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teachingmyown
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Is anyone familiar with this school?
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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Dawn
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Hi Molly,
I have used Oak Meadow in the past. It is a "Waldorf-inspired" homeschool curriculum. I used it (loosely) for my oldest when he was first-third grades. What grade level would you be looking at? 
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teachingmyown
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I was looking at high school.
Is there anything anti-Catholic about it?
What were your impressions of it, overall?
Thanks!
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In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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Dawn
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Well, we only got so far as 3rd grade so I can't tell you much about high school. Have you seen their website?
I really liked Oak Meadow and I never found anything anti-Catholic in it. As far as I could ever tell, they don't address religion at all in their curriculum (at least not in the younger grades). It is presented purely as an educational approach, inspired by the Waldorf curriculum.
(A bit of background ~ Waldorf schools were founded by Rudolf Steiner whose philosophy/religion was something called anthroposophy; I honestly can't tell you much about it. It is my understanding that though the teachers are taught the philosophy, the schools and students are not to be exposed directly to it. Here's an article discussing the connection with Christianity and here's a new website by a Catholic woman whose homeschooling is Waldorf-inspired: Waldorf Education for Christians.)
In the younger grades OM has a very gentle approach to academics - nature study, handcrafts, storytelling, fairy tales, math games and stories, creative arts and music. But I am afraid I am probably not answering your questions Molly, as you are looking at high school.  I will say I never heard anyone displeased with OM, and lots of people use it that don't buy into the Waldorf approach.
Hope that helps, if only a little.
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teachingmyown
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I was wondering if someone can explain "Waldorf" education for me. I thought I had seen it discussed before but didn't come up with much when I searched.
Dawn, thanks for your input. I did look at their website but still didn't really get a clear picture of their philosophy. 
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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mumofsix
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Molly, I recall Steiner being discussed on the CCM list in the past: perhaps you could do a search. I know that anthroposophy has its foundation in the occult, and for that reason alone I would not touch it personally. Unfortunately I do not have any details, but I do think a search on CCM might reveal some.
Jane.
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Lissa
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I think I was one of the ones involved in that CCM discussion a few yrs back. I was attracted to Waldorf for its gentleness and emphasis on arts & crafts, but when I researched the philosophy behind it I was in for a shock. As Jane says, its roots are occult indeed. Steiner was a nutcase, in my opinion.
In Waldorf schools, the Steiner philosophies provide the basis for everything that happens, and the children and their parents are very subtly indoctrinated. (Good friends of mine experienced this right here in our little town at the local Waldorf school.) There's a lot of good info at Waldorf Critics.
But like Dawn, I have enjoyed many of the toys & crafts from the Magic Cabin catalog...the tree blocks, the tomten dolls with their little tree-branch furniture, the dollmaking kits and modeling beeswax and watercolor painting. All of that crafty stuff exists on its own, of course, independently of Steiner philosophy. We can teach our children to knit without believing we're aiding them in untangling the strands of their karma...  And I think there is something to be learned from the emphasis on gentleness and maintaining a peaceful rhythm in the day.
Oak Meadow's curriculum is modeled after the scope & sequence of Waldorf, but it isn't Waldorf per se. There are faint traces of anthroposophy in some of the teacher materials though. I do think you can use Oak Meadow materials without straying into Steinerism, but it helps to be educated about what Steiner actually taught. (And also it's easy to incorporate the elements that appeal to you—the painting or whatever—into another curriculum or approach.) Wish I had time to do this more justice here, but I'm in a mad rush this morning. One quick example is the wet-on-wet painting—in Waldorf this is presented according to a very rigid sequence: certain colors in certain grades only (first graders being still in the "dreamy" stage are not allowed red paint, which might prematurely jar them out of their dreaminess) and the whole wet-on-wet technique prevents nasty sharp edges, everything is a soft dreamy blur—that sort of nonsense. It has to do with an anthroposophist belief in reincarnation and karma, very complicated. Oak Meadow introduces wet-on-wet painting at the same pace (first yellow and blue, red only much later) but doesn't go into the origin of the technique. But of course in your own home, no one is binding you to the sequence, so you look at the syllabus and say, Oh, we're going to paint today, and your six-year-old reaches for the red and of course you're fine with that!
