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Wendi DeGrandpr
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As I discern our path for the upcoming year I am struggling with the concept of school at home. I have worked trying to get away from this but now I find myself heading back in this direction. My oldest dd is in need of some major structure as well as an impartial person to grade her work. We have struggled the last two years with our relationship. She has not been working up to her potential (and I am sure of that). It is as if she thinks she is being given a free ride by being educated at home. Her life revolves around b-ball and if her grades are not sufficient we do not let her play. We pulled her off the team for a week last year because she was giving me a hard time and not doing the work I asked her to do. All that being said she is not a bad kid - she has a heart of gold and will bend over backwards to help - she is just not motivated on her own.
I am considering Seton for the rest of High School so that I can help her but not be the one giving the assignments and doing the grading. This way her grades are coming from somewhere else and I am not the one saying she cannot play ball IF her work is not acceptable.
I think this will be best for her but it goes against everything I have come to believe about educating my kids at home. I love the lapbooks, notebooks, co-op classes when they fit in, the read alouds etc. I can still do all this with the other three dc but it seems like my dd just won't be part of any of it anymore.
I know that our children need different things at different times but I worry about how this will change the educational dynamic in our home.
My dh says that if it allows me a relationship with my daughter that is not fraught with conflict over school work it is worth it a thousand times over. I know this is true but I am still having a hard time letting go of not wanting to have "school at home".
Anybody else do Seton for some and not for others?
Sorry this is so long and rambling.
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Wendi
Mom to four blessings
"We can do no great things - only small things with great love." Blessed Mother Teresa
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Elizabeth
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Wendi,
Would Kolbe or STAA be more likely to provide the flexibility you want (lapbooks, notebooks, etc) and still give you some outside eyes and accountability for her? You have so much on your plate right now and this is a difficult age--I completely understand your need. I just wonder if Seton might be too structured and thus, create a new problem for you all.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Wendi DeGrandpr
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Elizabeth - what is STAA? I am not familiar with either of these programs. I know KOLBE by name only. Further research is definately a must.
Thank you very much.
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God Bless,
Wendi
Mom to four blessings
"We can do no great things - only small things with great love." Blessed Mother Teresa
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Elizabeth
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Wendi,
Check on this: Saint Thomas Aquinas Academy. I don't know if it would suit your needs or not. Just throwing out options...and prayers!
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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lapazfarm
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I think your dh has a good point. Your relationship with your daughter must come first. If it means sacrificing a bit of the "ideal" school methods and going with school-at-home, then so be it. At least she will still be home with you. And who knows, after a semester with Seton she may see how lucky she was before and request to change back to the way things were. It may be great for her attitude that way!
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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folklaur
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My daughter is sixteen ( I just realized she will be 17 in three short months.) We often, and I mean very, very often, and up in struggles over her schoolwork. I also have wanted to use Seton simply becasue of this. THEY tell her what to do, THEY are who she is "responsible" to -- not me. I get exhausted with the arguements.
And, like you, my daughter isn't a bad kid at all. She dotes on her siblings. She helps me around the house. She is involved in Marching Band, and I am guessing that takes as much time as baseball  She is sweet, and nice, and kind.
She just has no motivation to do schoolwork -- or what I give her for schoolwork.
Because, when I look at it -- she reads - a lot. She decided she wanted to learn piano, so she did. She wanted to learn Japanese (all the while I am trying to teach her Latin, or at least Spanish, as we live in Arizona, but nnnoooooo  - she wants to learn Japanese, becasue she likes the Japanese Animation and wants to be able to read it. So she did. When we go into the Asian Market in town, she can read me many of the labels. But the whole time she is learning it, I am thinking to myself "why? for what? what in the world will learning Japanese do for her?" I missed the fact that she found something, and learned.
Hey, that means I must have taught her how to learn. Hey, that's a good thing! Right? 
She has always hated Science. But she took Chemistry and loved it. And she has always, always, always avoided Math at all costs. I have more Math programs than I care to mention. But she wants to do Physics now (my daughter? this must be an alien imposter!!!!  )and she can't becasue she has never had Algebra 1 or 2. So she is spending time - over the summer and at her own choice ( after some nudging by me  ) taking an Algrabra class so that she will eventually be able to take Physics. Does it help that she is a little afraid of the Mom who is teaching it? Maybe ! But she will come to me to help her with the "homework" and there is no fighting, or tears, or arguing, or eye-rolling (my personal pet peeve). She listens when I am helping her because she really cares about what she is learning, and wants to learn it.
