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Cay Gibson
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Julie brought this topic up in another thread and I thought it worth looking at separately.
One thing I like about Dr. Phil is he makes people look at themselves and take responsibility for their actions instead of blaming other people...especially the parents.
I have been confronted by this devious mindset within my home. When something goes wrong or whatever, I have noticed that all eyes get targeted on me .
I don't know why that is, but it's as though I'm suppose to make sure nothing goes wrong and, if it does,I'm suppose to fix it.
So I have tried taking a different approach in this past year. I placed the bulk of their learning on their shoulders. They were responsible for their education.
I also had to develop a habit of tapping them lightly on the shoulder and telling them that the decision that was made was their decision, not mine.
My oldest ds (18 yrs) got a traffic ticket last week. He's 18 now and has a job. He made the mistake. He pays the ticket. He knew this. We didn't have to say anything. Of course, as parents, we were aggravated  and had to say something.
I know...I know...<sigh>, but I couldn't help myself.
The discussion didn't last long however. What amazed me was his reaction to us. He didn't roll his eyes or get angry. He stood in the kitchen, leaning on the counter, and stopped us both in our tracks with a calm, "It's my problem. I got the ticket. I'll take care of it."
Case closed. Neither Mark or I prssed him any further. Honestly, in my mind I thought, "Wow! He's turned into a man." 
What are your thoughts on this situation in our current society where the younger generation blames their parents for their problems?
How do we keep our children focused on their decisions and their reactions in life?
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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amyable
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Bumping this up because I'm interested in what others would have to say (I have so little to say myself  )
My big question is, when did this happen? Did people 2 generations ago blame their parents for everything? What has changed since then? I seem to remember famous psychologists of a few generations ago blaming mothers/mothering styles for certain problems in their young - did it start there? I'm very naive about all this...
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Mary G
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It seems the victimology phase started in the late 70s early 80s -- it was never the person's fault, but rather their parents', their surroundings or their schooling. I have a few siblings who bought into this hook-line-and-sinker!
It always seemed strange to me that when something bad happens -- it's someone elses fault; when something works, than it's because I'm so great! What bunkum!
This is what is really irritating my mother about my sister's accident. Many of the people close to my sister are not Catholic; they are crediting Anne's quick recovery with great doctors, Anne's overall perseverance, etc. They blamed God when Anne got hit -- why can't they give God some credit for Anne's survival and being home less than 2 months after the accident!
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Martha
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It's very difficult, I think, to raise your children responsibly in our society. On another digest board, I think quiverfull?, they were talking about whether you shuold let your dc work outside the home to gain experiences and skills before graduation. On the 1 hand, they may learn a skill and some financial responsiblity and be able to help the family.
But a mother wrote in with my very biggest concern. Her ds went to work with a very christian neighbor when the boy was 12 because he wanted to learn about carpentry - this man's profession. Well, the parents had taught this boy about working hard, planning for his future, taking care of his family, etc...
Yet, they were almost completely undermined by this christian man and many other christian contacts over the years had influenced her son negatively. These parent's thought they were being carefull too. Only people they knew from church, family,. etc...Everywhere he went he heard the same song and dance, "Have fun while you're young! Take risks while you're young! You shouldn't have so much responsiblity yet, wait until you're older to worry about work and family and money!"
The problem with this attitude is it does 2 things:
- It fails to mention such an attitude often results in many problems that must be dealt with for life and earlier than if the child had listened to the parents.
- It paints a horribly negative image that a responsible, mature adult life is to be dreaded and put off for as long as possible.
That woman said eventually their son moved away from home to live with more like-minded friends. He is now nearly 18 and suffering the consequences of such foolish philosophy.
I worry about this with my dc. I've already heard all those type of comments towards my children and the oldest is just going to be 11 next month! I know what we do as parents matters, but I also know 100 people saying 1 thing makes it mighty hard for young people to hear 2 people saying a different thing, kwim?? As it is, my kids know other kids don't have 7 younger siblings, chores, do get allowances, have lots of extracurriculiar activities, come and go as they please, and so much else. How do you say, "yeah they do, but...."? with young children to dispell the images of supposed freedon and carefree living they see everywhere around them without being uncharitable to those others??? I'm more inclined to blunt and brutal honesty.... 
