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amyable
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I know this isn't the best message board to discuss these programs, but you guys "know" me and I hope with your varied experience you can help (and sympathize  )
The turns our lives have taken in the last few years have dh and I discussing either putting everyone back in school ($$$$!!) or doing some kind of "school in a box". Our top thoughts are Seton, Kolbe, and MODG but we are open to things like Keystone or American School. As my 2 oldest are in high and middle school, dh is *firmly* against unschooling in ANY form and in fact would rather the children jump through hoops to look good for college even if they *learn* nothing in the process. (A fact that makes me  and  and then  and  -- gotta love my man!)
Here are some things I need and some questions...
*Oldest is quite dyslexic, ADD...smart/creative but struggles with school. I need a good special services department. One that will put their stamp of approval on whatever accommodations they/we deem fitting. That stamp of approval is important to ME, because I am stressing big time with the weight of responsibility for her. I need to be able to say, for example "Kolbe said it was OK to do the tests open book, so it IS O.K." She does better with computer programs (help her focus) so online options are great.
*The rest of the kids are average to accellerated. Two love their Seton workbooks and the smartest one HATES them. Two prefer things to be easy to work through and be DONE, not too open ended. This is especially true of my 7th grader, but I realize that in all the programs things get more open ended (less workbooky) as you get into these higher grades.
*I need something that is the easiest for ME. I will be spending much time trying to get my oldest up to speed for college...*I'm* the dyslexia tutor, math tutor, read-alouder, etc. I need the younger ones to be able to "open and go" as much as possible and not teacher intensive.
*Has anyone done Seton in early grades and then moved fully to Kolbe or another for middle/high? I'm thinking of doing that
*My hope (don't know if this is at all possible with our choices) is to be a mom like Joyce Swann -- with all the children working semi-silently around me and moving around just answering questions, and them plugging away at their pace, finishing fast for some and slow for others. She did this with Calvert.
*I'd love something where the children can "test out" - i.e. if there is a vocabulary test and they know it all, they just take the test and are done, w/o having to do the work.  Heck, I'd love this for a whole school year.
*Over time, for many varied reasons, we have lost *all* the older two kid's friends (they've moved, gone to school, parents pulled away or whatever). We are now officially not moving - and it seems like 98% of the locals put their kids into brick and mortar schools. I'd love something with either online support for the KIDS or something easy enough for ALL of us that we are done quickly and can travel far and wide to find friends...or at least get out of this stupid house.
*There is potential that OUR kids could enter HS with the exception of our oldest...so I need something that will transition well to the local Catholic high schools.
*Two of my girls (7th and 2nd grader) have discussed seriously having a vocation as a nun. I want to encourage this and prep them for it with their curriculum. This is the one thing that has "popped" into dh's head while praying so I think it's serious (otherwise we are getting NO help )
OK, I'm going to stop here. I know I'll have more questions as people start talking.
Just FYI I'd say my two biggest needs are special services support and open and go for the littles who are both excellent readers and *could* read directions, etc.
Please pray for us, too...many many dreams of mine are dying crashing deaths and I'm feeling a little more lost than usual.  I just want to do what is best for our family and I am feeling no peace about ANY choice.
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Amy
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LLMom
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Amy,
As a veteran homeschooler, I feel your angst. I finally realized that my homeschool ideal and my homeschool reality do not match---and I am ok with that now. (well, most of the time ) I felt so overwhelmed when I had 7 at home, one being a high schooler, one special needs (middle school), two grade schoolers, a preschooler and two babies thrown in the mix.  I needed some structure and someone to plan. I tried both MODG and Seton because they both have special services programs. I did Seton for two years. It IS more of an open and go program for kids, but I got overwhelmed with the amount of paperwork needed to turn in, and the kids fussed a lot about how boring it was. But the special services program is top-notch. They worked with all of my ds needs through individual phone counseling. But ultimately I went to MODG because I am a CM/classical homeschooler at heart. MODG does have those aspects to it. I love the read a louds and discussions, but it is more mom intensive. But there is less paperwork to turn in and only in middle school and up. I do love that children can take classes with a teacher and other students. I have also used their special services too. It is really good as well. I liked that I worked with one person, and she got to know my son. I am still with MODG and quite happy with it. It prepared my son for high school, who went this past year for the first time.