I say this because, for me, I like to be able to look at my lesson plans, or my curriculum, and see the boxes I have checked, see the work she has completed, and have an idea and sense of accomplishment -- something tangible to show she is "doing school". And I don't. She falls behind on curriculum, or whatever lesson plans or assignments I have given her.
And I think to myself :"She doesn't finish. She could, I know she is smart enough, I know she is capable. I see how she throws herself into the "other" stuff - band, Japanese - and why can't she show that same motivation for her schoolwork? Why??!!??!!" And then we have the tension between us. And then I say I am going to use Seton, and THAT will solve the problem.
But will it? Won't she just fall behind anyhow? And then will that take the joy out of learning? And you still will be the one having to be "on top" of it if you are sending the work into them. Well, I know I would, if it was me, because I would still feel like whatever she is doing or sending is a reflection of "our homeschool" and what she has "been taught" up to this point.
Plus -- do they really learn? Do they learn HOW to learn from programs like Seton? Whenever I have looked into it, it seemed just like the "learn this info, pass this test, answer these questions with the "right" answer. Write your essay like this, and make sure it says that. Not so much thinking, debating, exploring, challenging. I just get depressed even thinking about it. But again, that is just me.
Sometimes, I think I have to rewire my own brain when it comes to this. I think I need to re-think exactly WHAT and WHY I am homeschooling her. What is the GOAL? And is it my goal, or hers? At the mid-to-late-teens, I think they are old enough to start thinking about what their goal is, and how they plan on reaching it. And then we just should be there helping them to do that.
Well, I don't know that this has been a helpful post at all. I just want you to know that you aren't alone.
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Angie Mc
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cactus mouse wrote:
, But she wants to do Physics now (my daughter? this must be an alien imposter!!!! )and she can't becasue she has never had Algebra 1 or 2. So she is spending time - over the summer and at her own choice ( after some nudging by me ) taking a Algrabra class so that she will eventually be able to take Physics. Does it help that she is a littel afraid of the Mom who is teaching it? Maybe ! But she will come to me to help her with the "homework" and there is no fighting, or tears, or arguing, or eye-rolling (my personal pet peeve). She listens when I am helping her because she really cares about what she is learning, and wants to learn it.
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ROTFL!!!! I just dropped dd off at the aforementioned Algebra class and, sheesh, I'm a little afraid of the teacher as well, LOL!
Hey Wendi, I too want to chime in and share that my dd has a style that is very different from mine. We can really lock horns...me pushing...her withholding...me dragging...her digging her heals in...me orchestrating...her passively defying...me...well you get the picture. On our best days, I'm trusting...she's giving...I'm waiting patiently...she's showing initiative...I'm looking at the big picture...she's learning from mistakes...I'm becoming smaller so that she can become bigger.
This has been one of the most difficult transitions in my life...and I've had a bunch of doozies! Hang in there, Wendi. I know your question was specific to how to coordinate two different styles of homeschooling. I have no experience in that, but I do have a lot of empathy for your challenge. Let's pray for each other, OK?
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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ALmom
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Wendy:
I began a post about our experience. We did switch - we use Kolbe and it did not impact how we did things with everyone else but we did miss her in some of the events. I'd written a typically long post about our journey here so maybe it is just as well it got killed - but if I get some time later, I'll try to summarize some of what we learned. Our dd did became involved in more of the stuff I did with others than I expected, but in a different sort of way - more like dad is involved in the education. I think we had to do what we did - it really was a good decision for us. Some of it was because our dd had a passion for music and her goal with academics was to get it done so she would have more time to practice. She wanted a well rounded education, she wanted to do serious work and not get "special treatment". She wanted to know that she was doing high quality stuff - but she wanted it to have a definite end so she could pace herself and plan for her music. Seton did not give us enough flexibility and she didn't learn a lot with them because she could play the game too easily. However, with Kolbe we had plenty of freedom to taylor, substitute, etc. but I had guidance in what was realistic, someone to help look at papers etc. Both of us were a lot less stressed once we realized how to utilize them "our way".
I'd better get off as dc are calling.
