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tovlo4801
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| Posted: Dec 28 2005 at 3:02pm | IP Logged
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I've got a good unschooling "out of the box" question that's probably going to make you all think I've gone off the deep end and started reliving the 60's (actually I can't relive them since I wasn't alive, but you know what I mean  ).
What should the goal of our interaction with our children at this stage of their life be? I purposely did not say what is the goal of educating our children, because I'm starting to question whether it should be assumed that formally educating our children is part of the equation. I'm starting to wonder if education as we tend to think of it is an artificial construction and that learning (which is what I suspect we truly want) is something that will naturally happen.
Willa said something in a different thread that bumped up against what I'm contemplating right now.
Willa wrote:
The idea for the advocates of "useful education", that CM and Newman fought against, is that it is better to train/educate children efficiently so they can take their place in a working society. Some of them thought you could do it almost with a factory model -- pour in this, shape that, and you'll get a good little educated citizen. There's nothing wrong with avocational "trade" education but essentially, education isn't about getting into the right college or getting a well-paying job. At best, those things are means to an end, not an end in themselves, and over-emphasizing them as an end in themselves can actually work against the greater good.
Cardinal Newman said that liberal education -- education directed to the person as human being, as child of God -- will always help a person do their work better, but that's not its primary goal. Charlotte Mason believed the same thing. |
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I've been considering the utilitarianism of education as we conceive of it. We don't generally engage in solely vocational education, but we always seem to have some vague goal that we think our children need to reach in order for their education to have been successful. Should we? I'm starting to wonder.
Is being educated as simple as getting a child across some artificial finish line? Is my child actually uneducated if they don't meet whatever artificial standard of "educated" is currently accepted?
I was thinking about living for the moment the other day. It occurred to me that all the plans for the future are somewhat unwise because we can't possibly know what the future holds. I then thought about something I've heard Cindy say. Paraphrased it goes something like, "Don't sacrifice your relationship with your children on the altar of curriculum." To me this means even more than just a school at home packaged sort of curriculum. It encompasses all sorts of learning that are dictated by me to my children for the sake of that future goal I can't possibly know is actually the right goal. As unpleasant as it might be to contemplate, our child could die before reaching college. What would our goal for them have been if we'd known that? The apocalypse could happen tomorrow. What would our goal for our children have been if we'd known that? It seems even crazier to make that sacrifice to curriculum when you consider how uncertain the future promised by following a certain path is.
Only God really knows what the correct path for my child is. I want to learn to hear the whisperings of the Holy Spirit in my life and I want my children to learn to do the same. I honestly believe that would be the only way to truly be following the correct path. I just think there is so much static that gets in the way. It seems safer to follow a well-tread path that leads to a promised destination in an uncertain future than to risk following the static away from the path where we actually should be. Even if the consensus plan is the wrong path for a particular individual, at least you have company at the destination, I guess. :) Yet it still might very well be the wrong destination. And what have you sacrificed to get there?
So I guess back to the original question, given my circular wanderings, what should the goal of education be? Or should there even be a goal? Or should the goal just be to follow those whisperings wherever they may lead even if it is not to college and where the rest of the crowd is going?
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tovlo4801
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OK. I just re-read this and I really do sound "out there". Please don't think I'm cuckoo. I actually really want my kids to go to college and be productive members of society. I'm just starting to wonder if I should want it so much.
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Cindy
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tovlo4801 wrote:
| what should the goal of education be? Or should there even be a goal? Or should the goal just be to follow those whisperings wherever they may lead even if it is not to college and where the rest of the crowd is going? |
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Richelle-
I want to think about your post more and comment later- but in the meantime, I had this thought.
Most often when we decide to homeschool we are breaking away from the pack. Now if our children 'fail' it is our fault and we cannot blame the schools.
If we take the alternate path you described above, breaking away from mainstream homeschoolers, are we again facing that same potential critcism? We did not follow this plan, this curriclum or do what the rest of the crowd did, so if we fail it is all our fault?
This sounds like the static you mentioned. Are we afraid to step out? We have lots of voices in the traditional world guiding us, but when we rely on the Holy Spirit, it gets scary. And then we also have to explain ourselves.
Just thoughts-- not to take away from the main points you were making, just seeing some of the static perhaps come to light for me?
And btw, I don't think you sounded cuckoo!  I think you are pondering what we do and why we do it. To me this is much the same as any spiritul journey we find ourselves on. What is of the world and what does God really want for us and our children.
I see nothing that conflicts with our children being useful members of society, going to college and/or following God.
