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Blestwith8
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It has been an interesting journey home for me. Much has changed in my Church since I left some 13 years ago. Some seems fine others leave me scratching my head. Also, things I did not question as a young Catholic are giving me pause now. Let me say in no way way do I want to or intend to offend anyone with these questions. I am reading and praying and need feedback from you all.
My concerns;
I cannot have my children Baptised until they complete a year of Catechism (a school year). Evidently because they are all over 5 years old they must receive some instruction. Some Diocese have a short class parents and older children attend. Ours does not. The Spokane Diocese is not Parishoner friendly. The Bishop was a big wig on the Bishops Forum in the investigation into child molestation and there is definetly some tension there, considering Spokane was one of the worst in that area.
Unfortunately the Priest who feels this way, (not our Pastor) is also a the Canon Lawyer who will be looking at my Annulment from my 1st marriage. So I am not stepping on toes there. UGH Politics!
My next concern is that they Confirm 7yearolds! I realize we are a rural Parish. Still 7 is far too young to Confirm a child. I also know Byzantine Catholics do it all in one fell swoop at infant baptism, I guess I just feel that no child can comprehend what comnfirmation means until at leat 12 or 13. I was actually 17.
A lot of the reverence is gone. We have a good solid Pastor, however he Pastors no less than 5 rural churches! Much of the real day to day stuff is done by dedicated Lay people. God Bless them, not complaining about them at all. I just womder where this new "casualness" comes from.
By now you may have figured out that I am looking tentatively at the Traditonal Catholic Church. Oh I know they do not recognize the Pope,none since Pius anyway. WOW Traditional Catholics I know have made some hugely Anti-Semetic statements. I also do not believe the Traditional Catholic Church is THE only way to heaven. But they do have that reverence and continuity that the new Church seems to have let slip away. So I am peeking in at them. We have Mt.St. Michaels' here and I can easily get information.
I feel so called by both the Lord and the Blessed Mother to be here. To be home. I just did not realize how much Home had changed.
Another question/statement-Since Vaticanll was put into stone in what 1967, women have not worn headcoverings to Mass. Being a child of the 60's it was more like hte early 70's before we stopped. I just recently found out that Vaticanll NEVER said for women to stop wearing headcoverings, that was left to the Bishops, and I guess the Amercian Bishops decided we did not need to, Hmmmm, I really find that one hard.
I grew up in an era where on vacation we would visit Cathedrals in different cities. I remember my Mother Bobby Pinning Kleenex to my head. LOL It is just respect for God. My Parish as a young child was the Mission in San Juan Capistrano CA. For years they had a basket of Mantilla's in the foyer for women to put on.
So, yes I am seriously praying and considering being the 2nd of 2 women to cover during Mass.
Understand some of these might seem as minor concerns to you, but surpised me. Please offer any advice or support or information that will help. Thank you all.
Again, I am reading and praying.
__________________
Connie, Wife of Jim Mom to ! Kate-29, Adam 27 (Jessica) Jimmy and Josh-12yo, Molly-11yo, Steven 10yo,Susie-9yo and Thomas-7yo.
Grandma to Peter born 3/21/09
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CatholicMommy
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Connie,
If you believe that Benedict is the Pope, I highly recommend you veer away from sedevacantist parishes. There are many lovely Traditional Latin Mass parishes that are in full line with the Catholic Church, but will not condemn the current Pope.
But that is the question you have to answer (re: the Papal matter)....
Just my two cents!
__________________
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JennGM
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| Posted: June 02 2009 at 10:40am | IP Logged
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It's so wonderful to see your journey! I hope I can answer a few of your questions/concerns.
Blestwith8 wrote:
My concerns;
I cannot have my children Baptised until they complete a year of Catechism (a school year). Evidently because they are all over 5 years old they must receive some instruction. |
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I do think this is standard, but I'm sure it is hard to have to wait so long. Are you just frustrated, or are you worried that the instruction might not be great?
