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knowloveserve
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| Posted: Nov 12 2015 at 5:11pm | IP Logged
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Friends,
Indulge me in a bit of a heart dump; I haven't been on this site in a few months. Now, I'm seeking good counsel and trying to evaluate whether my motives are pure:
The day before it started, we enrolled our three older boys in the local, Catholic school down the street (grades: 3, 5 and 7) this year. The decision was thought about long and hard but made rather hastily as I couldn't bear the thought of giving up homeschooling. I am still grieving it... but am consoled in knowing that God judges our intentions and my family was trying to figure out how to serve him best...
In short, the reason wasn't because homeschooling was something I felt was going poorly—indeed I am gifted with a love for it and I believe that I am good at it, relatively speaking. Neither were my children inordinately showing lack of progress or behavioral issues that made this decision. We made the decision because our home is desperately in need of ORDER. I am lacking a lot of focus and organization in really managing my household and the hope was that by sending the children to school, I'd be able to really buckle down and master these domestic skills to keep the peace in the home and the husband feeling like this is a welcome place... not a den of unruly hooligans.
Well, suffice it to say, I have not suddenly turned into Martha Stewart. I am pregnant with #7 and this has been the most difficult pregnancy on me so far with exhaustion/nausea. Beyond that, I still have the 6, 4 and nearly 2 year olds at home with me and I feel like I'm just chasing them around putting out their fires all day. We do minimal lessons with numbers and letters and read alouds but mostly, I'm just trying to clean and get a grip on our home. (To be fair to myself, and while not making excuses, this 110 year old house does not "work" for me in the way I know other homes work for other women. I lack so much storage space and I am missing an entire bedroom right now as my husband has it gutted for a remodel... then we found out the back part of the house is literally sinking so the remodel is on hold until we figure out what to do with that... but I digress)
My little ones require an immense amount of attention. My busy boxes got destroyed very quickly. They tend to run feral if given the opportunity and find any flavor of trouble they can. Therefore, most of my time I wanted to spend learning and creating ORDER is instead just maintaining basic living conditions.
But that's not the main issue. (Like I said, this is lengthy... sorry!)
My 7th grader has been begging to come home since Day 1 of school. He has lots of friends and is preforming in a mediocre way (I'm okay with that) but he dislikes how long it is and how much busy work he has to do. He keeps pulling at my heart strings saying what a big help he'd be at home (and he would; he's excellent with my little kids). My husband is more inclined (though not set) on making him tough this year out and then we'll reassess. This is good for his character, he says and challenges some of his rather lazy study habits.
My 5th grader is thriving in school. He has his own friends for the first time in his life, is becoming a star in the choir and is very happy there. Academics come easy to him and he's doing very well. This child is my most intense, parenting-resistant child I have and if nothing else, I believe it is healthy for he and I to have some space to breathe during the day. That way, our power struggles are only during the 2nd half of the day. It sounds terrible, but really... he is incredibly bright but incredibly stubborn and fairly disobedient. School has been good for him. He will finish the year out.
My 3rd grader is drowning. His is the largest class in school with 27 children and a rookie, male teacher. He was not prepared for the workload of 3rd grade AT ALL, and we literally skip 75% of the homework because it reduces him to tears and I have to bite my tongue on what lame, garbage, busy work it is. I have talked with his teacher about it and he is very kind but I feel like my son is so overwhelmed and overstimulated that he's not learning anything at all. I think I would probably have to repeat 3rd grade next year if I went back to homeschooling. This child hates school. He hates how long it is. And we both hate the homework.
Sending the children to school brought its own set of problems... which I was not so naive as to be surprised by this. I expected some of these. But I didn't expect my original problem to not really go away. I am a poor, distracted homemaker. Still am. Now, I'm a poor, distracted homemaker with miserable children.
I am thinking of pulling out the 3rd and 7th grader at Christmas Break. I am already resigned to realizing what a fool my community must think I am with this in and out behavior, and I'm okay with that. But someday, I will have to answer to my adult children about the decisions we made for their education. And I want to do what's right FOR THEM. Is it better for them to stick it out and have this experience... then we'll go back to homeschooling next fall? Or should I let my heart rule here and bring them home at mid-term? I am inclined to want to pull out the 3rd grader because he is failing so badly... but if I did, my 13 year old would be furious that he wasn't allowed to come home too. And while it'd be helpful to have him here (especially when new baby is born in late April), I wonder if this is indeed good for him to learn to stick something out. He isn't failing; he is learning some things... he just doesn't like it.
Long story short, what would you do?
__________________
Ellie
The Bleeding Pelican
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Nov 12 2015 at 6:12pm | IP Logged
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Hi Ellie.  First, a  . Second, I apologize in advance - I have no idea how much time I'll have because my toddler will be awake soon and I need to start dinner. But...I wanted to brainstorm with you.
I read your post carefully. It seems you've got a lot going on, a lot on your plate, and you're overwhelmed managing it all in what seems like disorder and chaos. This is a FULL and INTENSE season of life for you, so that's just going to define some of what your day looks like, ok? It's just not gonna ever resemble Martha Stewart, or any facsimile thereof...which I really think you know...but I want to say it out loud anyway.