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humanaevitae
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Another issue that kind of goes along with getting the kids to take responsibility for their actions is the notion that their choices/attitude/actions affect and influence others.
I remember receiving a speeding ticket when I was younger. Of course I had to pay for it but my parents also emphasized that my poor decision also affected others. Such as: their auto rates could increase; it was a poor example to other siblings; I could have caused an accident, etc....
Unfortunately as a mother I see our kids mimic my poor choices (angry words, sarcasm, laziness). They still made the ultimate choice and can not blame it on me but I still bear some responsibility in setting a poor example.
What do you think?
Nicole
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Martha
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Hmm, I don't know... isn't there some common sense tht says you should learn from the mistakes (poor examples) of others??
I come from a long line of poor examples. Little christian traits to be found on my side of the tree. But I think one of the reasons I'm so different from the rest of my family is I have seen the results of their choices. Bad/ruined marriages, drugs, depression, anger, joblessness, paganism, lack of family connection, etc... and I decided long ago that was NOT going to be my fate in life.
I have many of the failings you mentions Nicole, but my kids see the results too because I'm pretty vocal about my own shortcomings. Like this morning, I was too lazy/tired to do the dishes before bed last night, so I found myself grumbling to the kids that breakfast would have to wait because mommy didn't get the dishes done last night and has to do them now if anyone wants a spoon.  [Insert self inflicted guilt trip here.]
Now, the kids hopefully don't see me as a bad mother, but do see the importance of everyone doing their chores?!
I don't know... I wonder the same thing, but also just don't understand why no one these days seems to see any further to the effects of actions and chose differently for themselves?? Is it self-delusion??
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juliecinci
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My two cents.
I come from southern California so take all with big grains of therapeutic salt. 
Parents do automatically shape their kids' experience of life - for good or ill and all in between. The power of parental decisions lingers for most of our lives.
I took an informal survey one time to find out how many of my friends, a) liked their mothers now that they were adults and b) were raising their kids the way they had been raised. The results among my sampling of friends both online and in person (probably about 25 women) were devastating.
I only found one friend who genuinely liked her mother and I didn't find anyone who felt she was raising her kids in the spirit of how she had been raised. Isn't that incredible?
How many of us look to our parents for role models now that we are parents? It appears to me, at least in the Christian homeschooling world, that we see ourselves as doing something very different and we have our reasons for not doing what our parents did. Will our kids feel the same way?
What prompted this "survey" was that I began to notice a trend. My girlfriends often complained about their mothers (not in cruel ways, but in annoyed or "that's so mom" ways). I started wondering if my kids were going to see me that way! I hoped not.
But really, maybe there is something to the way we have come to view family in America - that parents have the primary control over how kids turn out. If we don't like something about ourselves, we can look at our parents and believe that we can make things different for our kids. And perhaps we can in many ways do so, but I am now wondering how much of our culture actually causes us to individuate from family by doing things differently than our parents...
So my question has been with my kids and with my past: how much am I who I am because of my temperament, choices in the face of pain, and experiences that I had (experiences that may have been the result of being raised in California with X income and so on, but still, my experiences not expressly controlled by my parents)?
What I hope I am doing with our kids (there it is - I think I can do something! LOL) is to remind them that the hand they've been dealt is just a hand. They get to make choices that they will live with. I am not out to make them pick my way or even what I perceive as God's way. I have decided not to take it as an invalidation if my daughter, for instance, decides to work fulltime and put her kids in daycare. That will be her decision to make, just like it was mine to stay home.
I may guide, nurture and pray, but ultimately, their decisions are based on who they are, and not on how I've controlled them or limited them or promoted them.
And in my heart of hearts, what I really hope is the result of all these years in the same house is that they will look forward to my phone calls and visits when I am old and they are raising a family.
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juliecinci
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Cay, one other thing that you mentioned is how not to assume that it's "your fault" if something turns out wrong.
I have a funny anecdote to share. My daughter was never very good at math. We struggled together through Miquon and a variety of programs and none of them clicked. I assumed it was genetic (I am not good at math either).
As she approached high school, I kept assuming she'd need remedial levels and lots of space to get her maths done. I finally hired a tutor for her. After two months of algebra, the tutor stopped me at my car and said, "Your daughter needs to be a math major." What?!?