Blestwith8 wrote:
| My next concern is that they Confirm 7yearolds! I realize we are a rural Parish. Still 7 is far too young to Confirm a child. I also know Byzantine Catholics do it all in one fell swoop at infant baptism, I guess I just feel that no child can comprehend what comnfirmation means until at leat 12 or 13. I was actually 17. |
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It's not just parishes, but dioceses are moving into this direction. My simple answer, and I know this has been brought up before, is that really no one can comprehend what is confirmation. But it's the graces of the Sacrament that gives them this knowledge and strength to become soldiers of Christ. I personally think that formation in this country has been putting the cart before the horse. We understand after we receive the graces, not vice versa. And some of the catechesis can continue after Confirmation.
But I do understand that sometimes we like the way we did it.
Blestwith8 wrote:
A lot of the reverence is gone. We have a good solid Pastor, however he Pastors no less than 5 rural churches! Much of the real day to day stuff is done by dedicated Lay people. God Bless them, not complaining about them at all. I just womder where this new "casualness" comes from.
By now you may have figured out that I am looking tentatively at the Traditonal Catholic Church. Oh I know they do not recognize the Pope,none since Pius anyway. WOW Traditional Catholics I know have made some hugely Anti-Semetic statements. I also do not believe the Traditional Catholic Church is THE only way to heaven. But they do have that reverence and continuity that the new Church seems to have let slip away. So I am peeking in at them. We have Mt.St. Michaels' here and I can easily get information.
I feel so called by both the Lord and the Blessed Mother to be here. To be home. I just did not realize how much Home had changed. |
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I'll be praying for your decision. I'll simply say that we don't necessarily choose our Faith because we like a particular priest, the great sermons, the fabulous community, even things like music and smells and bells. Since we are material beings these things do fill a need, but we shouldn't make decisions based on feelings. Being tied with Rome is more important to me than anything else.
Blestwith8 wrote:
| Another question/statement-Since Vaticanll was put into stone in what 1967, women have not worn headcoverings to Mass. Being a child of the 60's it was more like hte early 70's before we stopped. I just recently found out that Vaticanll NEVER said for women to stop wearing headcoverings, that was left to the Bishops, and I guess the Amercian Bishops decided we did not need to, Hmmmm, I really find that one hard. |
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It's not Vatican II. The revised Canon Law of 1983 did not repeat the law. In that case, it means you may wear headcoverings, it's not an abolished practice, but it's also not law anymore. So if you feel comfortable having your head covered, by all means do it. Many ladies here do it.
Hope that helps a bit. Prayers for you, because I know there's so much to sift and decide.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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sarahb
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Im not sure why your children should wait a year before being baptized. That seems odd. Why would they with hold this grace?
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Mackfam
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Hi Connie,
I'm going to try to take a stab at your questions. You bring up many good ones, and I know it all seems so overwhelming at first. I'll try to take them one at a time.
blestwith8 wrote:
| I cannot have my children Baptised until they complete a year of Catechism (a school year). |
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It is good to offer instruction to older children being baptized, and because the older child has attained the age of reason that is generally why parishes are placing emphasis on that catechesis time. But I empathize with your desire to avoid a long wait. There is support for offering the sacrament to children without undue impediment. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says this:
CCC #1261 wrote:
| "All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism." |
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In speaking of faith and baptism the Catechism says,
CCC #1253 wrote:
| "The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop." |
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This is something to be discussed with your husband and if you decide to do so, then respectfully and charitably discussed with your parish priest to see if there is a possibility of an exception. I would pray that there could be an acceptable outcome that would result in both sides understanding each other better.
The Church is a gentle Mother who recognizes her children while they are being formed, but before they are baptized. Holy Mother Church offers her assurances that by your desire (Baptism of Desire), she now recognizes the children as being baptized by desire. It is important to remember that "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His Sacraments"(paragraph 1257 of the CCC). You can move forward in peace allowing for their year of formation knowing that their Salvation is not in question. Here's what the Catechism says specifically about this:
CCC #1249 wrote:
| "Catechumens are already joined to the Church, they are already of the household of Christ, and are frequently already living a life of faith, hope, and charity. With love and solicitude mother Church already embraces them as her own." |
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blestwith8 wrote:
| My next concern is that they Confirm 7yearolds! |
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I don't see a problem with this. Read through the Catechism on Who Can Receive the Sacrament of Confirmation.