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Lisa
For veteran & former homeschool moms
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Becky Parker
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LLMom wrote:
Amy,
I liked that I worked with one person, and she got to know my son. |
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This is one of the reasons we stick with MODG. My consultant knows my children and based on that knowledge she can recommend different resources that might work for them. I don't have to explain my ds's learning difficulties with someone new each time.
It is more mom-intensive, but this year we discovered the on line learning courses they are now offering. What a blessing for my dd! She is very social but her two best friends are going to school and she was fearful that she would be all alone. Through the on line classes with MODG she has met cyber-friends and she gets the social interaction she craves. The religion discussions were excellent this year, and the really cool thing is that the discussion in the on line class spurred more discussion between her and I, which was something I didn't expect. I have her signed up for the book club they offer for next year. She will discuss the history books she is reading with other students in the same grade and a moderator. I think she will really enjoy that.
Coming back to address the preparation for highschool. I have only one son that went to highschool (just graduated this year) so far and he did excellent. I remember his freshman math teacher telling me how well prepared he was in algebra. He was also way more than prepred for his english class, and the Latin he took at home definitely helped him in Spanish. So I would say he was well prepared for highschool.
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Becky
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Martha
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It might help me to know what has been working for you up to now?
Sadly special services at all 3 amounts to telling you to do whatever you feel best. There's a lot of lingo and such there, but IMO that's what it boils down to.
We fully enrolled for Seton 9th grade with my oldest a few years ago and it was an epic disappointment for us. I wrote about it somewhere on my blog ... Don't have time to look it up right now.
I'll try to be quick and you can ask for clarification if you need it.
Best of 3 in order for flexibility. Obvious IMO. :)
MODG
Kolbe
Seton
Best for literature/history
Kolbe
MODG
Seton
Best for writing
Tie for Kolbe and Seton. Tho I prefer Kolbe for high school and Seton for 3rd-8th.
Best for science
Kolbe for rigor
MODG for enjoyment/ease
Best for math
Meh. I hate Saxon. I love MCP with Math Mammoth a close second. I use Lials for high school. My kid with math issues does key to and life of Fred.
Much of it will depend on your educational philosophy and needs. Seton does not have anywhere near the required book reading of Kolbe and MODG, so using their special services dept for your dyslexic dc might be best. For a kid who loves reading, Kolbe or MODG might be great.
Do you want a daily breakdown? (Seton & some Kolbe plans) or is a loose weekly course objective enough? (MODG)
Would it be helpful to see which ones match up closest to using materials that you have already liked?
Have you printed off the sample lesson plans to get a feel for them?
Good luck and God bless! I know it's not an easy decision!
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Martha
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JennGM
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I don't have answers for the special needs question. But it sounds like you are looking for almost totally workbook method, or something that teaches your other children so you can teach your dyslexic daughter.
You have done Sonlight. Was that not organized and broken down enough?
Is it more accountability you need? Answering to someone you have paid and offers accreditation?
It seems you are drawn to more literature friendly methods, so would some children really balk at filling in workbooks or working on a computer if that is not how they learn?
You mentioned you have done Seton in past. Did your children work alone and quietly and finish without much help, or was there angst? Did you have to push them along?
I just know with my own situation that even if I had the most fabulous plans, perfect books, wonderful curriculum, everything down to a "T", it doesn't factor in my own children and their needs and habits. And I'm thinking our bad habits -- mine and theirs. I am not self-disciplined. They are not, either. They test me, with whining, balking, hastily and poorly done work, etc....testing, testing, testing... I have to stop and correct, work on these bad habits, one at a time, following through, checking up, etc.
It's not an answer, but just a thought. I don't even know who Joyce Swan is, but I can guarantee my homeschool will NEVER look like that because my boys are vocal and loud.