Life will be...messy...interrupted...and full. Period. For a long time.
Still...life CAN BE less cluttered, more focused and considered which I think might give you back some of what you're craving.
I want to ask a few questions first...and I'm asking them not with the intention that you answer them out loud to me...but just answer them to yourself and let the answers have some consequences if needed.
? What is your prayer life like?
? How often are you able to get to the Sacraments? especially confession and spending quiet time in front of the Blessed Sacrament? <-- PRIORITY WORTH BRAINSTORMING!
? Do you have a morning routine that is fairly consistent?
? Have you identified the virtues God is stretching you/your family toward during this time so you can focus on the good?
? Are you doing some spiritual reading - even 15 minutes a day?
? How about your personal care and health? Sleep? Vitamins? Decent meals?
? Kids habits: can you identify two basic habits that, if mastered, would help your day along?
? Your habits: can you identify two habits that, if mastered, would help you manage your day?
? Do you spend any/a lot of time on social media looking for ideas? How do you feel when you do this? Are you inspired and motivated? If yes, keep visiting others! If you're only reading/visiting online spots that validate you, or you allow yourself to feel inadequate by virtue of comparison, stop clicking around! Immediately.
HOME MANAGEMENT
On this, you can only do what you can do...and by that I mean - keep your expectations reasonable. Still...a few ideas jumped off the page at me as I was reading your post so I'm just going to list them in a stream of consciousness way so I can get them listed before I need to go...
PRIORITY 1 --> ** WHAT IS MANAGING YOU? Make a list THIS WEEK of the "basic living conditions" you feel you must constantly manage with the littles...the ones that you feel are preventing you from creatively managing and ordering your day. Sit down with your husband and your list. Brainstorm it. Consider the idea of "freedom within boundaries." Set some boundaries and consider how you can provide freedom within them - THEN insist on the responsibility of tidying up. What are these living conditions that are ruling your day and preventing you from feeling a sense that you are managing the day?
PRIORITY 2 --> ** DEAL WITH BASIC CLUTTER: Find a room or claim a room in your home (garage, closet, bedroom, corner of a room) and let it be a dump zone for holding bins for awhile. Obviously, it's better if this can be a room with a door - but work with what you've got. Start in one room and bin up EVERYTHING you don't use on a daily basis and that doesn't fit the purpose of that room. EVERYTHING. This shouldn't take you longer than one day to complete one room...an afternoon if you're motivated. Don't sort, visit with, or consider things going into bins - if you use it --> leave it...if you don't use it --> bin it. If you are having trouble deciding what to keep - pretend your husband has just come home and told you you're moving to a two bedroom apartment in Europe - and let that be your guide. You're only keeping out the most essential and the loveliest of your things. Clear your desk, dresser, counters. Live with less. Much less. You can sort and deal with the bins later.
PRIORITY 3 --> KID STUFF ** If you have things like busy boxes out - remove them. Immediately. They're magnets for clutter and destruction. Clear ONE SHELF in your living area and keep out only the LOVELIEST of toys that fit on ONE SHELF. Put everything else away. This includes toys in the kids rooms. Put it ALL AWAY. Consider it temporary - Advent is a GREAT time to do this and that's just around the corner anyway! Get a head start on it!
PRIORITY 4 --> WHAT IF THE PROBLEM ISN'T "STUFF" CLUTTER - The above exercise may result in the realization that you may not have a lot of "stuff clutter" - if not, what IS cluttering your space? Unrealistic expectations? Lack of chores for the children? Lack of accountability for the children? For you? A sense of not knowing where to start?
** Make a simple list of the home management skills you THINK you should be exercising daily, weekly, seasonally.
** What stands in your way of completing this list? That will tell you pretty quickly if you have a "stuff challenge" or an "attitude challenge" to prayerfully tackle.
HOMESCHOOLING
I'm torn here - and that's probably because I really can't answer this. This is a question ONLY you and your husband can ultimately decide.
Is homeschooling doable for you? Yes, I think so, but not unless you figure out what is blocking you from feeling that you can reasonably manage your home and children in this season of life. Emphasis on reasonable and season of life. What do you think is reasonable for your current season of life? (Expecting #7, little kids - teens, husband and home - that's AN INTENSE SEASON by the way!) Have you written that down and allowed that to hold you accountable - this idea of what your reasonably managed home looks like? That would be another list/exercise I'd complete. Write it down and ask your husband if it is indeed reasonable, and where your obstacles/speed bumps are?
I think...this is a decision I'd table for the time being. Commit to pray about it with a pen and paper in hand every day (and by that I mean journal everything that comes to mind when you pray about it). Talk to your husband honestly about it. Make more lists - what are your biggest challenges? What would you need to change (anything?) to be able to effectively communicate and foster an education at home? I would choose a date on my planner that lived somewhere during Christmas break and make a date with my husband to discuss and make the decision at that time. I'd bring my lists and give myself time to have SEVERAL LONG, GOOD CRYING SESSIONS in the shower BEFORE this date so I could get as much emotion out of the way as possible.
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See if you can identify and tackle the home management obstacles first, keeping in mind your season of life!!!