Apparently she has a real knack for higher math and she's doing great now! She's about to finish algebra II and has an A. I was blown away. But my first thought wasn't "She's so smart" it was "I suck as a math teacher."
I had to forgive myself for being bad at math with her. I assumed it was me. And perhaps it was - in a mathy home she would have excelled sooner, perhaps. But then I had to remember that she has two English-y people as parents and she is strong in writing and reading. Well then.
So the point is that homeschooling adds a whole level of responsibility for kids that other families don't experience. If they have kids struggling in school, it's ADD or teachers, or rebelliousness. If they struggle at home, it's mom and homeschooling.
To get out of that loop, I just have to keep talking with other homeschoolers to be reminded that all kids struggle with something and all mothers feel guilty about it.
Julie
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Willa
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juliecinci wrote:
I took an informal survey one time to find out how many of my friends, a) liked their mothers now that they were adults and b) were raising their kids the way they had been raised. The results among my sampling of friends both online and in person (probably about 25 women) were devastating.
I only found one friend who genuinely liked her mother and I didn't find anyone who felt she was raising her kids in the spirit of how she had been raised. Isn't that incredible? |
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I have an informal survey going too, and the results are rather the same.
I guess I fit in the odd percentage. I like both my parents and admire them very much. I like and admire my in-laws too! The details of how I raise my kids differ quite a bit from how they did it but I feel the principles and "spirit" are pretty much the same. My husband and I am not them and I've had to work to try to emulate them without merely mimicking them (especially my mom).
I hope the following doesn't come off controversial. I wonder how much divorce plays into the picture. Many of the people I know come from divorced families. Children seem to experience that on a very deep level, and respond by putting up barriers against their parents' power to hurt them.
The other thing I wonder about is "peer pressure". Sometimes people seem to me to talk about their parents dismissively "that's so Mom," partly because they grew up doing that as teenagers and it just stuck. They think that's how people talk. It is definitely not "cool" to be family-oriented, nowadays.
The final thing I wonder about with regard to "blaming the parents" is whether it's the other side of parents trying to act TOO powerful. Hard to explain. A long time ago I read a book about the parenting style of the "baby boomers" parents. I wish I could remember the details betters... This was the first generation that was having smaller, more affluent families than the preceding ones. They wanted their kids to have it easier than they did. They gave their kids all kinds of toys and luxuries. They tried to create a sort of safety zone of material prosperity, without the spiritual underpinnings.
Obviously, this is quite over-simplified, yet I wonder if kids experience a trade-off of family intimacy and meaningfulness for material wealth and ease as a betrayal.
Anyway, those are some of the things I ponder about this subject of "parent-blaming" and so three things I try to be careful about are:
1. Working on my relationship with my husband (for the sake of my kids as well as our own sake)
2. Not letting peer relationships take predominance over parental relationships. I suppose it's also unhealthy to go to the other extreme and become too dependent on their parents. This seems to be a difficult area to balance because in this generation we've been affected by our own peer experiences.
3. Trying to live on the edge a bit. A hard thing to explain. I want my kids to see that our lives are challenging, that we face problems but still think "life is beautiful" and worthwhile. I don't want my kids to think that life entitles us to an easy ride. So when I say "live on the edge" I don't mean dysfunctional or the wild life at all; I mean that we try to welcome the unexpected, the little bumps in the road, with a positive and religious attitude.... that adversity has value and significance.
That way hopefully the kids won't come to us and say, "Mom and dad, my life is hard. You didn't prepare me for this!"
I'm sure there are more I haven't mentioned, and I won't claim to be a success in balancing out any of these, but I thought I'd write them out.
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Willa
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tovlo4801
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juliecinci wrote:
As she approached high school, I kept assuming she'd need remedial levels and lots of space to get her maths done. I finally hired a tutor for her. After two months of algebra, the tutor stopped me at my car and said, "Your daughter needs to be a math major." What?!?
Apparently she has a real knack for higher math and she's doing great now! She's about to finish algebra II and has an A. I was blown away. But my first thought wasn't "She's so smart" it was "I suck as a math teacher."
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This is off topic, but I just had to add another thought to help in not feeling bad about yourself. She might have struck that math streak without the tutor too. I was HORRIBLE at math all through school. I actually got a D in the class where they teach you to balance your checkbook. For some reason I took a dare from my friend junior year and signed up to take advanced math. I ended up getting an A. Easily. I never really understood it.
