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mary
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i read someone's blog today soul of the home about decompressing and realized that this is what we have been doing for the past month. it was much needed. earlier, i read theresa's schedule for next year in the rhythm's post. her schedule is to "have adventures, do some math and then more adventures." i read it to my kiddos and they thought it would be splendid.
my kids are 10, almost 8, 5 and 2. they are young and yet, my years with my oldest are disappearing fast! i have a girlfriend who is 1 core ahead of me in sonlight. i plan to do 2 cores (4 and prek) this year and wondered how to fit it all in. her suggestion is to get up earlier and continue later in the afternoon. that sounds painful to me and not my view of homeschooling at all. that's more like school at home. kwim?
what appeals to me more is to ditch the schedule, pile the books in a basket and grab what we like when we want to read them. i'm chicken to make the jump to unschooling. my girlfriend and i were talking last night about wanting to make learning more fun. using games for language arts instead of workbooks. using bravewriter instead of IEW. she commented that if we planned to send our kids to a rigorous catholic high school (as my dh does) that unschooling is not a good 'prep.'
so, i wonder what those of you who have made the plunge to unschooling think about whether it prepares a child for a rigorous high school. what pushed you to unschool? what holds you back if you are on the edge as i am?
eta - soul of the home blogger - i tried to leave a comment on your blog linking to this post but was unable to do so. sorry!
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SallyT
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Hi Mary --
More than once here I've heard this formulation -- "unschool-Charlotte Mason-Classical" -- offered as a kind of alternative trivium, and it seems kind of right to me. Until the middle-school age, nothing you do (with the exception of math, maybe) really counts as preparation for high school, as such. To my mind what really matters early on is nurturing a love of learning, a desire to learn, and an ability to learn -- in other words, nurturing the child's assumption that he can learn, himself, more or less on his own, much of what he needs to learn, rather than having to be taught it.
We began homeschooling when my oldest, now 14, was 9, and we have been -- not 100% unschoolers, but definitely unschooly in our approach. Mostly we've read a lot, not necessarily schematically, and my oldest has done a lot of writing, because she likes to write -- last year she wrote, revised, and helped to direct a play in our local children's theatre, with the help of her drama teacher. In typical unschooly fashion, I pretty much let that be "composition/grammar" for the year.
My daughter just finished 9th grade, not in school but having taken her core classes through a co-op. I was the English teacher, and I guess I was rigorous. Certainly my class complained a lot about having to write a 10-page paper, when their college-age siblings weren't writing papers that long ("Wimps," I said). We also read a fairly challenging cycle of literature, including The Iliad, The Odyssey, The Aeneid, Antigone, Shakespeare, etc. I have taught both high-school and college-level English, and I taught the class as a demanding college-prep class. My daughter was the youngest student in the class, and had had probably the least formal preparation in the years just prior to taking this class, but she more than held her own. In fact, she was one of the two consistently strongest writers in the class, despite not having had much formal instruction in writing from me before. She also really excelled in Latin (in the first Henle book), in a class taught by a parish priest with very high standards, even though we had not done Latin terribly schematically up to that point, just played around with it.
Math is another story . . . here I wish I had pushed more, just to keep her more on track, because left to her own devices, she wouldn't do it at all. That, too, has been evident this year, and it's been a relief to have a sympathetic tutor to help us get it all sorted out.
My overall take, and the instinct that I'm following with my younger children, ages 10, 5 and 4, is that areas in which a child naturally excels -- for my oldest it's reading, writing, anything artistic; for my next it's science and history and anything to do with politics -- can be unschooled easily and with great success. If a child just naturally pursues something, to my mind making him do lessons in that area is like re-inventing the wheel. You can add in a little here and there -- we have done some basic grammar, for example, in the course of working with my daughter's writing, and I've largely taught spelling that way, too. But I wasn't going to make her do writing assignments for me, of my choosing, when she was spending all her time working on these gigantic self-generated writing projects.
On the other hand, I find that there are things I just have to make them do. I wish I'd made the oldest do math more schematically, and the 10yo now does a little core of daily "sitdown" work which includes math and also writing, because he still struggles with the physical act of handwriting. I'm not comfortable just letting that sort itself out. But in the main, I just let him read, do science experiments, observe things, build things, etc. As he moves into middle school, I will add in some more schematic study -- this year we're going to do sentence diagramming, and next year I want to use Lingua Mater for composition, as he's not a natural writer like his sister (at least not yet!). Those are basics which, with math, I see as essential groundwork for challenging high-school studies.