Janet
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Wendi DeGrandpr
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Ahhh such wonderful wisdom. I knew I had come to the right place. Thank you all for your insight. I appreciate having other curriculums to compare as well as the affirmation that this is a challenging age. You see, she is very artistic - she makes beautiful cards, scrapbooks beautifully, makes beautiful earrings, she is a wonderful and loyal friend to her siblings and friends, she is giving of her time and talents, she has an eye for color, decorating, fashion (modest) - she sees things in a way I just don't. I guess I just don't see the worth in these things in respect to her "future". If she wants to go to college for art, design etc then great, but she only wants to play basketball for some college. She doesn't have an academic goal - and while I would like to say that is frustrating - I didn't have a clue what God wanted me to do until I was over 30. I had my own agenda for far too many years. I am praying that growing up in a completely different manner than I did she may be able to discern her vocation sooner but who knows - and there is no way it can be expected of her now. That being said I so much appreciate what Laura said about her daughter learning things she is interested in. My problem is that I don't see my dd "wanting" to learn anything in particular. She did say if I was going to enroll her in Seton that she would do whatever it took to finish Algebra I this summer so she wouldn't be behind but honestly I think that is her pride talking - she doesn't want to be in the 9th grade if she is "supposed" to be in the 10th. I am worried that a canned curriculm will enable her to "get it over with" without really helping her to discern her vocation.
I am praying for a spark. I just wish she would say "I am interested in ...." and off we would go to find a class or whatever resources needed.
I have wondered at times if the problem is simply mine. I grew up with the message that college was essential for success in life, a good paying job was essential because you couldn't count on anyone to take care of you, 1.4 kids, a dog, a volvo and a nice house were essential to happiness. It has been a long road to where we are today but I think those thoughts still nag at me - NOT because I buy them but simply because they have always been there and just shutting them off isn't easy due to my ever obvious human failings.
I guess I have alot of praying to do. I have tried asking her about her goals and interests to taylor her curriculum in the past but it has not given her any more motivation to actually pursue these topics etc.
Thanks again - I really look forward to pursuing this with you ladies.
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God Bless,
Wendi
Mom to four blessings
"We can do no great things - only small things with great love." Blessed Mother Teresa
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Angie Mc
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Wendi DeGrandpr wrote:
| You see, she is very artistic - she makes beautiful cards, scrapbooks beautifully, makes beautiful earrings, she is a wonderful and loyal friend to her siblings and friends, she is giving of her time and talents, she has an eye for color, decorating, fashion (modest) - she sees things in a way I just don't. I guess I just don't see the worth in these things in respect to her "future". If she wants to go to college for art, design etc then great, but she only wants to play basketball for some college. |
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Oh Wendi...I could have written your post. AND, your daughter sounds like she has a lot in common with my daughter. I've got an idea...would your daughter want to discuss the topic of discerning herr vocation and life work with other young women in her situation? She can start a thread on the teen forum or email my daughter (and maybe some of my daughters friends.) Oh...and don't underestimate the good of basketball  . Feel free to PM me if you think this would help.
Love,
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Angie Mc
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Wendi DeGrandpr
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Angie Mc wrote:
Oh...and don't underestimate the good of basketball
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I don't think athletics are worthless, believe me. It's just that in this instance I have a hard time finding the good. The high school team is extremely cliqueish and they are not girls she is allowed to be with outside of basketball. Frankly they are pretty obnoxious to her during the season - on and off the court. There are a couple of other girls who play that are also home schooled. One in particular she was friendly with so I kept an open mind and heart about the friendship - this girl just got her license and a car and she was bragging to my dd about drag racing her car with the other girls (they all play basketball and softball - my dd doesn't play softball). Drag racing. AHHHHHHH!
Maybe our experience with school sports is different from others but these kids don't even act like a team. They spend their bus rides totally plugged in to dvd players or cd players. There is NO interaction. They show up for games, mouth off to the refs, roll their eyes at the coach and basically don't listen to him if they don't like what he is saying. We have a small school district and they stuggle to get enough kids to play so being tough on them will only make them quit ... and then their would be no team. How sad is that????
Given all this, I am struggling to see the benefits of sports right now.
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God Bless,
Wendi
Mom to four blessings
"We can do no great things - only small things with great love." Blessed Mother Teresa
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Angie Mc
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That IS sad! What about coaching? Does your daughter like to coach? Are there kids in the neighborhood or in a hs group who would like to have her coach a team? Not that this takes the place of playing with a team... I'm just brainstorming here...one of the things my 10yo and I have been talking about is using his interest and talent in baseball with kids who would enjoy having fun with the game but aren't going to hang in a competitive Little League (another "how sad it that" that LL is so competitive.)
Love,
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Angie Mc
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Wendi DeGrandpr
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ALmom wrote:
However, with Kolbe we had plenty of freedom to taylor, substitute, etc. but I had guidance in what was realistic, someone to help look at papers etc. Both of us were a lot less stressed once we realized how to utilize them "our way".
Janet |
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Janet - how is the accountability different btwn Kolbe and Seton. I have been looking at them and almost decided Kolbe wasn't for us because I am still the one who has to do the grading etc. How do they help as far as looking at papers etc? Part of my reason for a change is that I can no longer be the one who says: You can't play basketball because your grades aren't good enough. It becomes way too much of a battleground here if it is up to me.
