem owning the same values as mom and dad and others won't.
Maybe the exchange of ideas you're talking about is similar to the "Socratic method" of education? There again, the method is to question but the goal is to arrive at the truth.
I've probably made enough of a mess of this topic for now 
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Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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tovlo4801
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momwise wrote:
| As far as exposing them to points of view we disagree with, it totally depends on the child's temperament and age. The part of the brain that makes sensible decisions is not well developed until well into the 20's. Each year of maturity brings more ability to clearly distinguish right from wrong. |
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Gwen,
I was debating about even asking this question because I didn't want it to sound disagreeable. I just keep twirling this comment around in my head and I just need to know. Where does this information about the brain processing sensible decisions only once they reach the 20's come from? I've just never heard this and if I understood this better it might change my perspective. Thanks in advance for helping me understand this better.
God Bless,
Richelle
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juliecinci
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Running out the door, but the link I posted in the other thread that goes to Dr. Bradley's site is where I heard of the study. He talks about it at length in his book Yes, Your Teen is Crazy which is why he uses that title. He isn't meaning to insult, but is exposing the most recent surveys that show that the frontal cortex doesn't finish developing until the twenties.
During the teen years, the kinds of conversations that help kids to make connections between actions, ideals and choices is what facilitates growth.
His book is terrific for what I consider a moderate approach - not permissiveness, but a genuine relational model that takes into account parental maturity and the teen's need to be heard.
Julie
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Julie
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tovlo4801
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Thanks Julie!
Maybe it won't change my perspective.
I've been loving the approach to relationship with your child that all you guys have been sharing in these three recent teen threads. I've been drinking it in and wishing for more so that I can get a stonger and stronger picture of how to work on my relationship with my budding teen son. I'm so excited that this piece of information that was worrying me will still fit right in with this way of approaching things. I've put the book on hold at my library. I just wish I had about 20 more hours each day to read all the great things that I need to find out more about.
Thanks everyone for having such great discussions. I learn so much from all of you.
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juliecinci
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momwise wrote:
I had a post nearly done and lost it fiddling around.
Anyway, I'm sorry to be a pain Julie, but integrated thinker doesn't work for me. <snip>
You said: "As my kids have gotten older, though, I've seen that 'independent thinking' means not having *my thinking.* It means that they interrogate my ideas and values and beliefs. "
This really depends upon the personality of the child. All children have to eventually decide what they think on their own. Some children will have a problem owning the same values as mom and dad and others won't. |
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Yes, and I didn't necessarily mean that they would go a different route. I meant that they would come to the place where the values and beliefs they have feel like their own, rather than being mere copies of their parents. Does that make more sense?
"Integrated" for me meant that they would be able to move between ideas without being unfamiliar or ignorant of those that they choose not to hold for themselves.
But that word probably doesn't work. I love words so let me think on it... Maybe I'll get a good Italian one!
Julie
P.S. What about "investigative" thinker....?
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momwise
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tovlo4801 wrote:
| Where does this information about the brain processing sensible decisions only once they reach the 20's come from? I've just never heard this and if I understood this better it might change my perspective. |
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Hi Richelle,
It comes from an article (I'll find out where) I read. I got it from a friend of mine who speaks to teens about chastity. It is *extremely* interesting! The part of the brain responsible for congnitive thinking skills is not fully developed until the early 20's; it's based on a research study. If I can't find my copy I'll ask my friend about it but she's out of town until mid-July.
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Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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momwise
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Oops
I didn't finish reading to the end of the page before I posted. Julie answered that almost exactly the same I'm wondering if the research came out of the book. Or maybe the book was written because of the research?
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Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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momwise
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juliecinci wrote:
| Yes, and I didn't necessarily mean that they would go a different route. I meant that they would come to the place where the values and beliefs they have feel like their own, rather than being mere copies of their parents. Does that make more sense |
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Oh absolutely. Everyone arrives at that point and I do want that for my children. There is a book by Msgr. Guisani(sp?)called The Risk of Education. I went to a talk by Msgr. Albacete at our seminary once and he explained that the process of going from practicing your parents' faith to owning your faith happens as a result of true education (of course I haven't taken the time to read the book yet; Msgr. is hard to read!) Part of that process for some individuals is testing God's love. They have to experience that it exists for themselves.
Part of my problem with these terms comes from my dc's years in p.s. The goals as expressed in the report cards and other communication to parents were"developing lifelong learners" and "independent thinkers." This of course meant being thouroughly indocrinated and unable to recognize truth by graduation time 
juliecinci wrote:
| I love words so let me think on it... Maybe I'll get a good Italian one! |
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O.K. Ciao!!
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Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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juliecinci
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momwise wrote:
Oops
I didn't finish reading to the end of the page before I posted. Julie answered that almost exactly the same I'm wondering if the research came out of the book. Or maybe the book was written because of the research?
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The book was written because of the research. I read a few articles on the study too so there's lots of info going around.
Back to packing!
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tovlo4801
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Gwen,
I'd actually still love it if you could find the source where you heard it too. Thanks!
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momwise
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tovlo4801 wrote:
Gwen,
I'd actually still love it if you could find the source where you heard it too. Thanks!
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I've looked and looked and can't find my article (we moved in Sept. and there's a good chance it disappeared into thin air). I really want to keep it so I'll get a new copy when my friend returns from vacation and I'll try to remember to forward it to you.
In the meantime I found something very similar here.
Here's something relevant to my previous post:
"Giedd's results suggest that development in the frontal lobe continues throughout adolescence and well into the early twenties ... Scientists previously thought that gray matter production and development only occurred during the first 18 months of life ... The fact that the decision making centers of the brain continue to develop well into the early twenties could mean that troubled teenagers still have the time as well as the physiology to learn how to control their impulsive behaviors."
__________________
Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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tovlo4801
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Gwen,
Thanks for the link. It's very interesting! Please do pass on the article you originally read if you eventually locate a copy. I'm curious about all of this.
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momwise
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tovlo4801 wrote:
| Please do pass on the article you originally read if you eventually locate a copy. I'm curious about all of this. |
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Richelle,
I had my friend send the article and it is the exact one I linked above!
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Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: What is an independent thinker?
