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Kristie 4
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| Posted: Oct 02 2010 at 2:58pm | IP Logged
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Our days have been dragging into oblivion again, it seems like we picked up where we left off last year  We have been on a good track in times past, but as the kids get older and I add more onto the schedule it seems like I am pretty much drowning a lot of the time.
More particularly, I am overwhelmed, even after 11 years, of what is 'enough' to have on the kids 'lists'. When you look at dictation, writing, maybe a composition book, math, science, Latin (kids like Latin here), art, history, literature (and trying to get some discussion time in), grammar, and the list goes on, it seems so undoable to my tired mind...
We have usually schooled with a definite CM flavor- when I had only kids 7th grade and under we would have a morning reading time where I would cover some history, religion, and rotate the Nature Study, art and composer stuff, as well as poetry, then we would pray, do chores and begin our separate things. Now that I have a highschooler and an 8th grader their things take longer and the cosy morning read is not all that relaxing! They want to get on with what they are doing.
I have poured over the HOE and AO lesson plan groups as well as Jen's great posts and Theresa's awesome planning posts but my head is swimming.
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Kristie in Canada
Mom to 3 boys and one spunky princess!!
A Walk in the Woods
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Kristie 4
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| Posted: Oct 02 2010 at 3:04pm | IP Logged
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Oh, I should mention that my kids are in...2nd/3rd, 5th, 8th, and 10th.
I realised also that my post is somewhat fuzzy! 
What I am asking for is how do you plan out
1. what is 'enough'- what happens when your child is doing what you have given them but it has taken the whole day and they are not done? How do you know what is doable- after all, they need time to be and think and explore!
2.How do you schedule in the 'discussion' times with the teens, math teaching of multiple ages, read alouds with the littles and everything in between (how's that for a simple question- I am sure I have read umpteen books, blogs, and posts on this forum about all this but I feel like I just can't wrap my head around it at all right now!)
Humbly....
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Kristie in Canada
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ekbell
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| Posted: Oct 02 2010 at 4:46pm | IP Logged
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My oldest is starting grade seven work so I've also been struggling with this! (I also have children doing grade four, two and Kindergarten work).
I've noticed that high school and junior high are often set up with the student studying four or five subjects at a time and I've decided that this is a reasonable model to follow.
So my oldest is currently studying Math, English, Religion(catechism), History and Science.
After consultation with my oldest, we decided on Mater Lingua which has grammar, dictation, composition, short literature pieces and so on already laid out.
I'm using the RC History guides and For the Love of Literature as aids in planning out history which means that there will be music, art, literature and geography opportunities as part of her History studies.
As for how much is reasonable, I admit that I'm winging it subject by subject.
For math, I've simply told my daughter she needs to work on math for a certain length of time each day.
For English my daughter is doing the work as laid out. Religion involves a set period of time spent reading with discussion immediately afterwards.
With History and Science I am assigning work unit by unit with due dates with the expectation that she will spend an hour or two working on her assignments (these assignments and due dates do include meetings to discuss readings).
I'm keeping an eye on her level of stress and the amount of time she spends on her studies and will adjust her history and science assignments accordingly.
2. In the morning when I'm working with the younger children, I merely check that my oldest is working on her morning work (English and math). If she has a concern, she knows to ask me when I'm between 'lessons'.
After lunch I make a point of checking on her and correcting her morning work.
Major discussions are done after the younger children have gone to bed (one good reason for staggered bedtimes) as we are night owl types.
I must admit that math is one of the things that most of my children do independently most of the time. They know to come to me when they don't understand their assigned work but I rarely need to spend more than 15mins explaining things (the major exception has been long division). So multiple math lessons haven't been a problem.
Multiple spelling tests have been a problem, so I resorted to computer help (spelling city). There are fairly good computer programs for teaching math. If I had a problem with teaching multiple math courses, I'd likely look there or a tutor.
As for cosy read-alouds, my oldest hasn't particularly enjoyed read-alouds since she learned to read so she moves to her own work after Morning prayers. [it was rather disappointing five years ago when I realized that my oldest preferred reading books herself.]