I don't do anything formal as yet with my two youngest, though we practice reading chapter headings of books we're reading, spell words together, read signs, count things, read math literature, etc. And otherwise they play.
As I said, I've taught in both high-school and college contexts, and my husband is a college professor. He sees students coming to his (theology and humanities) classes unprepared to read actively -- he's had students complain that a book his non-intellectual father used in a Sunday School once was "too hard" -- or to write coherently. To me it seems that if you can do those two things -- and also get along in math -- you can crack pretty much any school situation. High school, in fact, is what's really supposed to prepare people to be able to do those things, and students are best prepared for THAT preparation (I think) by coming to it with some basic skills (knowing how to write a sentence and a paragraph; knowing parts of speech; ready to step into the next level of math), a body of knowledge gained from good and varied reading, and a willingness to learn more. That last is what most of my former students were lacking, and it made getting anywhere with them very difficult.
So anyway, that's my take. I think that at 10 and under you can definitely loosen up, keeping a core amount of sitdown work for the oldest and otherwise reading and playing and exploring.
Sally
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MacBeth
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mary, I'm not going to add too much to what Sally said so well, but as a "classical unschooler" with kids who have done very well in "regular" classes and traditional rigorous high school and college classes, I'll just toss a bit into the discussion. 
I loved this quote:
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| she commented that if we planned to send our kids to a rigorous catholic high school (as my dh does) that unschooling is not a good 'prep.' |
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I profoundly disagree; there is no better preparation.
I just "eavesdropped" on a conversation my ds was having with a classmate. Ds was trying to explain homeschooling to his friend, who could not understand what it would be like to never have attended school. The conversation ended when ds explained that he had been "unschooled," which ds defined as dong whatever he wanted to do, and basically not being educated  (he does not know I heard this). His classmate asked him what his gpa was. I think that's a bit rude, but apparently the boys at school beat each other up with these numbers (like so many Eustaces)  . Ds's friend nearly fell over. He could not believe that anyone could have done "nothing" from pre-k to 8th grade and have the gpa my ds has. 
Of course, the truth is, "unschooling" is not doing nothing...at least not in my house!! It is the kind of education that one gets by being immersed in a home that values education and learning rather than teaching.
I have always called it "classical unschooling" because the content is similar to the typical classical syllabus, and the method is often Socratic. But there is also a huge amount of freedom in this house, outside this house, and quite far from this house, as the kids expand their horizons.
As for what "pushed" us to unschool, it just happened. I worked as an outdoor educator (which is by nature "alternative" and unconventional), but when I began homeschooling, I was convinced that I needed to enroll in a curriculum provider, and help my children amass information at a record pace. It took all of a few months to realize that this was not going to work, so I recalled all I had learned in the field. Outside, all the world is a school, and every day is different. That's where I thrived as an educator, and where I saw children transformed from reluctant students to lively interactive interested people. Decompression is a powerful thing. If Charlotte Mason got nothing else right, her vision of an "education out of doors" was, and remains, spot-on.
Hmm...I went on a bit longer than I had intended, and with numerous interruptions, so I can only hope this is coherent.  I'm taking Trip (ds mentioned above) to his summer classes at Ave Maria this weekend, so I may not be slow to continue this discussion, but it's such a good one...
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mary
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SallyT wrote:
To my mind what really matters early on is nurturing a love of learning, a desire to learn, and an ability to learn -- in other words, nurturing the child's assumption that he can learn, himself, more or less on his own, much of what he needs to learn, rather than having to be taught it. |
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hmm. i see myself at the crossroads here. my 10 yr old loves to read history. i had gotten a president book to preview for next fall. he read it already. i wanted to tell him, "stop reading that! it's for the fall!" and yet, isn't he supposed to be reading for pleasure and learning and not for duty? it's so easy to get caught up in curriculum buying, esp this time of year. i see spelling programs offered to first graders and think, already?
sally, it helps to hear you say that you wish you had pushed with math. i have heard from many hsers that math is often a weak subject for their kids.