Then, consider homeschooling in light of knowing what you must do to manage your home.
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Toddler's up and I need to run - I hope this makes some sense and gives you some ideas to start prayerfully brainstorming, Ellie! I can come back and brainstorm again if you like!
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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SeaStar
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| Posted: Nov 12 2015 at 6:25pm | IP Logged
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OK- first, lots of
I only have two kids, so I don't have the numbers that you are blessed with, but I can give you some insight about myself. Even when I had NO kids, I was not an orderly, everything in its place person. My problem: I just did not know where to put things, so I would have piles around for ages trying to decided what to do with them. Heck- I am still that way! Having kids has not helped that problem. I suffer from inertia/stuff paralysis. I have come to realize that the only answer for me is to nix the stuff, as much as I can (which is not easy). I am a lot happier doing without stuff (yes, even books), then with trying to organize and clean stuff all. the. time.
I am not a true minimalist, but the idea inspires me. Recently I have been following a family on FB: 7 kids (think- might be eight) and they homeschool and have been on a minimalist journey. The mom talks a lot about how this has been so helpful for them- she posts lots of pictures, which always motivate me- and talks a lot about how they live now vs. then. Her oldest is 10. I can send you a link if you want. The draw for me is she talks about how easy it is now to keep her house orderly.
As far as teaching kids to stick things out, I have a strong opinion about that. If you signed yourself up for a class- say pottery or piano or French lessons- and you absolutely hated it, would you make yourself finish the class? And if you did stick it out, what would you have learned? That yes- you really do hate learning French and are super glad it is over? That you wish would have saved the money and time and quit sooner?
I absolutely HATE seeing kids at the pool each summer sobbing during swim lessons while the moms sit on chairs and talk about teaching perseverance. There is more than one way to teach a kid to swim.
If it was a choice between going to school and having no school at all, I would ask my kids to stay in school. But if there is an option, I would let them choose, especially if they really don't like school and are not thriving there. Some things are not optional... everyone has to learn math. But the when and where are.
I would totally bring the two boys home and not care a jot what people thought. At the same time, I tell my family that we needed to drastically reduce the amount of stuff in our house to make the best of our home life. If they were willing to do that, even as an experiment (put it all in storage and just keep the bare minimum in your house), then I would feel much more at ease, and even relieved: clear out the clutter and deal with the people, since people are what matter most
__________________
Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
SQUILT Music Appreciation
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knowloveserve
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| Posted: Nov 12 2015 at 8:54pm | IP Logged
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Thank you for taking the time to write all this out Jen! I really appreciate your thoughtfulness in addressing this...
Mackfam wrote:
? What is your prayer life like?
? How often are you able to get to the Sacraments? especially confession and spending quiet time in front of the Blessed Sacrament? <-- PRIORITY WORTH BRAINSTORMING!
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1. I say a morning offering every day. And my family has gotten much better about prioritizing a rosary a few times a week. My goal on a personal level, is daily. My husband and I pray before bed together every night.
2. Here is an interesting red flag for me! We bought the house we did because it's within walking distance to our parish. I always consoled myself that if I did nothing else right as a parent/educator, at least we went to Mass every day. With the school routine, this is much, much difficult and we frequently miss daily Mass now. As homeschoolers, we got up, got dressed and went to Mass. Then breakfast, a quick cleanup and morning basket etc... as a school family now, the boys have to be up, dressed in uniform, get a lunch packed, and have eaten breakfast in time to fast long enough to receive the Sacrament. This requires major discipline and organization... not our strong point. So daily Mass attendance has suffered a serious decline since private school started. And I hate that. It's almost enough by itself to make me want to ditch brick & mortar school! Confession is monthly and Holy Hour weekly.
Quote:
? Do you have a morning routine that is fairly consistent?
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Trying to figure out my new normal still. Morning sickness (aka, all-day-sickness) set us back a lot. And now that I'm mostly feeling better its trying to be a military commander to the boys to get them dressed, fed and out the door. In short... no.
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? Have you identified the virtues God is stretching you/your family toward during this time so you can focus on the good?
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I have found immense peace is just "doing the next right thing" lately. Ive given up "Big Picture" thinking (because its overwhelming and terrifying) in favor of living moment to moment. Wish I'd done this years ago. My "joy" level has increased significantly. Letting go. Surrender. Trust. Major themes God is teaching my family this year.
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? Are you doing some spiritual reading - even 15 minutes a day?
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Usually, yes!
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? How about your personal care and health? Sleep? Vitamins? Decent meals?
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Yes, insofar as I'm able. Wish I went walking more but find it very daunting with my little kids lately... 
Quote:
? Kids habits: can you identify two basic habits that, if mastered, would help your day along?
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Prompt obedience? (isn't that everyone's answer?) More order with dressing/undressing. My laundry is out of control and its infuriating to find clean clothes in the dirty laundry bins... Also my 6 year old is still having regular accidents (we are in the middle of medical investigating for that...)
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? Your habits: can you identify two habits that, if mastered, would help you manage your day?