Now that I've got a son who's really, truly terrible at math, I've done some looking on the internet into math disabilities. I discovered that there is something where kids can be horrible at the basic math fact type things, but really excel at higher math. I keep hoping my son will be one of those and he'll always have access to a calculator.
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ladybugs
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WJFR wrote:
I hope the following doesn't come off controversial. I wonder how much divorce plays into the picture. Many of the people I know come from divorced families.
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Good morning, Willa...
I don't think this is controversial at all. Sadly, I believe it holds alot of truth.  In my own family, I have seen this. My parents divorced and I am the only one of three of us who are married. And I believe that that can only be attributed to grace.
I think it is important to see the good and try to change the negative cycles, generationally and be careful to achieve balance...not have the pendulum swing completely to the other side...kwim?
I also think we have to watch the tendencies in ourselves that provoke our children. Parents do have a responsibility not to provoke their children. Of course, this doesn't mean that our authority is doormatted it just means we have to use caution as to how we exact that authority...
I'm glad that the tendency toward people and things is changing...I'm optimistic, aren't I? But I see so many beautiful families choosing to live their Catholic faith that I have hope for the future. Even if we feel lonely IRL, there really are alot of us...and we're taking over the world!!!! (Where's the mad scientist emoticon?)
Well, breakfast is almost ready....I made Mary Chris' famous french toastthis morning. This is the third time we've had it since she posted it. It is yummy!
Hope everyone has a great day!
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Maria P
My etsy store - all proceeds go to help my fencing daughters!
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tovlo4801
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WJFR wrote:
| I hope the following doesn't come off controversial. I wonder how much divorce plays into the picture. |
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I wondered that too. My picture is a little different. It's my dad (who I love a great deal) that I tend to not want to be like. There are many things I want to emulate, but primarily I want to avoid his need to be affirmed in the wider world by the performance of his children. When my parents seperated I lived with my dad. I wonder if that makes the difference. I have things about my mom that bug me too, but not so much about her parenting. My relationship with her was different because we didn't live together though. Just an interesting thing to think about.
The thing about both of my parents that I really want to take away was how much they loved and respected us. My brother firmly believes that the reason we turned out as decent as we did despite the difficulties we lived through is because of the way my mom loved us when we were little. Her love was a kind, respectful love that sacrificed herself for her children. My dad's love (despite the difficulties mentioned above) was also a self sacrificing love. For my dad it happened more in terms of material things. But we knew that he didn't give us material things to buy our love or to keep us at bay. He spent time with us, talked with us and cared about us. We knew that when he sacrificed to give us material things, he was doing it out of a deep love for us and because he wanted to sacrifice himself to provide something to us.
I don't know if that makes sense, but I guess I might be in the odd group too because generally I respect the way my parents raised me in spite of the divorce and some abuse we were subjected to by a step parent. I think what made an impact boils down to self-sacrificing. And it's important to note that their self-sacrifice was not even close to perfect. My dad was selfish and put his children in a terrible situation with his wife because of that selfishness. They were both selfish in their decision to divorce to achieve what they believed would give them happiness. Despite that imperfection, there was something about the self sacrifice that they did give us that was truly selfless and felt by us. Don't know. Just some random thoughts.
WJFR wrote:
| I don't want my kids to think that life entitles us to an easy ride. So when I say "live on the edge" I don't mean dysfunctional or the wild life at all; I mean that we try to welcome the unexpected, the little bumps in the road, with a positive and religious attitude.... that adversity has value and significance. |
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This is beautiful and so true. And we don't have to go out looking for thos bumps. They seem to manage to come to everyone in every situation. Julie has mentioned elsewhere the difficulties that come with being wealthy. Clearly there are difficulties in being poor. Each state in life seems to have it's own built in difficulties and each particular life path has it's own extra unique bumps in the road. We just have to sit back and wait for them to hit. And it's so true that each and every one has some value or growth that can come from it. No matter how you handle the bumps you change.
Actually if our kids are prone to it, they'll probably be able to come to us later and say we didn't prepare them for what comes because whatever they experience as adults will undoubtedly be different than whatever bumps they hit when they were younger. It's just good to teach them how to handle the bumps in general (I love your description of welcoming bumps with a positive and religious attitude) rather than only how to handle specific types of bumps, I suppose.
