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Loren
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| Posted: Aug 12 2008 at 4:54pm | IP Logged
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We have been using Five in a Row since my sixth grader (3rd of 4) was in Kindergarten. I love the literature approach and the books we use are great. But after six years of this, I still don't know how to make it work. 
We read the book, but as soon as the story (or chapter now that we've moved to Beyond) is over, everyone scatters. I am sitting on the couch with a few things I want them to hear about railroad history and they are leaping around the room shooting lasers at each other.  No one is listening, much less engaging in conversation.
Just yesterday I started our conversation on shelters and between the 9 and 11yo,with much prompting from me, they came up with houses, igloos, and tents. When I asked about the first shelters, they stuck with the tent idea. When we finally got someone to say cave, they wanted to know how caves were made.
"Yes!" I thought we had finally reached a teachable moment. We migrated to the computer and did a search. We found a site that told us about limestone cave formation, but they were more interested in the pictures of cave animals.
"OK," I thought, "I can be flexible." So we opened the pictures of cave animals and started reading about the crab. As soon as I started reading, the 9yo was on the other side of the room jumping on the couch. He bounced back long enough to point to another picture, then again to glance at that one after it came up.
The don't listen. They don't learn, they just want to look at the pictures and go play. They think that anything that requires thought is a waste of their time. Every time I ask a question I get a blank look in return.
I'm starting to get discouraged and it's only the second week of school! 
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Katie
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| Posted: Aug 12 2008 at 5:11pm | IP Logged
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Loren,
I am no expert by any means, but in order to avoid what you described I have to have things planned and printed and ready to go. I'm thinking craft, coloring page, book to read about a topic, themed snack etc. You titled your post "conversational learning" so I'm not sure if this applies, but as we produce things for lapbooks and notebooks we cover the lessons I want to (mostly) and go off on the occasional rabbit trail. For the example you gave about the dwellings, it might be something as simple as having a big sheet of paper and some markers ready, so that you can brainstorm different dwellings and draw them on your poster. I might have a book handy to give us ideas or help with the pictures. Nothing too onerous, but it keeps the focus on the lesson. Other options might be making a cave out of legos/clay/rocks and talking as you create.
Sometimes the best conversations happen while in the car (captive audience!) or while doing another activity together, so all is not lost if it doesn't happen right away.
I hope that helps a bit. It is no fun to be discouraged so early in the school year, so I hope your spirits are lifted soon.
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Mother of 5 in South America. No 6 due in April.
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JeniferS
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| Posted: Aug 13 2008 at 12:29am | IP Logged
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Loren,
Your household sounds alot like mine...even down to the jumping on the couch bit! I don't have any words of advice as I was so discouraged today that I actually drove down to the school to look into registering my children.  Thankfully, I didn't but I do feel your pain.
Katie, I love your ideas! If you feel up to it, I'd love hear more of your ideas and the way that you teach...
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Jenifer, mom to Harrison, 7 and Olivia, 5
The Way We Learn
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missionfamily
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| Posted: Aug 13 2008 at 8:39am | IP Logged
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Loren--First let me say, you're not the only one this happens to. Second, little boys can learn a lot while jumping on the couch! Don't give up.
With a program that relies on books and extensions, remember that the book itself is most important. If they're sitting for the read-aloud, they're getting the big chunk of the lesson.
At first, you may really need to plan the extensions out as Katie recommended. Giving them something to do while you talk may help them focus as well. Perhaps they could draw pictures about the story and then explain them or model something from the story from beeswax. My guys need a focus and if I am guiding the conversation or activity, I have to have them sitting around the table. The couch and open spaces are too enticing for shenanigans of all sorts to occur. Having them at the table and giving them something to do while we talk has really worked wonders. Also, don't be afraid to let the story process for a day or two before you begin conversations. Perhaps they run off and play afterwards, but if that story is a living one, it is taking shape on its own in their minds. They may have more to say about it after a day or two.
ANother thing that intrigues my kids is a visual display. If we are going to talk about shelters, maybe I'd put the book on a little easel with a small Playmobil tent and house, a wooden cave, and a toy teepee...it piques their curiousity and let's the discussion flow...."Mommy, why are all these things here?" "Well, what do they all have in common?".....
I'll try to come back later and share a few more ideas if time permits.
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Colleen
dh Greg
mom to Quinn,Gabriel, Brendan,Evan, Kolbe, and sweet St. Bryce
Footprints on the Fridge
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monique
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| Posted: Aug 13 2008 at 9:46am | IP Logged
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I'll be watching this thread closely. I have four boys and I struggle with this all the time! Right down to the bouncing on the couch part! As well as the registering them in school part!
I asked my husband the other day, "Why do I do this to myself? Why don't I just put them (him) in school?" I answered my own question because I know we'd have problems then also. Then I would have teachers and a school to deal with.
Love your ideas, Colleen! I've found the planning really does help even though I'm not always good about it. The table idea is a good one too but they often start picking on each other when we are around the table for too long. So short lessons are important for us.