Some of our greatest saints were scholars, others were not..
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Cindy in Texas
It Is About The Journey
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juliecinci
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Such a great question!
Funny you should mention it. I was on the phone with my best friend from college last night. She has seven kids; I have five. We've been homeschooling the same length of time. She said to me, "It's funny how I had all these goals for what our home education would produce - like each of our kids would play two instruments. And that just hasn't happened. But what has happened is that we have good relationships."
I had just said to her that what I love most today about the results of homeschooling is how close our family is to each other. Ultimately, the gift we've given our kids is how to get along with each other, how to create a home where family is cherished, supported and the source of well-being.
The educational opportunities that come from having a happy family are limitless. When people like being together, good things occur almost all the time.
Over Christmas break, by being together all the time, we've: played card games, words games, have written a Christmas letter, have learned how to operate new technology, have made a home movie, have gone to several movies, have eaten out, have eaten in and made the food together, have read books, have decorated the home, have had guests over and more.
The kids love to hang out and do things together. And as they do, they grow and learn.
I have one example I wanted to share because it was so precious to me.
My 18 year old bought books for each person in the family this year for Christmas. We usually have the kids pick one child out of a hat to give to. But on his own, since he has money now, he decided to give to everyone. What blew me away was how thoughtful each book gift was. For each one, he had to consider what they loved, their reading level, what kind of books they had collected in the past and so on.
Then on Christmas day, I saw him sit with my nine year old daughter who is still struggling to read while he supported her all the way through the book he bought for her. Beautiful! So different than slugging through another day of phonics. And that really is how she's learning to read - in the laps of every reader, one interesting story at a time, with support from many more than just me.
I loved that.
Two nights ago, I stayed up late to watch a movie with my daughter. The next day while we worked on driving (she's about to get her license) she spent the entire ride going over the writing of the script, the symbolism, the metaphors, the acting skills etc.
That got us talking about effective screenplays versus bad ones.
In the car the other day, I got into a long discussion about science based on an NPR show that was playing with one of my other kids.
What I've noticed is that we are together so much and our lives contribute to each other.
So what is my goal now? (Since I really did have to let go of the "college is a given and goal" mentality).
It's to foster loving relationships in our home so that learning is possible. As long as we have a happy home, learning happens naturally. I have energy to stimulate their interests and to share mine. They have energy to receive from me and to tackle new ideas.
When a home is stressful or in pain (as mine was in high school when my parents divorced), learning doesn't happen so easily.
So good relationships turn out to be the ultimate benefit of home education for us.
Not bad, either.
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Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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Willa
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Richelle,
I think I've already flooded the unschooling forum with posts, but you asked about goals and I've always liked the one stated in "Implementing Ignatian Education in the Home" -- the goal is that the student grow to be "Catholic with the consent of all his faculties." Another way it is expressed is "prepared to be a Catholic influence on the sphere in which he (the adult) will move and live."
It really comes down to that for me. In one way it's very broad but in another way, it keeps me honest and focused because a lot of times when I get "off track" -- comparing my homeschool to that of others, getting into the checklist "get it done and cross it off for the day" mentality or also, sometimes, getting lax and careless and letting too much go -- then those statement of goals above recenter my efforts.
I could go on and on, but I should get off here. Sick kids!
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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amyable
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WJFR wrote:
| "Implementing Ignatian Education in the Home" -- |
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Willa, where can I find this? A few searches have brought up nothing...
(sorry to intrude on this very interesting subject!!)
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mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of 
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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tovlo4801
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amyable wrote:
WJFR wrote:
| "Implementing Ignatian Education in the Home" -- |
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Willa, where can I find this? A few searches have brought up nothing...
(sorry to intrude on this very interesting subject!!) |
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Not Willa, but you can get it from Kolbe Academy. I'm not sure if you can get it on their website or not. I got it from their table at our local homeschool conference. If you can't find it on the site, you could probably call and ask about it. It's only a couple dollar booklet (fairly quick read) and I agree with Willa that it's a great resource. I'm moving away from some of the more structured ideas, but the philosophy is wonderful I think. Good luck!
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tovlo4801
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Cindy wrote:
| Some of our greatest saints were scholars, others were not.. |
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I think this might be the crux of the question, for me anyway. I really believe in unschooling. The thing that often sets me off the path mentally is that nagging worry that my son will not be educated at the end of it. Then I think. What end? What's educated?