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Oct 02 2010 at 9:30pm | IP Logged
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I'm so with you, Kristie! Once you add in high schoolers...and upper level students...and youngers...that morning time changes! We used to enjoy our Morning Basket of work together so much, but the ages of my children and the limits on my time required re-thinking that this year. My big kids do enjoy read aloud time, and they also like discussion time with me that is sans interruption...so we transferred our reading aloud to a teatime in the afternoon which is when the younger kids are napping.
Kristie 4 wrote:
| When you look at dictation, writing, maybe a composition book, math, science, Latin (kids like Latin here), art, history, literature (and trying to get some discussion time in), grammar, and the list goes on, it seems so undoable to my tired mind... |
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This IS overwhelming and challenging to work out. I know of several different CM families that work with high schoolers on down, and each has different ways they handle this. I worked hard to figure out the answer that fits our particular family and I finally feel like we've found something that works for us. We stagger the generous curriculum throughout the week...rather than trying to fit it all in every day. Each week, we work in every subject but each day offers a different variety of work. This is in itself very CM - if you look at her schedules you will see that her student's week was full, but each day offered a different variety of work.
There is a base of work that is done daily - for us that consists of:
history (which is also literature from the period)
religion
math
latin
language arts (which staggers further so that copywork would be one day, studied dictation one day, dictation & formal grammar work another day, more copywork another day...that kind of staggering...but every day some form of language arts.)
fine arts (again, staggers with the day so different days we do picture study, composer study, Shakespeare reading, art lessons
science/nature study)
Other families I've talked with do different things - some focus on their base of work for 6 weeks and then spend 2 weeks solid on fine arts and projects and make up work. Another family I know of simply works on what they consider their foundation and they choose a couple of things to add to their foundation for each term - so Term 1 they might do Picture Study and Geography...Term 2 they work on Composer Study and Shakespeare. We prefer to keep all of our subjects in the weekly line-up, but to stagger them...it's a slow and steady approach...consistent and generous. It's where we tend to do our best work.
Kristie 4 wrote:
| 1. what is 'enough'- what happens when your child is doing what you have given them but it has taken the whole day and they are not done? How do you know what is doable- after all, they need time to be and think and explore! |
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This is something different I had to do this year as well - I assigned a time to every lesson/subject on my children's lesson plans. My older students are expected to follow the time I have set aside for their reading/lesson. So, my 5th grader knows that from 8:30 - 9:00 he should be doing his history reading. We meet together weekly and he offers feedback, so I can observe throughout the week and if he's consistently trying to accomplish his reading. If he really needs more time, we can communicate together and I might change the time on his lesson plans. After 3 weeks I have a good idea of my student's capabilities and if the time allotted for every lesson/subject is reasonable.
I expect my students to give their full attention to a subject for the time assigned, and at the end of the time period, set aside the book and move on to the next subject assigned. This keeps them moving forward, keeps variety in their day, and lets them know that there is a finite amount of time they are expected to work on a subject. So...if my 9th grader is frustrated with an algebra lesson, she knows that she must give her full attention and effort for 45 minutes (with my help if I'm available) and after that she sets it aside. She finishes all of her work for the day and at the end of the day we assess together just how much is left over, why it's left over, and if expectations for the day need to be adjusted...perhaps for that Algebra student I just need to adjust the number of problems completed...or perhaps something I wanted my 5th grader to write can be given orally. Now...if I have a child that has mis-used their time during the day, then that child still stops that subject at the time I have specified and moves on...BUT that child must complete their work later. That's a simple consequence. I just want to make sure I look at the whole - is this an issue of attention? use of time? lack of discipline? or lack of understanding? being overwhelmed? etc...
As I said, my students and I meet together at the end of each week and we honestly assess the week - lesson plans, reading selections, assignments, expectations, challenges. This isn't a gripe session. I ask questions and seek input so that their day is as smooth as possible and I bring to bear every tool that is reasonable to help make this so. They understand that their education is a discipline...so not all of it will be thrilling for them. Some of it will just be...a discipline. This weekly meeting together time helps us to communicate and work together to brainstorm...