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My overall take, and the instinct that I'm following with my younger children, ages 10, 5 and 4, is that areas in which a child naturally excels |
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this makes so much sense to me. but, what do you do with the 8 yr old who would prefer to play all day? he is very creative but has almost no interest in reading/writing/math. at what age would you require sit down work?
macbeth, i certainly agree that unschooling is work, probably more work than following a curriculum. how does classical unschooling work? does that mean that the books you provide or either classics or specific to their interests? do you require any sit down work? and at what age?
thanks for discussing this!
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Leslie
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I want to chime in and say I was "unschooled" 2nd-6th grade and insisted on going back to school (I was just sure I was the most stupid person alive) in 7th. As it turned out, I was more than prepared for 7th grade (all "gifted" classes, except for math). I was actually often bored, unchallenged (straight A's came naturally) and I didn't know a few things about protocol (where to write the name and date on assignments). It became clear pretty quickly (to me, my parents already knew this) that I had been learning just fine on my own.
9th grade I went to a private and very competitive school and still did great.
I ended up homeschooling most of 11th and all of 12th grade. By then, I knew where I wanted to go to college and designed my own curriculum based on what NYU said they would want from me. (I always feel like I have to put this disclaimer here: I went to NYU, was on the dean list, but didn't ever graduate. Had to do with money and family issues...)
That being said, I'm still have a hard time making the leap of faith toward unschooling--even thought it seems to be what is coming naturally to our family. I'm still sorting this out...but I think I've blamed a lot of my
"issues" on being unschooled and I have to put that to rest. The fact of the matter is I'd probably have been this quirky (and at times undisciplined) no matter what my educational background. There are always going to be areas we all can improve in ourselves.
I've been doing Elizabeth's book study..and I'm really struck with the three parts of CM's educational philosophy (I'm new to this): Atmosphere, Discipline and Life. I think these areas will take different shape for everyone. Even though we didn't have workbooks, textbooks or "learning time" when I was growing up we did live in an Atmosphere where learning was fun, encouraged and at the very heart off Life. The skills to write an A paper in college were never "taught" to me. Exposure to good literature, interesting people and lots of time to think, discuss and write what I was thinking about seemed to prepare me just fine.
My homemaking preparation... I've just started a course on this...in my 30's. About time.
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Leslie
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mary
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Leslie wrote:
That being said, I'm still have a hard time making the leap of faith toward unschooling--even thought it seems to be what is coming naturally to our family. I'm still sorting this out...but I think I've blamed a lot of my
"issues" on being unschooled and I have to put that to rest. The fact of the matter is I'd probably have been this quirky (and at times undisciplined) no matter what my educational background. There are always going to be areas we all can improve in ourselves.
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my hubby and were talking about this today. do kids in general have the same social skills as their parents, regardless of their education? so, would we all be as disciplined (or undisciplined!) as we are whether were were hsed, public or private schooled? and do disciplined kids excel in an unschooling environment while a less disciplined kid would need more structure to excel?
thanks leslie, i really enjoy hearing from someone who was unschooled. if you don't mind sharing, what keeps you from making the leap of faith in your family? and isn't it funny how it's a leap of faith and not a conviction that this is Right? at least, i feel that way myself about it. 
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SallyT
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I think -- and this would just be my strategy, not a universal cure -- that with the 8-year-old, I'd do a small core of sitdown work, maybe lasting at most two hours. Here's where Charlotte Mason can be a real help -- do the short lessons. Do fifteen or twenty minutes of math and no more. Ditto copywork (that covers language arts very thoroughly, so you don't have to have so many separate moving parts). If the child isn't a naturally voracious reader, assign ten minutes of independent reading in history and/or science, maybe alternating days. Make sure you do some reading aloud daily, and vary your reading aloud to cover different subject areas (Maureen Wittman's For the Love of Literature is a great resource for this), including history, math, science, geography, etc. You can include the 10yo in the read-alouds, too, to save time.
Then I'd make sure that the rest of his time, the play time, is well spent. We don't have a tv in our house, and I have been phasing out video games, though I do allow supervised computer use. Make sure that what there is to do is worth doing: legos, puzzles, good learning games, dress-up costumes, art supplies, books. It's amazing what people will do when there's nothing else to do.