I really like what Kolbe has to offer and I am more drawn to them, but Seton gives me the buffer I need and I didn't get that feeling from Kolbe. Please let me know if I have misunderstood.
Thanks -
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God Bless,
Wendi
Mom to four blessings
"We can do no great things - only small things with great love." Blessed Mother Teresa
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Bookswithtea
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Wendi DeGrandpr wrote:
| You see, she is very artistic - she makes beautiful cards, scrapbooks beautifully, makes beautiful earrings, she is a wonderful and loyal friend to her siblings and friends, she is giving of her time and talents, she has an eye for color, decorating, fashion (modest) |
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Wendi DeGrandpr wrote:
I am praying for a spark. I just wish she would say "I am interested in ...." and off we would go to find a class or whatever resources needed.
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Is it perhaps that she does have passions but they just aren't academic, so they don't count for a college transcript? I do understand this, because my oldest's bent is guitar...the only thing he wants to pursue at the moment is being in a band!   I am trying really hard to be open to it though, because what if he is to be God's next Matt Maher or someone like that? At the very least, he will always be the guy who can bring along a guitar and play worship songs (along with the Beatles and the Police and U2...sigh...).
I don't have artistic kids so I don't know a lot about available opportunities, but what about art classes and then looking into art school for her? High School of Your Dreams (CHC) has some ideas for kids who are motivated to pursue artistic careers. In one area we lived in, a parishioner was offering "writing icons" for those who were motivated. All of my local scrapbooking stores offer classes and crop days. Places like Michael's offer all sorts of classes on jewelry making. The local community college might offer sewing classes (I learned this way in my first year of marriage! lol). Once she graduates she can play basketball for the local community college, too, perhaps?
Have you looked at CHC's 8th grade religion plans? They have a semester unit in discerning vocation? Perhaps getting her more opportunities with the crafting along with CHC's vocation guidance ideas might help her? It sounds to me like she has passions and loves, but maybe just doesn't know how God wants her to pursue them and how they fit into the bigger plan for her life.
Perhaps after doing some of this, she might be more willing to get the schoolwork done, no matter what the method? Fwiw, my ds is not motivated for 4 yr university (double sigh...I soooooooo wanted to see him go to Steubenville!) at all. I don't know what God's plan is for him...I am still on my knees over the whole thing and I wonder sometimes if God is even going to tell me. He might just decide to tell my ds, first! I don't know if the solution is a more traditional "school at home" program. I'm still trying to figure that one out for our family. Maybe it does work best for some kids. I'm just not sure...
just a meager .02 and lots of empathy...
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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andibc
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Two questions come to mind
-Will a long distance program provide the accountability that will make a difference given her personality? It works for some, but not for others. If things are not turned in, the schools do not call. If she doesn't do the work you will still be the one that will be pushing her. The school won't be telling her she can't do x or y-- she will still see you making that decision and enforcing it.
-Is this the type of learning experience you really want her to have? Is she learning at all using a living books approach? Will she learn (that is internalize and retain) if she uses another a textbook based program or will she be going through the motions in order to finish up? Textbooks in moderation have worked in our home for a few children, but others just read, test out and promptly forget what was read.
You and I have talked a little about our dds doing "Where the Brook and River Meet." I still don't know to what degree this approach will work for my 15 dd, but I have found that she needs structure and that she does assimilate material presented in textbook form better than living book form. I'm not convinced that providing material that is mediocre, and the predigested material in textbooks often is just that, is what is best for her despite it providing an appearance of "material learned and completed."
These highly creative children sometimes seem to prefer to fly through their studies so that they can move on to that which really pleases them. That would be creating something beautiful, right? Maybe their studies don't produce something that they consider to be immediately beautiful. It seems that the satisfaction that comes from having learned something new is not intrinsically motivating to them (I'm just thinking out loud here) If there was long term retention of material studied with textbooks or other programmed material, than their use might be justified, but if the goal in the student's mind is to complete the work in order to get something that is enjoyable (crafting, playing b-ball) then long term retention is not likely and the programmed material may have also failed by not providing the child with ideas to chew on.
It seems that a creative child who needs structure would benefit more if they were able to take ownership of their own education by selecting material, topics, and establishing required grades and deadlines. We have been working toward that with our dd. At this point her program for next year is a mix of classics, 2 textbook (math and science) and projects. It isn’t completely firmed up yet, but she is learning to use her creative side to set up plans and goals.