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I desperately want to wake up before everyone for prayer time and solitude time!!! Ive wanted this for years but with pregnancies and nurslings and dealing with night time issues (we have a sleepwalker and a child who wakes with night terrors), I'm always so tired that I don't get out of bed until I'm responding to some minor emergency... 
Quote:
? Do you spend any/a lot of time on social media looking for ideas? How do you feel when you do this? Are you inspired and motivated? If yes, keep visiting others! If you're only reading/visiting online spots that validate you, or you allow yourself to feel inadequate by virtue of comparison, stop clicking around! Immediately.
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I thankfully learned this a couple years ago. Discouragement is not of God, so I quit most of my social media habits. I only read 2-3 blogs a couple times a month now and I only visit Pinterest with a specific intention. Facebook added too much "noise" to my very noisy life, so I quit it too.
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HOME MANAGEMENT
PRIORITY 1 --> ** WHAT IS MANAGING YOU? Make a list THIS WEEK of the "basic living conditions" you feel you must constantly manage with the littles...the ones that you feel are preventing you from creatively managing and ordering your day. Sit down with your husband and your list. Brainstorm it. Consider the idea of "freedom within boundaries." Set some boundaries and consider how you can provide freedom within them - THEN insist on the responsibility of tidying up. What are these living conditions that are ruling your day and preventing you from feeling a sense that you are managing the day?
PRIORITY 2 --> ** DEAL WITH BASIC CLUTTER: Find a room or claim a room in your home (garage, closet, bedroom, corner of a room) and let it be a dump zone for holding bins for awhile. Obviously, it's better if this can be a room with a door - but work with what you've got. Start in one room and bin up EVERYTHING you don't use on a daily basis and that doesn't fit the purpose of that room. EVERYTHING. This shouldn't take you longer than one day to complete one room...an afternoon if you're motivated. Don't sort, visit with, or consider things going into bins - if you use it --> leave it...if you don't use it --> bin it. If you are having trouble deciding what to keep - pretend your husband has just come home and told you you're moving to a two bedroom apartment in Europe - and let that be your guide. You're only keeping out the most essential and the loveliest of your things. Clear your desk, dresser, counters. Live with less. Much less. You can sort and deal with the bins later.
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Yes. Yes. Yes. It's the sort and deal with later that is the problem. We moved in this house 6 years ago. There are STILL some unpacked bins!!!!! The primary issue is that I am a minimalist and my husband hoards. It is very difficult to get authorization to get rid of anything!
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PRIORITY 3 --> KID STUFF ** If you have things like busy boxes out - remove them. Immediately. They're magnets for clutter and destruction. Clear ONE SHELF in your living area and keep out only the LOVELIEST of toys that fit on ONE SHELF. Put everything else away. This includes toys in the kids rooms. Put it ALL AWAY. Consider it temporary - Advent is a GREAT time to do this and that's just around the corner anyway! Get a head start on it!
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Yes. Our toys are at a minimum already due to my ruthless nature but it's mostly a matter of the children just finding other things/books/clothes/dishes/food that they smuggle away and ruin or stash or throw all over... they are wild! But only when they aren't flooding the bathroom.... 
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PRIORITY 4 --> WHAT IF THE PROBLEM ISN'T "STUFF" CLUTTER - The above exercise may result in the realization that you may not have a lot of "stuff clutter" - if not, what IS cluttering your space? Unrealistic expectations? Lack of chores for the children? Lack of accountability for the children? For you? A sense of not knowing where to start?
** Make a simple list of the home management skills you THINK you should be exercising daily, weekly, seasonally.
** What stands in your way of completing this list? That will tell you pretty quickly if you have a "stuff challenge" or an "attitude challenge" to prayerfully tackle.
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Attitude challenge, mostly.
Needed:
1-Routine
2-Clear expectations.
3-Clear boundaries.
4-Enforced boundaries.
5-Outside time or large muscle movement indoors
6- More stories. I feel like I've neglected reading to the wild ones because they'd much rather run amok than listen to a story. This is where steps 1-5 would help...
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HOMESCHOOLING
I'm torn here - and that's probably because I really can't answer this. This is a question ONLY you and your husband can ultimately decide.
Is homeschooling doable for you? Yes, I think so, but not unless you figure out what is blocking you from feeling that you can reasonably manage your home and children in this season of life. Emphasis on reasonable and season of life. What do you think is reasonable for your current season of life? (Expecting #7, little kids - teens, husband and home - that's AN INTENSE SEASON by the way!) Have you written that down and allowed that to hold you accountable - this idea of what your reasonably managed home looks like? That would be another list/exercise I'd complete. Write it down and ask your husband if it is indeed reasonable, and where your obstacles/speed bumps are?
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A simple but perfect answer. I need to answer the question of what is reasonable given my current challenges. And what is holding me back from achieving reasonable?
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I think...this is a decision I'd table for the time being. Commit to pray about it with a pen and paper in hand every day (and by that I mean journal everything that comes to mind when you pray about it). Talk to your husband honestly about it. Make more lists - what are your biggest challenges? What would you need to change (anything?) to be able to effectively communicate and foster an education at home? I would choose a date on my planner that lived somewhere during Christmas break and make a date with my husband to discuss and make the decision at that time. I'd bring my lists and give myself time to have SEVERAL LONG, GOOD CRYING SESSIONS in the shower BEFORE this date so I could get as much emotion out of the way as possible.