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Monique
mom to 5
Raising Saints
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Aug 13 2008 at 11:25am | IP Logged
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My boys are really active as well - in fact almost all read alouds you can find them both hanging upside down from the backside of the couch. I had to let go the idea that if I read, all would be snuggled quietly around me in rapt pleasure. Sometimes they do that, but most often, I'm bouncing the baby, while my 3yo jumps from couch to dh's chair and my 7yo hangs upside down.
Some things I've learned - and I'm echoing Katie and Colleen here a good bit to let you know that there advice is sound...
Think it through, plan it out and be realistic. If you know that your crew isn't going to sit at the computer with you for any amount of time - don't even bother planning it. If you know that 5 minutes is the absolute max everyone will engage, plan short, short lessons. If they're really interested, you've got plans in mind or written down so that you can extend your lessons to meet them where they are.
Set up some learning centers before you ever crack open a book. I couldn't agree more with Colleen - these are so inviting to the children and draw them in. Spend some time with this and put thought into it. Make it appealing to look at, and allow the children to touch and explore.
If you're studying shelters, set out your books on a small easel or display. Turning a book with its face out makes it very enticing to children. Then, set out some different shelters - go shopping in your toy box, make some felt tents, log cabins, maybe an igloo made of fleece balls glued together. Now, set out a basket of goodies, perhaps one basket for each dwelling - so one for tents, one for igloos, one for a twig hut, one for a log cabin. In each basket set out some raw materials for the children to create a dwelling. You might want this to be creative - so set out fluffy white fleece balls and some elmers glue and a stainless steel bowl in one basket and let them create an igloo. Or...maybe you'd rather them create something more realistic. Set out a cold cookie sheet, a bowl of ice cubes, a small bowl to use as a form, and some yellow dishwashing gloves to protect their hands while they work with the ice cubes. NOW, bring out the book or printed computer blurb on igloos - read it again if you want to. I guarantee they'll listen now because their hands and minds are engaged in the activity.
You can do this for all of your dwellings - I think it would be neat to read about those cultures who make their dwellings out of twigs. Before or maybe after (just feel them out, maybe both before and after) you read, tell them that tomorrow you're going on a scavenger hunt in the backyard to collect twigs for them to create a hut. Give them each a basket and let them do just that. Then, set up a tray or basket with all of the supplies that the culture you just read about uses to make their dwellings - twine? mud? Might be an outside project. 
What you've done is enforced your conversational learning with something active and that engages and captures their imagination. It doesn't discount that beautiful living book in any way, it supports it, reinforces it, makes it real!
Don't be discouraged, Loren! Use this as an opportunity to learn about how your children learn - then just tweak what you're already doing great a little more to meet them. 
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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amyable
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| Posted: Aug 13 2008 at 3:46pm | IP Logged
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My olders are girls, but they do their fair share of bouncing around, LOL.
One thing I've found is that some of them actually listen BETTER when they are moving. I let those ones jump around and try to keep them engaged with conversation. They may look like they are not paying attention, but they are (at least some of the time, for my kids.  ) I've often thought about getting one of those exercise bikes. 
I don't know how it works with Beyond FIAR, but I've found that I get better responses when I try to casually discuss things right in the middle of a chapter. They are still engaged because they want to hear what happens next, but I can interject my thoughts on everything here and there. That is, if I know anything to interject (which points to being prepared beforehand! )
If it's something like a coloring page I'll present it beforehand so they can work when I read.
Sometimes presenting things the next day helps. "Remember when we read yesterday about Gettysburg? Here's a website/article/picture about it." Then we move on to todays reading.
But honestly, for my family, the FIAR way felt SO contrived it never worked for us. I dropped Prairie Primer for the same reason. To pick little things from the reading (like studying immunizations because someone contracted polio in the book) just doesn't fly with my kids. Me either, really. Although it works great for other families! Here, it would look more like: I'm reading and they mention polio. I ask who knows what it is and then we discuss it a minute or I may google something (or show something I've previously gotten ready which is rare, LOL). Then we move on in the book and they'll mention something else worth discussing (today it was why people had children at home in the 1800's. My kids were surpised to learn people still did it and that their mother would have if their father let them ). Then we simply move on again with the story. The kids *really* seem to pick up a lot this way.
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of 
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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missionfamily
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| Posted: Aug 14 2008 at 8:01am | IP Logged
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Loren--After mulling this over for a while , I had one more thought that I wanted to share. Maybe you need to reverse the flow of the FIAR set-up. There plan relies on one book and lets of activities and conversations. Perhaps your kids will learn better with lots of books and one or two meaningful conversations or activities.
So instead of getting through that one book and then trying to keep their attention while you teach something, you could set up a book basket for your shelter study, with books that have all the kinds of shelters you want to cover--a camping book, a book with an igloo, a book with teepees or huts, etc...As you read the stories with the kids, draw their attention to the different kinds of homes people live in in the stories.
Does that make sense? With little ones, reading is sometimes a lot easier and more reliable a habit than a lot of activities that require a long attenion span, planning from mom, and special materials. Just another thought....
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Colleen
dh Greg
mom to Quinn,Gabriel, Brendan,Evan, Kolbe, and sweet St. Bryce
Footprints on the Fridge
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Conversational learning: How does it work