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Wendi DeGrandpr
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andibc wrote:
Two questions come to mind
-Will a long distance program provide the accountability that will make a difference given her personality? It works for some, but not for others. If things are not turned in, the schools do not call. If she doesn't do the work you will still be the one that will be pushing her. The school won't be telling her she can't do x or y-- she will still see you making that decision and enforcing it.
-Is this the type of learning experience you really want her to have? Is she learning at all using a living books approach? Will she learn (that is internalize and retain) if she uses another a textbook based program or will she be going through the motions in order to finish up? Textbooks in moderation have worked in our home for a few children, but others just read, test out and promptly forget what was read.
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You could be reading my mind!!! These are EXACTLY the things that I am struggling with. I just can't "let go" of the feeling that we will be allowing her to just check things off and be done walking away with a diploma at the end. That is the public school mindset that I do not want for my dc.
And, yes, I will still be the one she will be mad at if her grades are not good enough to play ball - but I will not be the one issuing the grades. Again, it would be just like her bringing home a report card from PS.
I will be the parent, but not the administation as well.
I am truly in a quandry - so I will pray and pray and pray until we find some clarity.
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God Bless,
Wendi
Mom to four blessings
"We can do no great things - only small things with great love." Blessed Mother Teresa
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BrendaPeter
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Laura,
I want to send your message to all my friends! You are a very perceptive mom.
Wendi,
I don't have teenagers (yet) & don't really struggle with this problem, per se, so take what I write here with a grain of salt. Have you considered having her plan her next school year out herself with some help from you? It seems at this age, that in order for things to go smoothly academically, the student has to be more "in charge" of her education. Just a suggestion...
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Wendi DeGrandpr
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Thanks again to all of you. I spent quite a lot of time reading old threads last night as well. I was able to take a lot from the information on the CHC High School of Your Dreams - I found that inspiring. I have also been reading a lot in the Teenage Years threads. Lots of food for thought. Helps me stay focused on the outcome and the fact that it is about so much more than academics. I definately want dd to be invested in this next year so maybe involving her in developing a curriculum is the way to go. I have realized that I need to schedule in regular time for planning and implementing our schooling this year. I have never had regular time - just squeeze it in here and there. I need her to be more invested and me to be more disciplined. Good specific things to pray for.
I appreciate having this forum to come to!! You all have helped me to get back on track.
Of course I am still not sure what we will do but I am beginning to think that Seton would be band-aid not a solution.
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God Bless,
Wendi
Mom to four blessings
"We can do no great things - only small things with great love." Blessed Mother Teresa
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ALmom
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Wendi:
You asked how Kolbe helps us in the accountability department. Well, one of the problems my dd had with me schooling was the open endedness of the assignments. I wasn't very clear in what I wanted and then when she would get done early, I'd get extra picky about it thinking I wasn't challenging her enough. I thought of our situation because of our dd passion for music - (and yours for sports) academics were important to her in terms of pride with her peers (that she was doing the same level of toughness as peers in orchestra, that we weren't too easy on her, etc). and to get into college to study music. She needed a plan that said, this is what needs to be done for adequate work for this grade level. We did a lot of discussing with her in terms of deciding what to do. We looked on-line at colleges with music schools she would consider. It became obvious to her that she had better buckle down and get some science under her belt as all the music schools required at least 3 sciences (to include at least 2 labs) and some required sciences like you are an engineering major. This was an eye opener to us both - and great motivation.
One thing she shared with me was how frustrating it was to work very, very hard to get something done early so she could have more practice time - and then dear old mom would load her up with more work (generally you assume when they are finishing a weeks assignments in 1 day, the work load is too light). Basically, I was motivating her to do the minimum because my approach was not taking into account her passion. Why work yourself to death for the time off when all mom will do is add more work and you still don't get that extra practice time.
However, my legitimate concern was that her education was looking very unbalanced - tons of music, not much science getting done at all, math went ok mostly because you had a pretty cut and dry tb and when it was done it was done and literature was whatever minimal was required. I was having nightmares trying to figure out what was reasonable - challenging, providing that well-roundedness, etc. Having someone like Kolbe gave us an idea - then we could work from there with consultation to taylor it to our own family and child. We did this in the summer so that there was a set plan by early - mid August and then she was free to work the plan timewise, however she wanted. I didn't go back and add more literature because she'd finished reading all the 1st semester books in a week. I began to realize she had her own system and I let her be, confident that we had a reasonable level of demanding work.