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amyable
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JennGM wrote:
| I don't have answers for the special needs question. But it sounds like you are looking for almost totally workbook method, or something that teaches your other children so you can teach your dyslexic daughter. |
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I think I'm leaning towards getting my 9th gr/dyslexic a curriculum that is modified enough that she can do much more on her own. We've tried something very mom intensive for her over the last two months and it hasn't been at all fair to the younger 4. That being said, she does need someone to work with her on things every day...so I was hoping for something less teacher intensive for the younger set too. My 7th grader liked Seton in the past - it was cut and dried for her. My 4th grader loved that she could get up at 6 AM, start her work and be done by 8 at the latest. My 2nd grader had to be dragged kicking and screaming through every workbook page we tried. Honestly, for her, I think it was boredom. It was too easy and dull for her.
So workbooks might be an option for some. (more below)
Quote:
You have done Sonlight. Was that not organized and broken down enough? |
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Sonlight was great as a booklist. Despite purchasing the IGs multiple times, I never wound up using them much at all because the questions they supplied were not what I needed. I still had to add in my own math, LA (hated theirs), writing,...everything but history! I also had almost NOTHING to show at the end of the year, except a stack of books. I know, I know, all you here are going..."SO? Stack of books sounds great!" But my family is just not leaning that direction anymore for multiple reasons.
Quote:
| Is it more accountability you need? Answering to someone you have paid and offers accreditation? |
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BINGO! Especially for my high schooler. I *know* I can just give her a mommy diploma, but the responsibility for *everything* in our lives, while at the same time having very little control of anything (long story that I shouldn't get into here) has crushed me, and I'm DONE. I don't want to be everybody's everything, getting nothing in return (we have next to nil local support in general, and all the local hs'ers go off to brick and mortar high schools), and the only thing I can possibly get rid of is the teaching! Or at least as much as possible. I just can't do it anymore. For my sanity I need to be able to say, "Mrs. X was her teacher, this was her book, I *told* her to study and helped here and there, but if she comes out awful It's *not my fault*" I can't say that when I'm doing everything from designing the curriculum to creating the tests to trying to motivate her (and all of them) to learn, etc. I think an outside teacher would be motivational if not a little panic inducing at first.
Is that awful?  It's how I've been feeling for a long time.
Quote:
It seems you are drawn to more literature friendly methods, so would some children really balk at filling in workbooks or working on a computer if that is not how they learn? |
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*I* am drawn to them. My kids could care less. They do all like a good book on tape or read aloud, but when I start turning it into *school*, I lose them. See above about the workbooks.
Quote:
You mentioned you have done Seton in past. Did your children work alone and quietly and finish without much help, or was there angst? Did you have to push them along? |
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See above. One LOVED it but then yes was bored from 8AM until the next morning, lol, one tolerated it because it was very black and white for her, and one hated it. My oldest also hated it when she used it, because of the dyslexia which at the time had not been formerly diagnosed. I could probably do the "quiet table schooling" with a few of them, but....
Quote:
| I don't even know who Joyce Swan is, but I can guarantee my homeschool will NEVER look like that because my boys are vocal and loud. |
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...and my girls NEVER STOP TALKING. I know, I'll never have the Swann family. So maybe it would take us longer, and be louder, but it seemed so much SIMPLER. They all used Calvert (and then American School, I think?), it was straightforward, they knew what was expected and then they did the next thing when they were done with the first thing.
I need simple. Very simple, and me NOT being accountable for the weight of the world.
If we had the money to put them all in Catholic schools right now we would probably be doing so --if there was a close one that had good dyslexia support, too, which there really isn't. And unfortunately the only truly devout girls school around here is a 45 min drive minimum.
And this isn't about what *I want* anymore (see above reference to all my dreams dying in a heap  ), it's about what we think we have to do next for many and varied reasons (which I'd be happy to talk about on a more personal level but not here).
I'm sorry I sound snippy and whiny. I truly don't mean to be and I'm very appreciative of the help of all of you ladies!!
(ETA: Coming back to add that my children all LOVE the computer and would probably be on them 24/7 if I let them, even for educational reasons. We're just techy.  )
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Amy
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amyable
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Martha, thank you in particular for that breakdown. I need a nice "chart" like that! Simple. I need simple.
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Amy
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CrunchyMom
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If you are inspired by Joyce Swann (whoever that is ), and she used Calvert, have you considered using Calvert?