** Are expectations realistic?
** Are reading assignments appropriate?
** Are there areas that seem to bottleneck during the day?
** Do the time allotted expectations need to be adjusted?
** Are there other distractions that need to be brainstormed?
** Are there subjects/areas that are consistently a struggle? consistently not finishing in the time allowed?
** Can I logistically correct some of the challenges?
** Is this an area of discipline?
** Am I providing enough input?
** Am I available during the times of day that my older students need me most?
It isn't super formal...I just listed questions I might throw out there so you could sort of see my line of thinking. In talking with my students, I address areas they need to work on - making better use of their time, attention to studies, etc., whatever areas they might need to work on. I take the feedback they give me and make changes as necessary to their lesson plans for the next week. I also try to give them specific tools to work with - so, for example, if I have a child that is easily distracted, we discuss tools that can help that child remain focused like working in a quiet room, being creative in our use of quiet spaces (like the bathroom), etc. For my part, I might move subjects that are more challenging for that student to a quieter time of the day. The purpose of this weekly meeting time is so that my student and I are communicating together individually and regularly about their work, the tools available to them, areas they need to work on...and it helps me identify areas I need to work on. This meeting time keeps us on the same page, and it has helped me see problems before they become huge crises.
Bringing all of this back to the question of ENOUGH...I want my children to work purposefully each day and ensure that their lesson plans reflect that goal. I expect attention from them during their work time. My older children are almost entirely self-educated - they know the responsibility for their education lies squarely on their shoulders. I am there alongside them for support and assistance. I do not want to overwork them because of an issue of frustration, or lack of understanding, or because they don't have appropriate tools to complete a task. I try to keep work proportional - I don't expect 2 hours and 45 minutes worth of time spent slogging through math...and only 45 minutes of history reading.
Kristie 4 wrote:
| 2.How do you schedule in the 'discussion' times with the teens, math teaching of multiple ages, read alouds with the littles and everything in between |
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DISCUSSION WITH TEEN - for us it always seems to happen in the evening or during quieter times when littles are playing happily or sleeping. I try to be attentive and observant during the day, and if there's something I want to bring up later, I do. My teen prefers it when those kind of discussions can take place when it's quieter - so dinner prep or after the littles go to bed seems to work best for us. Now...if you're talking narrations...I ask for daily narrations from my big kids during the littles afternoon quiet time (which is VERY STRICTLY ENFORCED). We are often finishing up narrations during dinner prep, too. Many of my high schoolers narrations morph into discussions, so I save what I know will be the meatier narrations for later in the evening because there is less opportunity for interruption.
READ ALOUDS WITH LITTLES - this one is working out well for me this year. Before lunch my older students work completely independently. That leaves me free to work with my 1st grader and my toddler. I do have a little time to assist older students if needed, but mostly I'm working with my youngers in the morning and this is when we do some of our read alouds. I also read aloud to them immediately following lunch. After lunch is quiet time, and that's when I shift gears and interact much more with my older two.
EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN - I'll be candid, I don't do a lot extra or in between. I do swish laundry in between lessons...I try to maintain a reasonable and workable menu so that dinners don't sneak up on me. I delegate specific chores to my children and they assist me in keeping the house running. I am a careful steward of time out of the home.
I was struck by something CM says in one of her volumes and that is that work during the day is proportional - so I try to keep our days and the time we spend on various undertakings proportional with time for lessons, time outdoors, time for reading independently, time to communicate together, family time, time for individual children to pursue passions, etc.
I don't think there's a specific formula for this, Kristie, but I hope there are some ideas here for you to consider.
How much is enough? Are you offering a variety of whole, living ideas every day? Are your children spending a proportional amount of time working on their lessons as well as pursuing other interests? Have you staggered your generous curriculum across the week...rather than every day? Do the children have the tools needed to be able to offer full attention during times of work? Can you offer a bit more structure in terms of time allotted for work so that there is a definite beginning and end of work...this is a help in offering attention...you're not telling the child they must be attentive for "as long as it takes...we can sit here all day if you like!!!!". You're saying, "please give this your full attention for 30 minutes and you're done!"