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Thank you so much. I need to spend more time making lists! Posting lists! Being accountable to lists! And to put myself in a prayerful, considerate state before making any decision... how can I get to that point. Saints of home management, pray for me!!!
__________________
Ellie
The Bleeding Pelican
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knowloveserve
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 31 2007
Location: Washington
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| Posted: Nov 12 2015 at 9:09pm | IP Logged
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SeaStar wrote:
OK- first, lots of
I only have two kids, so I don't have the numbers that you are blessed with, but I can give you some insight about myself. Even when I had NO kids, I was not an orderly, everything in its place person. My problem: I just did not know where to put things, so I would have piles around for ages trying to decided what to do with them. Heck- I am still that way! Having kids has not helped that problem. I suffer from inertia/stuff paralysis. I have come to realize that the only answer for me is to nix the stuff, as much as I can (which is not easy). I am a lot happier doing without stuff (yes, even books), then with trying to organize and clean stuff all. the. time.
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YES!!! My major problem isn't that I think we have too much stuff... but I don't know where to put anything in this home! My "pantry" space is minimal, so I have food items piled on shelves with dishes. My bathroom is tiny and has no storage so I cram towels in a cubby that doesn't fit in the hallway. My linens have no home, so they share a dresser with a toddler who throws them all over. My picture books are currently homeless in a closet except a monthly basket I keep out. Etc... I'm not good at using what little space I have effectively and I'm always rushing around just shoving things on any available surface.
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I am not a true minimalist, but the idea inspires me. Recently I have been following a family on FB: 7 kids (think- might be eight) and they homeschool and have been on a minimalist journey. The mom talks a lot about how this has been so helpful for them- she posts lots of pictures, which always motivate me- and talks a lot about how they live now vs. then. Her oldest is 10. I can send you a link if you want. The draw for me is she talks about how easy it is now to keep her house orderly.
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I married a man who would've been amazing during the Depression era. He saves everything. He resists all my purging. Its been a delicate spot in our marriage... but one I have to live with.
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As far as teaching kids to stick things out, I have a strong opinion about that. If you signed yourself up for a class- say pottery or piano or French lessons- and you absolutely hated it, would you make yourself finish the class? And if you did stick it out, what would you have learned? That yes- you really do hate learning French and are super glad it is over? That you wish would have saved the money and time and quit sooner?
I absolutely HATE seeing kids at the pool each summer sobbing during swim lessons while the moms sit on chairs and talk about teaching perseverance. There is more than one way to teach a kid to swim.
If it was a choice between going to school and having no school at all, I would ask my kids to stay in school. But if there is an option, I would let them choose, especially if they really don't like school and are not thriving there. Some things are not optional... everyone has to learn math. But the when and where are.
I would totally bring the two boys home and not care a jot what people thought. At the same time, I tell my family that we needed to drastically reduce the amount of stuff in our house to make the best of our home life. If they were willing to do that, even as an experiment (put it all in storage and just keep the bare minimum in your house), then I would feel much more at ease, and even relieved: clear out the clutter and deal with the people, since people are what matter most
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Thank you for this. Those thoughts on perseverance are good ones. I'll have to think about that more... and pray for me, my friend... to get a handle on ordering what is hanging us up here while still respecting my husband's wishes!!!
In reading this and Jen's response actually, I think it's clear to me that the major problem isn't a stuff problem but my little one's destructive habits. I need to really figure out how to give them what they need and how to establish and enforce really good picking up after self habits.
Also, last thought... part of what's been difficult seems to be a direct RESULT from school. With homeschooling, my children have very clear duties with chores... they weren't perfect at execution but they were helpful. Now, by the time school gets out, and then homework gets done and family dinner gets done... they are just burned out and have very little will to do their evening chores... either AT ALL (with some sons) or WELL. This in turn, leaves me waking up to an already neglected home since I'm having to make up for the lack of domestic productivity my children are now offering. Part of this is their poor behavior, I know. But part of it I understand, they are just tired from school and want to relax and not deal with another "assignment". Free time is so precious nowadays... and recreational reading has suffered major casualties, which breaks my heart of course. 
School. What good has it offered my family? It gets in the way of life!!! I don't honestly know if it's been a worthwhile journey...
__________________
Ellie
The Bleeding Pelican
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Nov 13 2015 at 8:06am | IP Logged
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I don't think I would dismiss how good school has been for your 5th grader. It sounds like it might have been a worthwhile experiment if only to see how much he thrives there. It is okay if your different children have different needs. If it were up to *me*, I would probably bring the other two home if they are both miserable and you are miserable.
Lots of empathy. I am in the throes of all day sickness myself right now, and I am completely overwhelmed at the state of our home. Completely. Order around here has only ever been something teetering on a precipice, and it went tumbling weeks ago. I tried to express my feelings of hopelessness to my husband this morning, and his response was, well, less than helpful, lol. I mean, I wasn't ACTUALLY suggesting we burn the house down as a legitimate course of action  .