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Lindsay
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amyable
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I have thought about it, Lindsay ... I've been put off in the past by their price, that they are not Catholic, and most of all that they only go up to 8th. But maybe it's worth revisiting.
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Amy
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Kristie 4
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Just disregard this please if it is not enough to the point or if you have heard all of it before- just my .02 
I have a dyslexic who just finished her 9th/10th year. I also spend more time with her some days than all of my other ones put together. We have found a few really helpful things, that I think would even work with the above programs (again, please excuse me if this is a repeat@):
~Audio: my dyslexic needs the audio for learning. She used Librivox for much of her history as well as ordering audio from the library. She used a mix of mp3 books and regular books for lit.
~Science: Khan academy worked wonders for this kid. Very visual and less reading. She also worked through Apologia Chemistry- I always said I would NEVER use this, and I did go through the areas that I didn't agree with as well as the fact that my dh is covering our beliefs with regards to all that fun stuff. But the mp3 of the entire book saved it for us- she followed along with the mp3 and I can say that she knows the whole book well with no input from me.
~Religion- This was our read aloud together, mixed with personal readings and lectures/talks.
I know this doesn't cover the accountability, but it is a way to help work with the choices alot of these providers will give.
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Kristie in Canada
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stellamaris
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Amy, I have very limited Internet this week, but I saw your post and I want you to know I am praying for you! Life can seem so difficult sometimes, but God knows your whole situation and He can bring great good out of your suffering. You are not alone, He is with you. He will guide your way and everything will be all right.
I have one word of practical advice For your high school aged children, be sure you use a program accredited by your state for any high school years they are at home if you plan to send them into an actual bricks-and-mortar school at some point. This is one advantage of Seton.
As far as Calvert goes, we used this curriculum for many years and for many children. It does use living books and has some CM aspects such as picture study. Unfortunately, as time went by, the curriculum became more and more cluttered and seemed to require more and more parent time. A lot of literary analysis is introduced in the early grades that didn't used to be part of the curriculum It is fairly parent intensive in the lower grades. I have read Alexandra Swann's book and I think her mom was a very disciplined woman, much more so than myself! I loved Calvert years ago, but when I tried to use it more recently, it was just too difficult with the three boys because I couldn't combine any subjects. If your children are able to read, write, and focus on their work without a lot of direction from you, it might be a good choice, but some of my guys weren't able to work independently so it didn't work for us when we tried it 3 or 4 years ago. Also, the science textbooks (which used to be fine) are the horrible new splashy and cluttered style of books that are being used routinely in schools today. Personally, they just bug me! I prefer the Nature Study/ living books approach.
On the positive side, Calvert is more thorough and is also more clearly laid out than most other programs. It is easy to just open the teacher's guide book and know what to do on any given day. If you want a standard private school curriculum, this would work for you. The cost seems high, but does include all books and supplies. We used the Teacher's Advisory to keep us on track, hand the feedback was motivating for the children, if you get the curriculum without the advisory service, you could use the math/writing/reading/history components and add in your own science and religion.
Have you considered Homeschool Connections for your older student? Another online option is Patrick Henry University (which we've used for AP courses).
Also, an online option (secular) for the lower grades is Time4Learning. Very structured, fact based, reading/multiple choice style material which covers all curriculum areas. Basic, dry, direct.
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Caroline
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amyable
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Thank you all, there is so much good information here and so much to think about. Kids are really sick here so my mind is fuzzy but at least I have a lot of time to think at 3 AM. (and 1, and 4 and 5 )
My mind keeps coming back to American School - because it seems easy, they only do a few classes (often just 2) at a time, and it's open book exams. Those things ALL sound spot on for my dd. But then just now I realized... if it's OK for an accredited school to do that for a diploma, *why don't I just do that at home* with my choice of books and exams, and call it good when she's done. I guess before yesterday I didn't think it was a "legal" option. I'm still not sure it is. I would still need to come up with assessments and a schedule, and the responsibility for everything would still be on my head. Hmmmmmm.
Kids need me so I'm off for a bit, but I'm so thankful for everyone's help, and I'm going to keep thinking and perusing.
Oh, one last question - is Switched On Schoolhouse Anti-Catholic? I think I know the answer to that, but I wanted to know for sure.