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Dawn
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Lissa wrote:
| I was attracted to Waldorf for its gentleness and emphasis on arts & crafts, but when I researched the philosophy behind it I was in for a shock. |
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Lissa, you said it all so well, and it sounds like our experience with waldorf was similar. Loved OM - loved the elements of Waldorf education (i.e. beeswax, finger knitting, fairy tales, etc.) - but when I realized there was this whole bizarre back story to it, I backed off. Then I realized Steiner (who was indeed a nut) doesn't *own* all those elements.
Lissa wrote:
| I do think you can use Oak Meadow materials without straying into Steinerism, but it helps to be educated about what Steiner actually taught. (And also it's easy to incorporate the elements that appeal to you—the painting or whatever—into another curriculum or approach.) |
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Agreed. I know I can take ideas I like and not have anything to do the rest. And much of what I liked about OM crossed over with CM - the gentle approach, the wholesome lifestyle, the handcrafts, the nature.
Part of the problem with OM for us was an oldest child who taught himself to read at 4 1/2, who was hungry to learn learn learn - not the classic "dreamy" Waldorf child! So we looked at Classical for a while and friends laughed at me that I could go from one end of the spectrum to the other! But that's the beauty of home education - you really can tailor it to make it your own.
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hylabrook1
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I don't know the "true depth"/(false depth) of Steiner's world view. I read some articles about it on an anti-cult site at one point and can't remember everything. The one thing that stuck out as particularly bizarre, though, was the function of the tomtens in teaching the children. In pure Waldorfesque they are known as "gnomes" and serve an interesting way of handling moral development. Since the child isn't supposed to become polluted by a view of himself as "wrongdoer", he is taught to attribute his unacceptable choices (mistakes, sins?) to the gnomes. "The gnomes did it"
I just thought that was interesting. But I completely agree with what Lissa and Dawn have said -- the OM curriculum is a good source of lovely, gentle ideas. I doubt that the harm that could potentially come from Steiner's perspective would be furthered by those of us who are not indoctrinated along anthroposophist lines.
Peace,
Nancy
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Cheryl M.
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I always liked some of the natural Waldorf-type toys and such, but was always uncomfortable with Mr. Steiner and his ideas. I did have my dad build my daughter a set of the playstands (much less expensive than Magic Cabin Dolls) and set those up in our playroom with the little baskets of playstuff, doll bed and doll, all covered with the drapey coverings. It was loads of fun, imaginary play. Someday, hopefully I'll have a little granddaughter and will set those playstands up and have fun again with them.
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donnalynn
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Hello - just joined the forums here - I have 4 children and have always homeschooled - I started out homeschooling because I desperately wanted to send my children to a Waldorf school but we were unable to. I studied anthroposophy for about 10 years - elements will always resonate with me as I see a lot of the developmental aspects in my own children. I am looking at following MA for next year and I do love being Catholic. So just thought I'd pass on a few comments -
Oak Meadow, among Waldolf homeschoolers is not considered very Waldorf - it was more so at one time but even then it was only considered to loosley follow a Waldorf curriculum up to third grade. I never used this curriculum myself.
I would not go to Waldorf Critics for honest information about Waldorf Education - if anthroposphy could be even be loosely considered a cult - it's not a very good one - encouraging and demanding one to exercise a person's own thinking - but like all movements it does have those who use it with a fundamentalist mentality. Waldorf Ed also suffers from a lack of adequately trained teachers - misunderstandings about the application of Waldorf Ed abound even within the movement itself. Going to Waldorf Critics for info on Waldorf would be like sending a someone to a site like Traditio for information on catholicism.