Everyone seems to look at college as the measure of successful homeschooling. I guess I want to take that off my plate. I want to be able to focus on the day and not worry about whether what we're doing will take us to some place I'm not even sure we should be. Outside of the homeschooling community not everyone ends up in college. So why should we expect every homeschooled child to end up there. Why should it be some sort of unspoken failure if they don't? Why should we expect every child that will eventually pursue higher education to do it at 18? What if my son doesn't go to college at 18? What if he goes into the Army? (more acceptable even than my next suggestion) What if he gets an apartment and a job at a factory that pays the bills? Would that be so bad? Maybe when he's thirty he'll want a promotion and need to go back to school. Wouldn't that get the job done just as well?
I don't think in my heart I'd be sad about that if he was a good person with a strong faith who was interested in life and God. Yet as my perspective sits right now it would make me uncomfortable because society would see it as a failure. I want to change my perspective.
Julie wrote:
| She said to me, "It's funny how I had all these goals for what our home education would produce - like each of our kids would play two instruments. And that just hasn't happened. But what has happened is that we have good relationships." ...As long as we have a happy home, learning happens naturally. |
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What a great example! I was thinking about Leonie's quote about everything mixing into parenting. I was thinking about how when my son was younger I would read parenting books and think all the time about how to relate to him better. I remember going to a conference by the author of "How to Talk so Your Children will Listen". She talked about if your child was whining for something to respect that desire in your child and rather than shut them down to join in. If they want water and there's not a water faucet nearby to join in and set up a fantasy for them. "Yeah! Wouldn't a great big fountain be wonderful right now?" I tried it and I was so amazed at how my son just stopped and looked at me. Suddenly we were on the same team. Yet when "school age" hit, my focus went off of parenting and really moved to education. Now we were adversaries. I had a goal and I had to get him to the finish line. I lost sight of just being a gentle, loving parent and relating with my children--respecting them. It became even more significant as I homeschooled. My parenting was almost all about educating. I want my parenting to be about parenting. Facilitating learning is certainly a part of that, but I wonder if I've missed how natural learning really is to people. I really suspect it is. I also suspect that the learning that happens naturally might not produce a child who is "perfectly" educated by societal standards(but then honestly, who is?), but is in truth educated perfectly adequately for their purposes in life.
Willa wrote:
| the goal is that the student grow to be "Catholic with the consent of all his faculties." Another way it is expressed is "prepared to be a Catholic influence on the sphere in which he (the adult) will move and live." |
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We're talking about saints here, aren't we? It's a lofty goal. We can't make a saint by moving them from point A to point B, and being a saint does not revolve around being a scholar. It probably has a lot more to do with being an example of God's love for our children--respecting them, loving them, guiding them, gently redirecting them when they are heading away from God...in other words being a good parent(and maybe a bit of a saint ourselves? ). As homeschoolers we so value being "educated", but that isn't the defining factor is it?
I think I might sound confident of this. I'm not. I'm hearing whisperings that are telling me these things and I want to have the confidence to believe them, but I'm still insecure. I'm trying to sound this out to myself. It's helping so much to write these things out and work through them here.
Thanks for all the thoughts. They have helped me so much! I'm looking forward to hearing what else you have to say and what others have to contribute. You all are such wise and thoughtful women. I'm so blessed to be able to work through things with you guys.
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: Dec 29 2005 at 10:39am | IP Logged
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Cindy wrote:
Most often when we decide to homeschool we are breaking away from the pack. Now if our children 'fail' it is our fault and we cannot blame the schools.
If we take the alternate path you described above, breaking away from mainstream homeschoolers, are we again facing that same potential critcism? We did not follow this plan, this curriclum or do what the rest of the crowd did, so if we fail it is all our fault?
This sounds like the static you mentioned. Are we afraid to step out? We have lots of voices in the traditional world guiding us, but when we rely on the Holy Spirit, it gets scary. And then we also have to explain ourselves. |
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What wonderful insight. That's me! I'm terrified. I'm worried that the whisperings in my heart are not the Holy Spirit, but some sort of evil whisperings taking me away from Truth. The main reason for thinking this is simply that I've stepped away from a very holy crowd. I am so grateful for the wonderful Catholic unschoolers that are out there. You guys give me confidence.
But this is a lesson I think I'm being asked to learn. What if you guys weren't out there? What if I was truly being asked to do something by the Holy Spirit that no one else was doing? I need to figure out how to discern. I need to find a way to be confident without a crowd surrounding me.
I suppose this is somewhat off topic, but it really is an underlying foundation to my struggle. Thanks for giving such a clear voice to it!