The other big difference for us between Kolbe and Seton besides the attitude (Kolbe's was that the parent was the prime educator and they were the supporter: Seton's was that they were a school and were making sure the content was Catholic so no harm came to our dc, but they were in charge of final grading, etc. as a real school) was the way questions and tests and papers were worded. Seton tended to be regurgitate and forget. Kolbe questions required more thought. It wasn't a system you could memorize and regurgitate and survive. You really were forced to grapple with the ideas. This served us better as with this dd and Seton, the temptation was just too great to play the game and let learning go out the window. Seton had very good literature selections. I do not always agree with Kolbe's choices (and substitute freely with other works of literature)and feel a need for a broader view of history. Kolbe has very good primary sources and a very intense look at a small chunk of history. I like to try and place that chunk in the wider context, so we do some significant changes here, while still using some of their books, paper topics, etc. Seton's history was your traditional memorize the textbook and they would not accept answers from other sources.
For our oldest that needed plans, in history we used 8th grade lesson plans from Kolbe and added a few paper/essay assignments, but I had their tests to make sure there was some recall/ traditional history study. I'm not really fond of that way of doing history but at this point for this child, this gave some accountability and made her grapple with a few things to get the bigger picture. I felt she needed this as background info for the 12th grade year. I also had her do some thought provoking essays. For 12th grade, we followed kolbe history plans as written and really liked it. We also utilized some tutors to get some relief (Spanish in particular). I did not have to get a transcript from Kolbe as we had our own church history - so I was a bit freer to substitute a modern language for Latin. If you were going for their transcript, then of course you always have that as another source of accountability as they will expect 2 sample works per subject per quarter.
In any case, we have done significant modification of Kolbe - using their plans or substituting others - sometimes creating our own year by pulling from different quarters from different kolbe years. Kolbe helped me modify the plans, so I had some guidance here. They volunteered the 8th grade materials and suggested what to add. This made dd feel better about it - also it really was a typical high school tb. This helped this dd put things together. I do history in an entirely different way with everyone else. Now that school pressure is off, the funny thing is this same history hater was reading "The Day Lincoln Was Shot". I couldn't resist pointing out that this is history and feigning total shock. She thought I was terribly funny. But I just had to make sure she got a minimal background - whatever path that took. In her case it was a more traditional looking textbook approach one year to provide background for the focused look in 12th grade and lots of informal discussion around the dinner table related to what everyone else was reading, doing. She took ample part in this - and seemed more involved in everyone else's studies, just because she didn't have to. She had her standard plans, followed those, everyone felt relaxed because we had a transcript and then we learned informally without trying. (We'd have been too stressed for this informal learning without our plans . I think it is just that passion that takes up so much time, our temperments, this dc express request for structure and the fact that she was my first high schooler!
Seton and Kolbe both have set plans. With Seton you can modify home assignments but 70% of the grade depends on the few tests/papers that must be handed in to Seton exactly as written. My dd could memorize the lists, figure out what the teacher wanted and without engaging her mind, simply regurgitate everything, get her grade and forget whatever it was. This drove me nuts. She went nuts because she didn't feel like Seton respected her ability to think, discern, draw her own conclusions, etc. She felt like they were trying to brain wash her to the party line and resented this part. (This is not necessarily Seton but the combination of their approach running into my dd personality and needs). Kolbe does leave the final grade decision to the parent, and will comment on papers related to books not on their lesson plans. They freely accept whatever parents decide. I would send in a paper and ask them to look it over, look at my comments and tell me if I was being too easy or too hard. Were there things I was missing, etc. I wanted this to help me learn how to better provide constructive criticism and suggestions. I am not a literature person and just needed that help. My dd knew that my grade was based on the degree of effort she put forth, and Kolbe's comments. She knew I was seriously taking into account whatever Kolbe feedback we received - sometimes it wouldn't change a grade but gave me some ideas for what to work on for the next paper as I had not adequately presented this to her. We were both more consistent, because we could hash out our doubts in discussion with Kolbe - instead of jumping around like hot potatoes!
Kolbe now has an enhanced evaluation service where they will provide the grade for up to 15 papers per quarter (and this does not have to be papers on their plans). So if you really want someone else to grade items, you can now get that from Kolbe as well as Seton. I felt Kolbe comments were more helpful, but perhaps that is me or my dc. They also accept and encourage individual style, so not every intro has to look exactly alike.