Anyway, even with that second trimester energy boost, the chaos from the first trimester survival mode is really hard to rebuild from! I am sure that Jen's suggestions are the best place to start. The only thing that keeps me going right now is being able to have the boys tidy (though, without my being actively involved at the moment, it is a relative term, but at least the floors get picked up) the main level of the house each day before my husband gets home. I can't imagine if I didn't have that help. Yesterday was the first time in a month that I felt like I could sit up and fold laundry without dry-heaving and weeping because everything stinks (I have no idea anymore what stinks and what doesn't--all odor is offensive).
I totally didn't mean to turn your plea for help into my own cries of despair  . But you are not alone in these struggles.
One thing I have reflected on as I see my home crumbling this time around is that both my husband and I are ENFPs, and that it REALLY IS harder for us to implement this whole practical, home management ideal. Temperamentally, dh leans more towards the choleric side, and I am more sanguine, but ultimately, we share weaknesses that include very poor practical skills. And in all likelihood, the majority of our kids ALSO share these weaknesses.
Quote:
| When it comes to conceiving ideas and starting projects, especially involving other people, ENFPs have exceptional talent. Unfortunately their skill with upkeep, administration, and follow-through on those projects struggles. Without more hands-on people to help push day-to-day things along, ENFPs' ideas are likely to remain just that – ideas. |
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http://www.16personalities.com/enfp-strengths-and-weaknesses
I am not sure how we go about addressing this. I do know that I've learned that if one of us is inspired to make something happen, we just need to go with it even when it doesn't make sense, because even if there are a million other things that should logically take priority, we won't actually DO those things, and delaying just means that nothing gets done rather than "important" things getting done.
I also know that I've wept because *I* had a Type-A mother who I now realize helped me survive and succeed at life in a way I couldn't have on my own, which is lovely until I realize that my poor children got ME. I really want a .gif of Minnie Driver in Return to Me crying, "What was God thinking!!??" because it totally expresses my feelings of late.
And that is a whole lot more about me to say that, while I'm not saying it is impossible or just give up now, I am saying that you have to look at your own temperament and determine what is realistic for you, not just in the reality of life in the trenches with toddler-terrorists, but in living with yourself. This past summer (before I was pregnant), I listened to the audio book of Gretchen Rubin's Better Than Before, and it really helped me see habit formation and motivation through the lens of different temperaments and approaches. Honestly, I was doing okay and making some baby steps in the right direction until I got smacked down again with m/s.  But I find that all the different personality and temperament sorters offer their own insights into human nature, and this was no exception. It helped, too, to see why my first two kids are SO VERY different regarding chores and such, but also how it is easier for me to say absolute, "Nos" than it is to follow the more conventional advice of, "Moderation in all things..."
Anyway, lots and lots of , Ellie.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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SeaStar
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Lots of good advice here from everyone, Ellie.
Picking up and keeping order is a struggle in any house, I guess, no matter how many people live there!
We moved 18 months ago into a house that has roughly 50% of the storage space of our old house. At first I was aghast and tried to think of ways to make it all fit. I had already purged a ton before the move, after all! Sheesh.
After more intense purging I have realized two things:
1. We still have way too much stuff... as in more stuff than we use or need on a regular basis. My mindset is all wrong: my house is not a storage unit: It is a place to LIVE in. If I don't get a handle on that, then my kids will be grown and gone and I will have spent a majority of my time picking up/putting away and/or asking them to. Ugh
2. I am asking my kids to maintain order in an environment that is stacked against them. In other words... you have to have a place to put things away- a place that is easy and accessible to little people who don't want to stack, organize or make a spot by shuffling around five other items the way a mom would.
What does less look like? Families of nine with one towel per person with one extra. It took me awhile to think about that... one towel per person means there is only one extra to store on a shelf. Not one towel per person extra, just one extra. Is that even doable? Apparently so, because it's being done.
Smaller wardrobes... a ton smaller. Less laundry, fewer hangers, less to fold and put away. Less to clean up when the toddler pulls everything out of a drawer. Less to sort through and pack away for the next kid. Less money spent.
Fewer toys... more creativity. More time spent outside. More inventing your own toys. Less to pick up. Less to organize...
My ds is a hoarder, and my dh, while he doesn't have *a lot* of stuff, likes to hold on to what he has, so that makes it hard. But to be brutally frank, I have bought the majority of items in our house: books, school stuff, books, clothing, books, food , books, toys... yep, pretty much all my purchases. The problem starts and probably ends with me. If I modeled owning less and being happy more, my kids would follow.
All of which does not solve your problem... but just know you are not alone
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SallyT
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I have nothing helpful to add but hugs and love. I wish I were there to help both Ellie and Lindsay in some physical way -- because, hey, fifty-one actually feels pretty energetic. So I'll have to pray for you energetically, at the very least, to find peace and order that you can live with.
Meanwhile, Ellie, my impulse is to say to listen to your heart where your unhappy-at-school children are concerned. But I think Jen is right that you should listen *prayerfully* and with discernment, and not in a hurry.
And CONGRATULATIONS. NEW BABIES!! I am so happy for you both, even as I know reality on the ground is complicated.
Much love!