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Willa
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tovlo4801 wrote:
| The thing about both of my parents that I really want to take away was how much they loved and respected us. My brother firmly believes that the reason we turned out as decent as we did despite the difficulties we lived through is because of the way my mom loved us when we were little. Her love was a kind, respectful love that sacrificed herself for her children. My dad's love (despite the difficulties mentioned above) was also a self sacrificing love. |
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I wish I could edit my last post because it went so much off the original question and just seems so insensitive to me now.... anyway, thanks Richelle and Maria, for responding in such a thoughtful way and steering it away from over-simplifying.
Most of the people I know who come from less than ideal childhood situations DON'T play the blame game --- if they were hurt, they move past it and if there were good things, they remember those and build on them. As you, Richelle, and Maria, show.
I guess there's a CHOICE involved and also if parents really love their children, their children seem to be able to see that and respond to it. But I think I ought to stop generalizing so much....
In some ways I had an unhappy childhood but it was sort of outside my parents' control, or so I perceived it. We moved yearly and it was emotionally difficult for the type of kid I was. But I don't know what else my parents could have done, and I knew they were committed to me. They felt they made mistakes, and admitted that to me later. That helped me realize they didn't owe me PERFECT parenting, somehow....
My 3yo blames me for EVERYTHING because he thinks I can do everything . As they get older I try to make them realize that this is an illusion
Maria talked about the many beautiful Catholic families setting new patterns and (mwahaaahhaa) changing the world and I see/hope/envision/pray for that too. It gives me hope when we hit the homeschooling or family bumpy zones. We don't HAVE to be perfectly successful to be faithful, to paraphrase Mother Teresa. That's reassuring to me. Thanks for being patient about my ramblings!
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Willa
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Elizabeth
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Dr. Laura has a new book that is all about what Willa writes above Bad Childhood, Good Life
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Marybeth
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I think the blame game comes from a gross since of entitlement to a happy, low stress, well paid life. Didn't the Blessed Mother say to St. Bernadette...I can't promise you happiness in this life but in the next?
In my sister's town a speaker is coming to educate parents on how to help their college graduated young man/woman find a job. Isn't that the graduate's responsibility? I feel sorry for these young people who grew up in the million dollar homes in this town..they have some hard hard lessons to learn. It won't be easy!
Marybeth
PS My sister's youngest son is the only person in his second grade class (17 children) who has to make his bed and clean up after himself.
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guitarnan
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This thread points out so many good things...and how hard it is for homeschoolers like us to really try to change the world, as Willa says.
I was blessed with faithful Catholic parents, and I have a great relationship with them and with my m-i-l now. Of course, I didn't do everything my parents advised me too, and now I sure wish I had...but that's growing up and free will for you. At least I received good guidance. I watched my cousins (growing up in a secular home, in which the parents eventually divorced, in a wealthy area with bad influences and no supervision) and even as a teen I could see that they were headed in some very wrong directions. Now we're all in our 40's and I still have trouble figuring out why they do certain things and why they blame it *all* on their parents, one of whom is deceased.
Having said that, I have noticed in my own home that one of the things that sets my parenting style apart from my parents' methods is the fact that my children are home all the time. I can't hide those little bumps of life from them. I can smooth them out a bit, but when I get the phone call with bad news, the kids are right there and they see my first reaction, not the one I've planned for when they get off the school bus. So, I do try to let them see, when appropriate, how I work to handle these difficulties. They see my tears and see me run to my little kitchen shrine to ask Mary for help. They hear me discuss family illnesses with my husband and debate how we can help from far across the continent. I think that's a good thing; in my parents' generation, some of these things were hidden from children, even teens. (My grandfather had a chronic illness all his adult life and no one now alive in my family knows what it was, not even his sons.)
I do think that children who face problems of poverty, parents who struggle with addiction, relationship issues, or extreme pressures of any sort do have a much harder road to travel as teens and adults. However, there's a lot of help out there, and it's OK to seek that help. (A blessing Americans enjoy...there's help and no stigma attached to seeking it...it's not that way everywhere...) I'm no expert, but it seems to me that with good spiritual guidance and counseling, and with practice building up self-confidence, it is definitely possible for someone to turn most of those things around as an adult and lead a good life.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Blaming the Parents