My dd just also felt more confident because I was consulting "experts" - so if we dropped something, it wasn't because mom was fickle, but because the "experts" said it was still sufficient work for the year. Now, I have to explain that I didn't hand over my dd education to Kolbe (Seton works better if that is what you want to do), and we didn't do things because Kolbe said or didn't say - but I was able to share my concerns. Perhaps an illustration might help. In 11th grade (our first year with Kolbe), I tried to do everything in all their plans, plus 2 additional books per quarter, plus trying to do stuff from 2 differing years. This was all our own craziness (Kolbe had actually recommended that we pick a few things and do them very well - I've learned to listen to their sage advice!) - but when we got overwhelmed, I was able to talk out loud to someone (in the middle of the day when the need was pressing and not worry that I was interrupting another homeschooling mom to cry on her shoulder - I was paying for consulting services) and explain what it was I saw as my dd strengths and weaknesses and they would throw out some ideas, until something hit me. Well, that year, I felt like we had truely done a lot of work, we needed to wrap up and put an end to things, but I also felt dd needed to write a research paper (I know, I'm a bit ambitious)and I didn't feel good about putting this one off again. Kolbe threw out various ideas as they detected my clear need to provide training in this skill, but the competing need for rest and some time off. They suggested that we drop the research paper for this year, but make it the first assignment for next year - with high expectations to perfect it, and that it was a non-negotiable graduation requirement. This was really the perfect solution - our decision, our call , but a great idea from them. We took the time off, started the research paper early. I made dd do it on a history topic (but it could be any time period and any aspect of history as I felt this was a weak area that needed a bit more effort). Well, she did do a beatiful paper on Music history - narrowed the topic nicely and learned tons of history in the process as well as how to write a research paper. Now, my dd responded better to getting off the hook, because it wasn't a mom giving in to her wheedling (which she sometimes would think I was doing even when I wasn't just because it was hard to tell what was the correct level of work for her)but a judicious decision reached for academic reasons.
Could I have done this without Kolbe - probably if I had enough confidence working with a high schooler. But since she was my first high schooler, was following such a different path and really needed to know that the work load was high school challenging and I couldn't base it on when or how long it took her to do something, this was all very confusing to me. Kolbe helped me know that we were coming up with workable, reasonable plans that fit our dd.
The real thing that helped was me backing off on the badgering mode. We discussed curriculums together. We consulted with providers. We came up with a plan that had a start point and a stop point. We were open to discusss changes during the year - but both felt better knowing we weren't just dropping things because we didn't get to them. I used Kolbe as an educational consultant to hash my insecurities out so that I had a confidence in approaching dd.
I also decided that I really didn't care how long it took us to do high school. If it took 8 years, that was her choice! Of course we did make sure she noticed that high school competitions had age limits and after year 4, she was inelgible to compete so would have to settle for lessons only. Sports are similiar, you are not elgible to compete in college if you take more than 4 years to do high school or something like that. Anyways, finishing high school in 4 years became her goal. Then we had to decide what was appropriate work. I did not choose to have any say in when she did the work - just that I expected certain assignments before a grade could be issued for her transcript. The work had to be done. When it got done was up to her. We sketched out 4 years of coursework, had lesson plans that broke things down by the week - but she could do this in any way she chose (block things out one subject at a time, work hard on certain subjects early, then go slower during music season - whatever).
This was a huge plus!!!! Because she was trying to work around practice time, piano competitions, orchestra, chamber groups, etc., she really did need that flexibility! She would start earlier than the rest of us in the summer, and then do almost nothing academic during her peak competition season. The first year we gave the when she worked over to her, she ended up doing her least favorite subject all summer (biology)due to always avoiding the distasteful. But because we had sat down together to come to reasonable agreement on the what had to be done and we both knew it was reasonable - not my overambitious we can do everything tendency, she knew she couldn't belly ache. She really did take ownership of the problem and live with her choice to put off this subject. She also made sure her chemistry was done the following year (actually she was so worried about messing herself up for college music that she worked so hard and finished it in half a year). She learned from her mistake and also gained a great lesson in budgeting her time wisely.
Actually once she was budgeting her own time, she began cooking and sewing, and reading for pleasure. Her prayer life improved and her academic work got done actually in a very timely manner without me saying anything. She also began poking her head around to see what we were up to, asking her siblings questions, showing interest in their learning. She started having tons of relaxed time with her sis - sometimes they would work out a trade (the oldest would read a book in exchange for her sis doing some cello with her). We started seeing how the dc gifts became a blessing for the whole family in ways beyond what we expected. We had great conversations around the table and she really is very involved in the family life. It is different than I might have envisioned it at first, but she is very involved in family life.
It was very different working with a dd who had a non-academic goal. It was very different for me as I had been the typical college prep type - by golly, I was getting my money's worth so if we were allowed to take 18 semester hours without paying more, then I did it. I would have been mortified to not take physics (whatever the most challenging course offered was). My dd, quite frankly, would just as soon never see physics in her life - but she will read by dh science journals (loaded with physics). She does not want to be tested on this as this is not related to her field. She does not have a physics course on her transcript - mom had to let go of that one.