Donna
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lapazfarm
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I know nothing about Waldorf, but I think you make an excellent point about going to the source for information on any philosphy or religion. I think of it as akin to my fundamentalist friends saying "well, my preacher says that Catholics believe so and so." My response is always "Why would you go to a Baptist preacher to learn about Catholicism? Go to a Priest!"
So, though I cannot say I agree or disagree about your points regarding Waldorf, I can say that I agree with learning from primary source material!
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teachingmyown
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Thanks Donna, that is definitely helpful. As is so often the case, a person's perspective can really color how they portray someone else's philosophy. This is true of those who claim CM was anti-Catholic and probably true to some extent with the way people view Waldorf Ed. And the further we get from the "source" the less it is understood.
I say this only on a philosophical level, as I have no personal experience with Waldorf. I certainly respect the opinions of others who have posted here as well, but am glad to hear you point of view and keep that in consideration.
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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hylabrook1
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Donna -
Thanks for sharing more complete information on Waldorf/Steiner. The online reading I had done was written by someone who may have experienced things as he wrote them at the hands of someone else who did not completely understand the underlying philosophy.
I agree that the things I have seen in catalogues are beautiful, gentle-looking and appealing.
Peace,
Nancy
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donnalynn
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Just wanted to be clear that Steiner's writings would be quite problematic for faithful Catholics - Steiner's worldview is very...er.. unusual to put it mildly!
And generally I would not recommend a Waldorf School especially today when so many of the lovely Christian traditions that used be a hallmark of a Waldorf school are being lost. I am now very grateful that I didn't have the opportunity to send my children to a Waldorf school as the opportunity to homeschool eventually led me back to the faith of my childhood.
I still use some of my craft books and books of verses and puppet plays and things like that. But I totally respect those who don't want anything to do with Waldorf Ed considering Steiner's involvment with Freemasonary and such.
Donna
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Elizabeth
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I spent a semester teaching in a Waldorf school during college and then I spent two years as a nanny for a professor whose children were in the same school. That said, I completely concur with Lissa's perspective on Waldorf education. While I love the materials, the philosophy is rooted in paganism and you can't Catholicize a pagan education. I will search for the lengthy conversation on CCM and I encourage anybody to really help me. We know how cavernous the yahoo archives are.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Rebecca
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Lissa wrote:
| We can teach our children to knit without believing we're aiding them in untangling the strands of their karma... |
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Oh, thank you! I needed a good laugh today, Lissa!
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donnalynn
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Deleting content of my posts that I feel have been misunderstood.
Donna
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JennGM
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Donna,
Please remember that we try to write in charity here. Please don't attack a person here. If you have personal objections, sometimes it's better to write a PM and hash it out.
Don't jump to conclusions and write off the whole Catholic Church and the Real Learning because of something that one person wrote. First of all, it probably could be expanded and explained. The written word sometimes fails to convey all that we are thinking at the time. Secondly, even if that is the opinion of one person, that is just it is, opinion. In no way does that affect you. You had some wonderful points, and found ways to take the Waldorf into your niche and expand it where you wish, and remove items that you didn't like. Elizabeth didn't. To each his own.
You are right that Church has Christianized multiple pagan customs....but each one should be looked at individually. Perhaps we can expand what paganisms Steiner used compared to what the Church has Christianized to see if there's a difference?
Let's try to discuss this without hurting or lashing out at each other. I've found this discussion very interesting from all sides until now.
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Elizabeth
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JennGM wrote:
| . You had some wonderful points, and found ways to take the Waldorf into your niche and expand it where you wish, and remove items that you didn't like. Elizabeth didn't. To each his own. |
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Oh but I did. You'll see Waldorf influences here and a Waldorf book quoted here.. LOVE the art materials. I don't even attempt, however, to adapt the philosophy of education. I can like the materials without believing in anthroposophy at all. I don't see the child the way Steiner did. I see the child the way Jesus did. There's too big a difference to breach. Lissa and I found her lengthy post on why Waldorf philosophy is problematic and she is far better equipped than I am to give you a complete answer, Donna.
Perhaps Willa will further explain her quote.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Oak Meadow? (
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