Cindy wrote:
| And btw, I don't think you sounded cuckoo! |
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That's good.
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ladybugs
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tovlo4801 wrote:
| I want to be able to focus on the day and not worry about whether what we're doing will take us to some place I'm not even sure we should be. |
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Richelle,
I have thought about this alot and I think that this idea - about the time we have on the planet - has truly influenced me. Because during our last unemployment crises, there were times I didn't know how I was going to feed my children...now, it sounds totally incredible to say that, but honestly, it wasn't as bad as it sounded. Perhaps, it's because I'm on the other side of that now but really, when you depend on God...He delivers...Anyway, the point of making that comment was because I didn't know how I was going to feed my children sometimes (and they always did get food) but living that way really caused me to reflect on living in the moment. What was the sense of worrying going to help, anyway?
I was talking with a friend yesterday and we, too, were talking about this very thing - living in the moment. Which led us to question, "If we died tomorrow, how would our children remember us?" Which led us to the questions, "Do we love?, Do we have joy?" I don't mean fun - although that never hurts with learning - but do we have joy? Aren't joy and love the ingredients needed to inspire? Aren't joy and love the basis of having a passion in learning?
I think, as I have seen it work here in my home, that there is a way to combine joy, excellence, diligence and education...but it just doesn't wear the face of what we have come to see as traditional education. Some of the best discussions with my children on morality have been in the car. It seems silly to say that based on the ages of my children but we have discussed abortion, lying, stealing, looting, etc...Isabella learning about multiplication happens in folding the laundry..."fold 4 things for 4 people." Recently, she sat down at the computer and typed up her letter to Santa.
As I mentioned in another thread, Isabella has also been doing Saxon Math. She initiated it and she enjoys it. My Sophia really enjoys workbooks. Juliana, is a beautiful singer. And based on what I have observed here, I want learning to be tangible to my children and not a product...
Anyway, those are my thoughts fwtw...
I hope everyone is well today...our physical loss of Barbara is really our gain...I've been praying to her, already....
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Love and God Bless,
Maria P
My etsy store - all proceeds go to help my fencing daughters!
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Cindy
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ladybugs wrote:
| Some of the best discussions with my children on morality have been in the car. |
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Me, too Maria.
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Cindy in Texas
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Willa
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tovlo4801 wrote:
| What wonderful insight. That's me! I'm terrified. I'm worried that the whisperings in my heart are not the Holy Spirit, but some sort of evil whisperings taking me away from Truth. The main reason for thinking this is simply that I've stepped away from a very holy crowd. I am so grateful for the wonderful Catholic unschoolers that are out there. You guys give me confidence. |
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I know I've dealt with this too. One thing that occurs to me though is that all the Catholic homeschoolers I really admire, that I think are holiest, are the ones that are flexible and responsive to the needs of their family and children. The other key to me is that these holy Catholic homeschoolers usually say right up front that the parents are given the particular sacramental graces to raise and educate their own children. So those holy Catholic homeschoolers acknowledge that they can give advice and share experience with others but in the end, each couple is uniquely qualified and eternally predestined to lead their own children in the ways that really matter.
Personally, I'm taking the unschooling thing a step at a time. I called this fall a sabbatical in order to get around my anxiety. I figured that a term or even a school year to discern and try to examine my assumptions and status quo would not hurt me or my kids in the long term. The oldest kid at home, the one who's closest to graduation, is the one I feel is in most need of "deschooling" of all my kids. When I think about him, I think he needs a year to get his bearings and make a personal commitment to his future. Who cares if he enters college or the workforce a bit late! We live in the land of opportunity; it's never TOO late. My mom got her nursing degree when she was in her mid-40's -- summa cum laude too.
I pray about once a month during Mass to ask God for guidance, where he is taking me with this unschooling bit. Funny, I did not do that as much when I was more structured. I always get reassurance that I'm on the right track, or perhaps, a couple of hints of things I could tweak -- character issues of my own, mostly. So I see that in myself, perhaps I sometimes build up a safe hedge around myself by doing things "right" -- cautiously. A bit like the man who buried his talent in the ground for (to me) admirable motives, so it would be kept safe and not lost, but his Master did not think that was the right strategy. That tells me our Master doesn't want us to devote too much effort to making ourselves "safe" -- which I am afraid is one of my own main problems, personally, so I'm not analyzing you, Richelle, just telling about what I've seen in myself because of this trial of unschooling!
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AMDG
Willa
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: What should the goal be?