Let us know if we can narrow this a bit more to brainstorm further with you! I really enjoy digging into questions like this because they help me brainstorm, too! 
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Jen Mackintosh
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Kristie 4
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| Posted: Oct 04 2010 at 8:52am | IP Logged
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Thank you ladies both so much- for taking time out to help me!!
I have lots to think on today.
Jen, I printed your post off for my husband to look at. He really wants to help more this year but doesn't know where to start at times- this will give him a good base to work from.
Off to work some of this out!!
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Kristie in Canada
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Erin
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| Posted: Oct 04 2010 at 6:04pm | IP Logged
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Kristie
 I have been thinking about your question all weekend, and have been feeling for you as I know you have been finding things difficult for a while
Oh I have children in K, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and 11th grade.
Kristie 4 wrote:
What I am asking for is how do you plan out
1. what is 'enough'- what happens when your child is doing what you have given them but it has taken the whole day and they are not done? How do you know what is doable- after all, they need time to be and think and explore! |
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After many different approaches our current approach has been working for the last year successfully. I work out what I believe to be doable on a daily basis, then I multiple by 5 or less and present to the children as a weekly expectation, actually the sheet they receive shows a term overview. This way we all have the big picture, also it allows the children the flexibility to suit their learning styles, some prefer to poke along and do a bit of each subject daily, some prefer to do a whole terms worth of history in a week or two before turning to the next subject. (Have shared here click on the bottom tabs, my 11th grader is CT3, 9th grader is DT3,
Sometimes I realise I have assigned too much when my dd17, who is very diligent is taking all day to get her work done. She works hard, so when she can't get it done I know the problem lies with me. When my ds' have 'worked' all day and still not got the work done I never assume the fault lies with my planning, I know it lies with them wasting time.
I guess I only really know this over time, it is not something I knew when my dd was in 7th grade. To be honest I only really feel I have 'got this' in the last couple of years. And believe me there is still room for improvement.
Kristie 4 wrote:
| 2.How do you schedule in the 'discussion' times with the teens, math teaching of multiple ages, read alouds with the littles and everything in between (how's that for a simple question- I am sure I have read umpteen books, blogs, and posts on this forum about all this but I feel like I just can't wrap my head around it at all right now!) |
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My teens tend to do alot of their work independently now (I do miss when they were all younger, took me a long time to adjust and accept) I tend to work with my pre-schoolers and primary aged children before morning tea. Then I may 'grab' a teenager in the MT break, and have a quick 'how are you going' or when they come to me for their dictation I'll do a quick check. My teens use an instructional computer disc for maths, which also marks etc so I really just touch base there now.
After MT I'm still working with my primary ones, as they drift off just before lunch, I then try to touch base with my teens again. To be honest I need to spend more time with them, new term coming up so feeling hopeful.
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Erin
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Kristie 4
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| Posted: Oct 04 2010 at 6:48pm | IP Logged
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THank you Erin. Good to see how you move with the different rythms- sometimes I know I have to look more to how we 'move' as a family and not from an external planning mindset!
Had a great day today though- one child sick, hands on child cooking like crazy and a good science lab and lots of sun...wasn't everything but we are all feeling peaceful!!
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Kristie in Canada
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A Walk in the Woods
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Angel
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| Posted: Oct 06 2010 at 9:33am | IP Logged
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Kristie, I have been thinking about your question and its replies for a while (lots of time think up with a baby in the middle of the night), but have been stymied in my attempts to reply. Let's see if I can steal a few minutes this morning, but I can't promise total coherency! 
When I first saw your post I immediately thought of Drew Campbell's book The Latin-Centered Curriculum and "multum non multa" -- not many but much. If you haven't looked at the book, I believe it would be helpful, especially since you said you liked Latin. The schedules in the book are pretty sane: there are daily activities (Latin, math, for example) and then rotating blocks for literature, history, etc. The list of books is much whittled down from AO or HOE, but read slowly and in depth.