Sally
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Erica Sanchez
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If you take the two boys out of school, Ellie, could you use their tuition money for outside help? Cleaning, a dinner service and/or babysitting? If so, that is what I would do until you reach second semester unless you could financially do it longer. And then I'd work on organization and decluttering and habit training.
This is a crazy time and I feel for you! I feel like I am in the same boat most days so know you are not alone. Like there is no end in sight, like I will never catch up. I joke that I need Cash to take all of the kids away for a week so I can spend most of that time dealing with paper and the rest dealing with clothes. And then immediately following, a week of boot camp for the kids. In my mind, that would fix everything! I'd have to do habit training on myself of course which would also solve so many things. In the big picture our kids are fine, good Catholic kids and that has to be enough most days. I bet that is true for you as well. :)
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Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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Aagot
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Just a week, Erica? Wow! I could use a month
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Aagot
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I love all the advice you got, Ellie.
If it were me, I would pull the two unhappy kids out but not until Christmas. In the mean time is there anyone who could help you get a handle on the home management side of things? Even if they just watch the littles, while you organize.
Then after that was organized, I would start the training of the littles while the older ones are still in school. Then over Christmas the olders get the training. Your 7th and 5th graders can do their own laundry. How about giving them a couple of nights a week to cook dinner? Prep breakfast muffins or burritos over the weekend?
What would happen if you just have 3 outfits (out)for each child. Yes, you would do laundry 3 times a week but the amount would be far less each time.
One bowl, plate, cup, fork etc for each person (just rinse and reuse until after dinner when they go in the dishwasher)
A few books (maybe 5 or less for each child out at a time)and one favorite toy/set for each.
The kids have lots of energy and need to get it out. You want to walk. At least have everyone start the day doing calisthenics. Any chance you can combine those two needs? When my boys are Tasmanian devils, I make them run the stairs or do jumping jacks. Jump rope and swinging are also great. Maybe every hour you can shove them outside for 15 minutes (or the other way around, )
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Erica Sanchez
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I know! It's laughable that I could get through my paper clutter in one week. :)
Ellie, we are with you in spirit. I do wonder if your morning sickness is exacerbating everything else and I hope once you are past that, things become less overwhelming. The others ladies gave such excellent advice. I am reading it and soaking it in with you.
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Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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CrunchyMom
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Erica Sanchez wrote:
If you take the two boys out of school, Ellie, could you use their tuition money for outside help? Cleaning, a dinner service and/or babysitting? If so, that is what I would do until you reach second semester unless you could financially do it longer. And then I'd work on organization and decluttering and habit training.
This is a crazy time and I feel for you! I feel like I am in the same boat most days so know you are not alone. Like there is no end in sight, like I will never catch up. I joke that I need Cash to take all of the kids away for a week so I can spend most of that time dealing with paper and the rest dealing with clothes. And then immediately following, a week of boot camp for the kids. In my mind, that would fix everything! I'd have to do habit training on myself of course which would also solve so many things. In the big picture our kids are fine, good Catholic kids and that has to be enough most days. I bet that is true for you as well. :)
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I can't tell you how many times over the years I have wished I could just get a week or two with the kids in school and the little ones in daycare
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Mackfam
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I started this response yesterday...and I've just grabbed snatches of time here and there in pieces responses so I apologize if it reads dis-jointed.
knowloveserve wrote:
| So daily Mass attendance has suffered a serious decline since private school started. And I hate that. It's almost enough by itself to make me want to ditch brick & mortar school! |
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I noticed that this response indicated some angst and turmoil. Getting to Mass is so wonderful and you're so blessed to be so close to the Sacraments! St. Francis de Sales gives such practical and helpful direction - especially to us as mothers!
St. Francis de Sales, Introduction to the Devout Life, excerpting from Ch. 3 wrote:
ÒDevotion is to be practised differently by the nobleman, the workman, the servant, the prince, the widow, the young girl, the wife. Even more than this, the practice of devotion has to be adapted to the strength, life-situation and duties of each individual.
Do you think, dear Philothea, that it is suitable for a Bishop to desire to live the life of a hermit like a Carthusian monk? If people with a family were to want to be like the Capuchins not acquiring any property, if a workman spent a great deal of time in church like the member of a religious order, and if a religious was always subject to being disturbed in all sorts of ways for the service of his neighbour like a Bishop, would not such devotion be ridiculous, disorderly and intolerable?
Indeed, Philothea, devotion in no way spoils anything if it be true, rather it makes everything perfect. When it conflicts with any person's legitimate occupation, it is without doubt false.