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Amy
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Martha
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I did some research on the Swann's some time back... I think there's a post here somewhere about my questions on it...
Anyways..
The biggest key with Joyce Swann was NOT what curriculum she used.
It was:
That she stuck to her plan
That she consistently, as in daily, executed that plan.
Really any program or method you actually use every day except for days dad is off work and Sundays is going to net some reward. (At the very least that adds 1/2 an academic calendar to each year, accerating the student as time goes by.)
The main reason Joyce Swann gave for using Calvert followed by American School were simple:
She didn't want to waste any time doing the planning.
They are well established and solidly developed, vs constantly changing newer programs.
She would automaticly be sent the next grade level program when completing the current one, vs having to take down time until the provider has open enrollment again.
Also, I agree wth a previous poster that both Calvert and American school have a much more cluttered and complicated program than they did when Swann used them.
SOS, I would avoid personally.
I hear tell k12 is so-so.
Oh and there are some other online catholic options too.
As a pp noted, there are audio and other compensational methods that would likely be suggested to help your dyslexic dc through any of the programs you might choose. But that child is simply going to take more of your time no matter what. I wager that would still be true even in public school. Sometimes it can be a full time job to get a decent IEP in place AND make sure it is actually used.
It sounds like it is less about what the kids need at this point than what you the teacher need? (which IS a de facto need of all your kids! A mom that has what she needs to get it done! )
Personally I have fallen into the trap if enrollment in online or other program thinking it would remove any pressure from my shoulders only to find it ADDS to it. I have the same duty to make sure they learn the materials and understand it, only then I also had the duty to use a schedule and program someone else selected. Ick.
Unless your state has a requirement for public school re entry you need to prepare for, I'd narrow it down to 3 programs I would be okay with using and let the high schooler select which one they are most interested in. And they need to know going in that they MUST finish it!
For the younger ones, I'd select the one I personally felt I would be the most likely to stick to implementing on a consistent basis.
Hth a bit.
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Martha
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amyable
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Martha wrote:
Personally I have fallen into the trap if enrollment in online or other program thinking it would remove any pressure from my shoulders only to find it ADDS to it. |
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*fingers in my ears* LALALALALALA I can't hear you!
You are so right, Martha, about many things still being on my shoulders if we go the online route. And I definitely think public or private school is out for this child, we were mainly thinking of that for the others (well, not public, but Catholic). I guess I was trying to find the *easiest* program that was still diploma potential for my dyslexic, to at least take the burden off from developing it, making tests, grading, etc, at least for the most part. Well, that would be my ultimate, anyway - we would settle for something MORE on my shoulders but then things have to give somewhere else.
I hear you on the Joyce Swann thing - yes, any program done consistently will get results. The problem I seem to be having is that my "programs" are SO open and loose, there is no end. Other than math where they are doing a lesson a day ad infinitum, the other subjects can consist of any number of texts and library books and experiences. I never know what is too little or enough. I don't mind so much for the younger crowd, but my 7th and 9th grader just seem to need something different now. And *I* certainly do.
I hope I don't sound argumentative, I'm not directing this all *at* you, Martha , just trying to think out loud in general. I really appreciate your insight.
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Amy
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Martha
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No, you don't seem argumentative to me.
If all you really need is:
Premade tests and assignments with book/text list
Someone to validate your student's grades with a transcript/diploma option
To have mostly independent materials where you mostly just need to verify they did it.
Then I think MODG might be just enough structure without the heavier load of Seton and Kolbe. My greatest concern with MODG and Kolbe is the extensive reading, however the booklist from MODG is much easier to find movies/audio for than Kolbe. Seton has a significantly smaller booklist, but good gracious did ever not ever want to see those books again by the time we finished analyzing them to death for an entire quarter. 
Another potential help in narrowing the field might be cost. For me, the kicker has always been cost. Whether I want to completely lift this off my shoulders or not, I can't afford to do that. Have you evaluated costs among your top 3-4 choices to see if there is a significant difference?