I also know the stress of parents pushing a certain path because it makes money - I double majored in math and history (math for my dad so he felt good about helping me in college 'cause then I could get a job when I graduated). My dh and I were determined that our dc were going to be able to follow their interests and gifts and see where God would lead them (maybe we'd have had a tendency to push a more reliable field as a back-up if the first had been a son). So we have encouraged her talent and passion - and have been surprised by the possibilities it has opened up for her. Now, I do have to say that the influence of her musical interest has all been positive and we haven't had to contend with any really bad atmosphere, peer pressure, etc. yet so that does make this a bit different. But I have a cousin who is big time into sports and he has made a career (he is Protestant) of evangelization through sports. There are people in these kinds of fields who really do carve their own niche and do some very interesting things.
As for how we adjusted. The main thing I had to do was make sure that the one doing the lesson plan mode knew that it was up to her to tell me when she needed help or something graded. I also had to be sure she wrote down somewhere what she did on what day, so that I could eventually enter days in the attendance record for legal recording purposes - couldn't afford to get in trouble with the state. She simply jotted stuff down in a notebook until we had the mandatory 160 days - then we didn't care anymore. I really was afraid of being busy with the littles and losing those lost few years with her. She was very good at coming to me and occassionally, I'd give the littles the day off so I could discuss history or lit. with this dd. We also planned some of our outside the house activities to correspond to dd test day, so the house would be really quiet for her then. Sometimes, she would postpone her test a day or 2, knowing I'd have all the littles somewhere for the whole afternoon. But then when we came back, she would be all interested in what we found, etc. We just had to communicate plans (sometimes adjust if there was something she wanted to do with us). Looking back, I really think the whole thing wasn't so much about education as about learning the art of letting go. The more ownership she had, the more she rose to the responsibility - but it is an art in knowing just the right amount of responsibility and guidance.
When it comes to high school course planning, the dc really should be a very important part of that. We made our decision for Seton and then for Kolbe together (dh, dd and I). I can look back and know that was a very good decision for us. Just talk to dh, dd, the various programs and ideas and you'll come to something that works just right for you (or learn how to really modify it to make it work right for you).
Anyways, when you posted, I wondered if part of the angst has to do with this non-academic passion thing. I suspect parents with dc with these kinds of passions have had to make various adjustments to figure out how to support the passion, while keeping a balanced education going - and how to use the passion to motivate the learning! Our dd really doesn't mind learning all kinds of things - as long as it is no pressure and no grade. But that doesn't fit your typical high school transcript - and her goal did involve college, although not academic pursuit in college. It helped her to realize that certain academics were still required to get in the door.
Can you use some of these desires to help her begin to knock off some of her academic college courses to free up more sports time? If we'd have discovered the duel enrollment option here sooner, that would have been a great motivator for dd. She would have had a college course for high school and college credit and been able to knock of academic core courses so she'd have more college time for music.
The hardest part for me was that this was all totally alien territory. I knew nothing about music, it was totally undervalued in my home growing up (much to my sorrow now) and it took dd interest to expand my appreciation of its great worth.
Janet
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Cay Gibson
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 16 2005
Location: Louisiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5193
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| Posted: July 06 2006 at 7:13pm | IP Logged
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Wendi,
We used STAA with my oldest his 11th grade year.
 It didn't work out.
I'm sure it wasn't the Academy's fault or his consultant's fault. And I really think STAA will work for one's who wants a Classical Ed. (The child, I mean; not the mom. ) I thought we did. But Classical Ed is not what this child needed. His senior year, we unschooled and he took a vo-tech class and on job training.
I realized his senior year that he and I had almost stopped breathing during his junior year.
One thing I caution about STAA. Don't think they will let you build his curricula for the year. That's what I thought when I signed on. I also dragged two other high schoolers and their families along with me. Neither one of them lastest either.
Your child takes an evaluation test and the counselor comes up with a curricula for him/her. They expect you to follow it to a "T". They were not very open to us tweaking the curriculum. 
Corey took a Geometry class supplied by our hs group and he took the vo-tech class. STAA would not accept either one of these as credits nor would they consider his on-job training.
We were both very disappointed.  You really have to be careful. Some of these schools say they'll let you do your own thing, but they won't.  I had to learn how to make a transcript (thanks to Willa I was able to come up with a very good looking transcript), but I got a few extra gray hairs over it.
I'm still looking for a good accredited school that will keep papers and credits and transcripts for me.
One good thing that came from it is I'm more comfortable using CHC through high school and doing the record keeping on my own.
Even then, in the end, it all comes down to testing.
__________________
Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: "School at home"