Everyone becomes more pleasant in one's state of life by joining it with devotion. Devotion makes the care of the family peaceful, the love of husband and wife more sincere, the service of the ruler more loyal, and every sort of occupation more pleasant and more loveable.Ó |
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Everything orders so harmoniously in light of this direction. While I'd love to get to daily Mass as often as I'm physically able, there are times that my vocation demands otherwise. In those times, rather than allowing myself to long for something that St. Francis de Sales characterizes as false devotion (because it would be keeping me from fulfilling the duties of my vocation), I can choose to be content in working out my path to holiness through the ordinary duties of my day - whether that's catching up with home management paperwork, cleaning toilets, potty training my 2 yo, making dinner, unpacking boxes, or organizing a bookshelf. It's a fidelity to the little duties of my day and true devotion is worked out right there. That idea is so practical and allows me to choose contentment (resulting in peace) in just doing the next thing.
knowloveserve wrote:
| I think it's clear to me that the major problem isn't a stuff problem but my little one's destructive habits. |
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This is great - you've identified exactly what you've got to do then! Habit training! Pick one habit, brainstorm it to the N-th degree, plan to spend 6-8 weeks gently but firmly moving it into the daily vernacular of your home life.
good actions --> lead to --> good habits --> which lead to --> virtue
Start by brainstorming the good actions that need to happen and the fruit of your diligent efforts will be virtue! This is no easy task - especially when you're pregnant, , and have littles! Trust me - I know! So when I'm in this boat ALL of my energy goes here. Invest here and the road starts to smooth before you.
Also, since you said this isn't a stuff issue, it sounds like you might need to create some landing zones and storage spaces so that as you train those "good actions" to build good habits and virtue there is a definite place for things to go.
knowloveserve wrote:
Needed:
1-Routine
2-Clear expectations.
3-Clear boundaries.
4-Enforced boundaries.
5-Outside time or large muscle movement indoors
6- More stories. I feel like I've neglected reading to the wild ones because they'd much rather run amok than listen to a story. This is where steps 1-5 would help... |
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Great list! You've got your marching orders and you know exactly where to start.  Sit down with your husband and, one point at a time, expand this list into workable steps. Just ask yourselves questions as you brainstorm --> (don't answer these questions here - this is just me thinking of questions off the top of my head (and some of them are from my notebook - questions I use when talking with my own husband to brainstorm challenges. They're only meant to help get the ball rolling! You and your husband will come up with better questions!)
** God is a God of order - how can our home reflect order while leaving room for flexibility and relaxation in our personal style?
** What are the current obstacles to order in our home? (Specific)
** Can I break down the obstacle-to-order into baby-steps in order to "eat the elephant" a bite at a time?
** Am I an obstacle to order? (why? what's reasonable for me that still exercises diligence on my part?)
** Are my children an obstacle to order? --> habit training
** What is our ordinary-day family routine?
** What are the extras we'd like to fit in if other duties are complete?
** What expectations need to be made clear for an ordinary day?
** How can we make boundaries clear and known?
** What are the ways our children would experience freedom within those boundaries?
** What are the obstacles/speed bumps in the way of clear boundaries?
** What kind of simple, natural consequences will be employed to enforce those boundaries once they're known and understood?
** Do I face faults/personal weaknesses that trip me up when enforcing boundaries? (everyone does!)
** How can I work with my husband to overcome that?
** What is the opposing virtue to that fault that I can target for myself?
** Can I identify little personal mortifications that will help me build spiritual muscle in that direction?
** How can I provide more outside time with safe boundaries and relative freedom within those boundaries?
** Are there 2-3 activities I can brainstorm that would work for large muscle movement indoors?
** How can I set myself up for success in reading more to the children? (Baskets near my comfortable chair so that when I'm not feeling well, I don't have to move to get a book?)
** Are my reading time expectations realistic?
** Can I employ music to help with movement (thinking of *head/shoulders/knees/toes* type of music with large motor skill movements)
** How can I set activities up so that children/family members are set up for success?
One more thought as you consider what is reasonable for you at this current season of life is in figuring out your intuitive-seasonal sense of home management. <-- ...a term you probably won't find in the Martha Stewart manual.
Intuitive --> what comes naturally to you...lists? piles? boxes? minimal? cheerfully-tchotchke?
Seasonal --> what season of life...pregnant? sick? parenting lots of littles under 8? taking care of parents?
It's different for everyone...and honestly, it shifts through seasons of life. Generally, this is where beauty INTERSECTS WITH the path-of-least-resistance. Exercise your diligence right there!
Ok...gotta run! Time to finish up my Morning Basket plans for the next term! I can hardly believe how fast the year flies by sometimes!
Everyone has been so generous with their empathy and ideas, Ellie! Praying you'll be able to take encouragement and ideas from this thread, confide in your husband and gain a fresh perspective that brings hope and prayerful action! Posting with a prayer! 
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
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ekbell
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Would pulling the 7th grader out seem more reasonable from the viewpoint of maintaining a proper life-work balance?
I remember the trouble a high school friend of mine had balancing his mother's need for household support which he being a throughly good man was unable to ignore and the demands of school. I'm pretty sure that this was the main reason for him not doing well enough to go on to further education (he ended up married with children and managing a local Tim Horton's last I heard).
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knowloveserve
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Thank you everyone for all your thoughts and support. My family just got faced with a crisis situation that has us living in the simple, but freeing moment-to-moment. I will revisit this when given an opportunity to reflect. In the meantime, I thank you in advance for any prayers you might spare our way.
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Ellie
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SeaStar
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Praying, Ellie
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SallyT
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Prayers for you, Ellie.
Sally
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Pilgrim
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Praying for your family!
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CrunchyMom
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Prayers, Ellie.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: consistency: the value thereof