I'm not taking anything personal and I'm sure not attacking. Just talking options like I would if we were brain storming at my kitchen table with some coffee. Just a couple years ago I was spazzing about starting high school stuff. Now I'm not so scared and am slooowly starting to see some fruit. I want to encourage during this terrifyingly exciting time, not further freak anyone out.
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Kathryn
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As a mom with a dyslexic son as well as the other kiddos, I totally get the time intensive requirement to guide them thru getting some semblance of an education so I'm loving this topic and finding lots of great info!!
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Kathryn in TX
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Elena
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| Posted: June 27 2012 at 8:23pm | IP Logged
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I've had two kids with learning problems and one kid with an attitude problem. I've finally come to the conclusion that if they don't go to college...
it will still be okay!
My daughter with big learning problems is 13 (a year younger than your daughter) and I have her art classes and she is taking a cake decorating class and I hope to teach her to sew this summer. She loves to be creative and I think that is the niche for her. And if she can't do college work I think she can still be okay.
I say that as a mom who has two homeschool high school boys have gone on to other things rather than right into college and they're doing fine.
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Elena
Wife to Peter, mom of many!
My Domestic Church
One Day at a Time
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Cheryl
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| Posted: July 02 2012 at 10:21am | IP Logged
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Hi Amy!
I haven't been on these forums in awhile, but I'm in homeschooling planning mode. I saw your post and wanted to say I'll be praying for you. I have been feeling very fearful about the upcoming school year. I felt this way my first year of homeschooling, but took the plunge and have enjoyed the experience, for the most part, these past eight years. Now, I've been feeling doubt and insecurities about how I'm going to handle an eighth grader, sixth, fifth, first, preschooler and one year old.
The strange thing is that my dh is on board with this homeschool thing this year. We did standardized testing for the first time ever and he wants to do the planning with me. I'm hoping this will take off some of the burden I feel, but I wonder how the implementation of "our plan" is going to go. If I can't do it with accountability to him... maybe school will be an option. One thing that has helped me feel more at ease is thinking that education is not all about academics. I think that CM said discipline and atmosphere are 2/3. I may have started out imagining that by homeschooling my children, they would have been much farther along now academically, but the truth is: I have great kids. Homeschooling has helped them to be who they are today.
Sorry I'm giving myself a pep talk here. I need to spend more time in prayer. Email me or pm me if you want to chat some time.
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Cheryl
Wife to Bob ('97)
Mom to Matthew 13, Joseph 11, Sarah 10, Rachel 6, Hannah almost 4 and Mary 1
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Kathryn
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| Posted: July 02 2012 at 3:20pm | IP Logged
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Cheryl wrote:
One thing that has helped me feel more at ease is thinking that education is not all about academics. I think that CM said discipline and atmosphere are 2/3. I may have started out imagining that by homeschooling my children, they would have been much farther along now academically, but the truth is: I have great kids. Homeschooling has helped them to be who they are today.
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AGREED!!!
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Kathryn in TX
(dd 16, ds 15, dd 8, dd 5)
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mariB
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| Posted: July 03 2012 at 6:09am | IP Logged
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I agree with what Cheryl said:
"One thing that has helped me feel more at ease is thinking that education is not all about academics. I think that CM said discipline and atmosphere are 2/3. I may have started out imagining that by homeschooling my children, they would have been much farther along now academically, but the truth is: I have great kids. Homeschooling has helped them to be who they are today."
After 15 years of homeschooling I couldn't agree more. It has become our theme and utmost goal above all else. Character is so important! If we teach our kids the tools of learning they can do anything as young adults whether in college or whatever path they take!
But..I do still get anxious at times that I we did not do a boxed curriculum in high school..well we have done Seton, Kolbe, MODG...and it drove me nuts! Not to say that it can't be done. I did like MODG and I do like Seton's writing courses too. With Seton it helped to NOT do every single thing in the plan. I perused the plan to see what needed to be graded by Seton and what our son needed to work on. I love to write so teaching writing was not a problem because I did so many papers in high school similar to Seton's english programs. Seton is very helpful and they do want your child to succeed so they really try to work with you.
Praying for you as you and your husband decided what path to take!
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marib-Mother to 22ds,21ds,18ds,15dd,11dd and wife to an amazing man for 23 years
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Kolbe, Seton, MODG, etc....help