I started reading vol. 6 in Charlotte Mason's education series the other day, though -- rereading it, since it's been so long -- and I began to realize that she really criticizes the classical position -- of using subjects (like Latin or chemistry or whatever) to learn how to learn instead of reading the subjects as content, for the knowledge in and of itself. I have to confess that I wondered why (not to mention how) she had ALL THOSE subjects in her curriculum, but I guess I had forgotten this little bit. Anyway, the passages stood out for me now, since I was thinking about your post.
So I wonder if part of the process of deciding "how much is enough" isn't clarifying our own position on learning... going back to the beginning and asking, "*Is* it important to include *all *these subjects? Do I think the subjects themselves are all important or do I think that it doesn't matter so much if my child doesn't get "xyz" as long as they have learned how to learn a language, how to do research, how to write a paper... etc.?" Different people will have different answers to those questions. I think it's probably important to know what we think as families (husband and wife) and then find practical methods to make those basic ideas somewhat real. (Nothing will be perfect, of course, but maybe we will figure out a good compromise.)
In our case, we tend to be eclectic pragmatists. We have set work periods when the kids are required to be working, not playing, but at the end, they're done. 30-45 minutes of math is enough, even for my algebra I student. (My kids are 8th/9th, 6th/7th, 2nd, Kish and Kish, btw... I'm teaching 3 kids to read this year ) Now if he *liked* math and wanted to work longer, I would certainly not get in his way! In our family, we tend to sacrifice some well-roundedness to the pursuit of individual interests. So I don't worry so much that the kids aren't doing EVERY section in the AO/HOE lists (my oldest does not like CM style nature study and I can't see making him learn folk music, for instance, and we don't do Plutarch every year). I have also been spreading many of the Year 7 readings over 2 years -- cutting some out, substituting others, etc.
I also leave my older kids' schedule up to them. My dd has discovered that she likes to do math as soon as she gets up, for example, so she gets up early, does her math in her room where it's quiet while I get the little boys breakfast, then spends some time drawing or doing handcrafts until I ask her to watch boys so I can take a shower. My eldest is an almost 14 yo boy. He stumbles down the stairs, grunts at me when he gets his breakfast, then goes back upstairs to read for a while until I call them for prayers. I have whittled down what we do together to faith. I am hoping to add some Shakespeare reading in the evenings. (My dh reads to the little ones then and has my 7 yo read to him before bed.)
Something else my dh does... he's taken over business/econ with my oldest. He chose the resources, makes the assignments, and has the discussions. I stay out of it.
Ok, so now I think I've written down some of my thoughts and will have to think about something else for the next few days.
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Angela
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Kristie 4
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Thanks Angela.
Yes, I have both copies of LCC curriculum on my shelf- prefer the first streamlined one. But, my dd especially missed all the Nature Study, poetry mem. etc. when we were more streamlined. Today she 'dreamed' of the things she wants to learn etc.- I looked at it and it was extremely well rounded and hit the areas of reading/spelling/writing that are my focus for her for the year. My son, in 10th, is good with almost anything as long as it requires a ton of reading and a minimum of geometry!! Today, we spent the morning on a catechism book, specifically discussing evolution for most of the morning- so I struck off many of what the olders and I would do together and sent them outside with their math.... the youngers have been out the whole day! I will round them up for violin etc. later...
I think for me it is the need for balance, a schedule, but one that can be struck off when the need strikes. I also realize how much I enjoy in depthly reading through things with my older two (13 and 15) and discussing them, but it takes time and they let me know that they both love it too, but not if it is every day all morning as they are stressed to finish their other work!!!
AHhhhh, it is all a work in progress- but it is the most beautiful Manitoba week so spirits are high and I must get outside again!
Thanks heaps!!
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Kristie in Canada
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Elena
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One thing that worked for us is to alternate science and history as in doing a semester of science and then a semester of history - instead of trying to do both subjects at once! That took a lot of the pressure off!
Also I am finding that having my high school student doing a lot of disciplined self-study has made a big difference for the family and also making him more responsible and accountable for his work.
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Elena
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: How Do You Know Enough is Enough?