CCC #1306-09 wrote:
Every baptized person not yet confirmed can and should receive the sacrament of Confirmation.123 Since Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist form a unity, it follows that "the faithful are obliged to receive this sacrament at the appropriate time,"124 for without Confirmation and Eucharist, Baptism is certainly valid and efficacious, but Christian initiation remains incomplete.
1307 For centuries, Latin custom has indicated "the age of discretion" as the reference point for receiving Confirmation. But in danger of death children should be confirmed even if they have not yet attained the age of discretion.125
1308 Although Confirmation is sometimes called the "sacrament of Christian maturity," we must not confuse adult faith with the adult age of natural growth, nor forget that the baptismal grace is a grace of free, unmerited election and does not need "ratification" to become effective. St. Thomas reminds us of this:
Age of body does not determine age of soul. Even in childhood man can attain spiritual maturity: as the book of Wisdom says: "For old age is not honored for length of time, or measured by number of years. "Many children, through the strength of the Holy Spirit they have received, have bravely fought for Christ even to the shedding of their blood.126
1309 Preparation for Confirmation should aim at leading the Christian toward a more intimate union with Christ and a more lively familiarity with the Holy Spirit - his actions, his gifts, and his biddings - in order to be more capable of assuming the apostolic responsibilities of Christian life. To this end catechesis for Confirmation should strive to awaken a sense of belonging to the Church of Jesus Christ, the universal Church as well as the parish community. The latter bears special responsibility for the preparation of confirmands.127
1310 To receive Confirmation one must be in a state of grace. One should receive the sacrament of Penance in order to be cleansed for the gift of the Holy Spirit. More intense prayer should prepare one to receive the strength and graces of the Holy Spirit with docility and readiness to act.1 |
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Father Hardon defines the "age of discretion" (emphasis mine):
Quote:
| Sometimes refers to the age at which a person reaches adulthood and can make lifetime decisions, especially regarding ones state of life. But more commonly it is the age when a child is capable of making free acts of the will and therefore becomes morally responsible for his actions. This was St. Pius X's understanding as regards the age for receiving the sacraments of penance and Holy Communion. In general, it is about seven years of age. |
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blestwith8 wrote:
| A lot of the reverence is gone |
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There is certainly a sad loss of reverence in front of Our Lord, present in the Most Blessed Sacrament. There are two options here. Work from within, or seek a more reverent parish. I cannot tell you what to do here, but I can say that I have seen some extraordinary families working from within parishes to restore and foster reverence for the supernatural.
Regarding a traditional Mass and parish, I would say that Our Lord's promise to safeguard the Church requires us to be within His fold, thus faithful to the Magisterium, and obedient to the Vicar of Christ. There are many Catholic churches now offering the Latin Mass - completely faithful to the Magisterium and obedient to Our Holy Father, particularly after the Holy Father's Motu Proprio.
Regarding headcoverings before Our Lord - this is a discipline, not a dogma. If you feel called to cover for Mass, then do so, not out of a desire or worry to stand out, but as a way of showing reverence to Our Lord present in the Most Blessed Sacrament and recognition for the authority in place over you. A headcovering can be a blessing to the wearer in its outward sign of an interior disposition.
I pray some of this helps.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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Blestwith8
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I do understand the instruction before BAptism. I reaize now that when I had my older children Baptised they were already in Catholic School so the Baptism was almost as soon as I asked.
My covering my head is between myself and the Lord. I am looking seriously at this. As Prostestants my husband and I looked at covering all the time. He felt it was unecessary, but maybe for prayer. I feel called to do so out of reverence to the Lord. Whether soemone else does or not is not my concern. I was curious as to why the Church abandoned the practice. Seems sad, so many things that added to the reverence of Catholicism have been lost.
I would love to find a Latin Mass locally that is not part of the Traditional Movement. I have no desire to succeed from the post Vaticanll Church. I am not at all certain why they have, though I have heard several reasons.
Thanks ladies for your help. Keep it coming I really appreciate it.
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MaryM
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As a matter of clarification, there are a wide variety of groups within those that embrace the traditional aspects of the Church worship and liturgy, some in communion with the Church and her Magisterium, others outside of that communion. Sedevacantists (“empty chair”) are those who have not recognized the Popes since 1958 and believe the Chair of Peter to be vacant currently. They are one type of group but do not represent all groups with traditional liturgical preferences.