You may also find that play is one way in which some children process what they've been reading or hearing about, in which case you can relax and consider it part of learning. For some very kinetic children, active play can be a very real way of internalizing stories and information.
OK, the rest of my family is going out the door to my mother's, which is probably just as well, as I think I'm out of things to say! But anyway, I think that's how I'd handle it. Not by totally unschooling, but by covering basics in a short, manageable sitdown format, then letting that be it.
Sally
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lapazfarm
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For us it has been a gradual progression. Not one thing that pushed us over the edge, but just more and more me realizing that my son(12 yo) learned and retained more from his own pursuits than from anything I tried to teach him. I noticed that he could eagerly study a ton of info and ace an exam to earn his NC boater safety certification, but it was like pulling teeth to get him to recall any info at all about Mesopotamia from SOTW CDs. Go figure, right?
That's not saying our times learning together have not been fruitful, because they have. And I have no intention of holding back sharing what I know with my dc. But I am through being the "source of all knowledge." I see myself more as guide and companion on a journey than teacher or expert. My son is learning to think for himself, that knowledge is our friend, and his mind craves learning like his adolescent body craves food--practically 24/7!
(right now it is nearly midnight, 80 degrees and bright as day, and my son is sitting here eating buttered toast and reading "In a Sunburned Country" by Bill Bryson. I absolutely cannot keep up!)
And as to whether this will prepare him for a rigorous high school, I have no idea. What I am interested in is that ds be prepared for life, no matter what it may throw at him.And so far I like what I am seeing.
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mary
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SallyT wrote:
I think -- and this would just be my strategy, not a universal cure -- that with the 8-year-old, I'd do a small core of sitdown work, maybe lasting at most two hours. Here's where Charlotte Mason can be a real help -- do the short lessons. Do fifteen or twenty minutes of math and no more. Ditto copywork (that covers language arts very thoroughly, so you don't have to have so many separate moving parts). If the child isn't a naturally voracious reader, assign ten minutes of independent reading in history and/or science, maybe alternating days. Make sure you do some reading aloud daily, and vary your reading aloud to cover different subject areas (Maureen Wittman's For the Love of Literature is a great resource for this), including history, math, science, geography, etc. You can include the 10yo in the read-alouds, too, to save time.
Then I'd make sure that the rest of his time, the play time, is well spent. We don't have a tv in our house, and I have been phasing out video games, though I do allow supervised computer use. Make sure that what there is to do is worth doing: legos, puzzles, good learning games, dress-up costumes, art supplies, books. It's amazing what people will do when there's nothing else to do.
You may also find that play is one way in which some children process what they've been reading or hearing about, in which case you can relax and consider it part of learning. For some very kinetic children, active play can be a very real way of internalizing stories and information.
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thanks sally, this helps. it's pretty much what we have been doing. we don't have any video games and the kids watch very little tv. we have some property and we like to be outside as much as possible.
theresa, i know what you mean about not being the source of all knowledge - my 10 yr old gobbles up info about history and baseball and has long since surpassed what i know. i see how being a guide to a self-starter is ideal. i'm just feeling my way with knowing when to let them go and when to pull them along.
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monique
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Oh wow, this is all so fascinating! I love hearing how unschoolers learn and what they do with their days. I would love to make this leap but oh my, it would be a huge leap for us! But for us the tv would have to stay off and that would be the biggest difficulty.
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Leslie
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Quote:
my hubby and were talking about this today. do kids in general have the same social skills as their parents, regardless of their education? so, would we all be as disciplined (or undisciplined!) as we are whether were were hsed, public or private schooled? and do disciplined kids excel in an unschooling environment while a less disciplined kid would need more structure to excel?
thanks leslie, i really enjoy hearing from someone who was unschooled. if you don't mind sharing, what keeps you from making the leap of faith in your family? and isn't it funny how it's a leap of faith and not a conviction that this is Right? at least, i feel that way myself about it. |
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Mary, you are asking the same questions I am.
I wish I had a quick answer as to why it worked for me and why I'm still not sure of the "right" answer for our family. I'm still praying...and hope that I always will be about the upbringing of our children.