As stated in the About Us section “On Matters of Faith”, the 4Real message board is a ministry to serve Catholic parent educators and friends. Our management is loyal to the Roman Pontiff and the bishops in union with him.
We could not recommend attending a Catholic Church - traditional or otherwise - that does not recognize the Magisterium of the Church as valid. Fortunately, since the Motu Proprio, there are more and more options becoming available for those who desire to celebrate the Tridentine Mass – ones that are in union with the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.
When topics or questions of this nature arise here or in other threads, we (management) will do our best to be an example of the fullness of our Faith, and if we need words to clarify, we will turn to the Catechism of the Catholic Church or other authoritative pronouncements of the Church in order to answer questions from a Catholic perspective.
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Our Domestic Church
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Blestwith8
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Some days I feel like i have more questions than answers. Being a cradle Catholic I took so much for granted. Seem the converts have an edge there. lol
I am back reading the Catechism and many other books and pamphlets. Can you believe I attended a Catholic (albeit Jesuit) University and know so little. Shame on me!
__________________
Connie, Wife of Jim Mom to ! Kate-29, Adam 27 (Jessica) Jimmy and Josh-12yo, Molly-11yo, Steven 10yo,Susie-9yo and Thomas-7yo.
Grandma to Peter born 3/21/09
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LisaR
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Connie, everyone has had such wonderful answers, I'll just add that you have my prayers!
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
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Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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Blestwith8
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Prayers are the best LisaR thanks!
I am looking into a Church in Spokane that says the Latin Mass ala pre Vatican ll but recognizes the Pope. The problem is the drive is 30 miles. UGH. Likely I will go to a daily 8am mass once in a while. I really do like my new Parish and so many people I have met. I just never realized how many things had changed!
I appreciate your wonderful answers and please be patient with me as more may be coming. I am ashamed I have forgotten or was so ignorant of so much. Perhaps if I had not been so ignorant I would have never left!
You ladies are wonderful!
__________________
Connie, Wife of Jim Mom to ! Kate-29, Adam 27 (Jessica) Jimmy and Josh-12yo, Molly-11yo, Steven 10yo,Susie-9yo and Thomas-7yo.
Grandma to Peter born 3/21/09
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guitarnan
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Connie, I think it's wonderful that you are taking your faith so seriously and asking these important questions. Don't be ashamed - after 20+ years of various types of parish ministry (including 2 years as a DRE), I can assure you that many, many Catholics have similar questions!
I think, from what you've said, you'll find a lot of joy in attending a traditional Latin Mass when it's feasible for you to do so. I also think the head covering decision is yours alone - we have very few people who cover in my parish, but we do have ever-increasing reverence for the Eucharist and sacramentals, thanks to our last two associate pastors, so I think we'll see head coverings returning in the near future. (I, too, remember kleenex and bobby pins!)
The Catechism is a beautiful book, full of rich language and amazing truths. Reading it will help you so much. Ask the saints to help you through their prayers - and take some time to get to know our newest saints, too (Padre Pio, so holy...St. Gianna Molla, who knows all about putting motherhood first...St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein), who applied her brilliant mind to discovering philosophical truths and found the Catholic Church...). These dear friends will pray for you if you ask for their intercession. They know all about questions and trials and wondering and everything you're going through.
I'm praying for you, too!
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Stacy Y
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Hi Connie, I'm a convert who just came into the church.. my oldest daughter was of age when I came in, and my priest actually requested TWO years of RCIA (starting now) before she could be baptized. I went to another parish, more conservative, latin mass, etc... and the priest agreed to baptize her if I taught her at home over the course of a month. I ordered the Baptism Set from Our Father's Houseand went through the four lessons with her, and she passed his quiz with flying colors. Maybe you could make a similar request of your priest? Ask him what your children need to know, prepare them yourself at home, and go from there....
Here's a website of churches (in line with the magisterum) that offer latin mass. Maybe you have one close by? God Bless, Stacy
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Mackfam
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Stacy Y wrote:
| Here's a website of churches (in line with the magisterum) that offer latin mass. Maybe you have one close by? God Bless, Stacy |
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Stacy - that's a really helpful link!!! Thank you for adding that! I'm bookmarking it! 
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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Blestwith8
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Thanks Stacy!
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: A Revert with Questions.