Just an observation: I was very *schooly* (for lack of a better word ) as a child. I loved anything that smacked of a classroom. My mom avoided workbooks like the plague. I gravitated right toward them (at least in my younger days). My brother was the opposite. He resisted anything that sounded like it might be contrived learning. My parents were unconcerned about this, for the most part. He didn't learn to read until he was around 10. Then he took off at lightning speed from there (I remember him reading a college physics text for "fun" when he was 13 and back in public school at the time). When he transitioned into regular school he had a tough time academically at first. He just wasn't accustomed to so much structure. He, however, went on to graduate from college with honors and pursue his dreams in the theater. He is a happy soul and looks back at homeschooling as something "fun" and "somewhat useful".
I think flexibility is key. Then again, we have a family motto started by my dad: "Indecision is the key to flexibility" which doesn't *always* serve me well.
It is so great to have a place to ponder all of this with you all...
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Leslie
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almamater
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Mary-
Thanks for the link to my blog post. My husband looked rather startled to learn that I had posted something that inspired a list thread about unschooling. He is very much in favor of rigorous school-like schooling. Workbooks, syllabi, checklists, schedules, tests. Just writing that list makes me jittery.
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Leonie
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We are unschooly. Why do we always return to unchooly-ness? I guess becsue this seems to bethe way my kids, all boys, learn best - by exploring passions and iterests together.
We do a bit of formal work, lots of strewing, lots of reading and movies and music and a fair amount of activities and socialising and chores. Over time, I have seen that we cover most of the traditional school curriculum this way - and a whole lot more.
I now have four unschooly homeschool graduates and, having seen positive fruits and had dicussions with these sons about why unschooly-ness works for us, I am continuing with being unschooly for the last three sons. And for me.
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Mary G
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MacBeth wrote:
Of course, the truth is, "unschooling" is not doing nothing...at least not in my house!! It is the kind of education that one gets by being immersed in a home that values education and learning rather than teaching.
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MacBeth -- I love the way you put this -- this is how I would love my kids to see their learning experiences. I want them to "love learning" while they're little so that when they have to take the tests necessary for college (if that's the direction they want to go than they'll be able to do that.
macbeth wrote:
I have always called it "classical unschooling" because the content is similar to the typical classical syllabus, and the method is often Socratic. But there is also a huge amount of freedom in this house, outside this house, and quite far from this house, as the kids expand their horizons.
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Is this because of the types of books you have around the house, the things you do as a family (classical music rather than pop?), a natural affinity to this style of learning or a conscious scheduling of classical books?
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MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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mary
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almamater wrote:
Mary-
Thanks for the link to my blog post. My husband looked rather startled to learn that I had posted something that inspired a list thread about unschooling. He is very much in favor of rigorous school-like schooling. Workbooks, syllabi, checklists, schedules, tests. Just writing that list makes me jittery. |
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jennifer, it sounds like our husbands feel the same way! and thank you for blogging about this topic because it's really been good for my family to talk about how we want to learn. it's so easy to get caught up in all the 'school planning' that goes round in hsing circles. so, if you don't mind sharing, what are your unschooly plans for next year?
leonie, do you sometimes deviate from unschooling and then go back to it?
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SallyT
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Mary G. --
I don't know how Macbeth would answer this, but for us it's some combination of the books and the ideals. Our way of doing things is loose, but what's on offer in our house by way of books, conversation, and, I guess, atmosphere, is all a function of our belief in Western Civilization/Christendom and its traditions. Everything's kind of geared towards understanding that things don't just come out of nowhere, and that the whole point of learning and living is doing our best to understand where we come from, so that we have some kind of compass for where we're going.
I'd say more about that, but I have to read bedtime stories now!
Sally
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almamater
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Quote:
| jennifer, it sounds like our husbands feel the same way! and thank you for blogging about this topic because it's really been good for my family to talk about how we want to learn. it's so easy to get caught up in all the 'school planning' that goes round in hsing circles. so, if you don't mind sharing, what are your unschooly plans for next year? |
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Mary,
I am still working this out through prayer and conversation. I am thinking for the most part our "school" work will center on Latin, Math and Religion. But, I need to work out some concrete ideas of how we will weave the rest into our week for the sake of my husband. We all love studying history, so historical fiction read alouds will be front and center. Nature has drifted from our lives and will return this season in a big way. I am going to pin my dh down to a meal each day that we can eat together (he is a private piano teacher, so the schedule varies from day to day). I have started making a bigger deal about not letting the children wander from the table as they chew their last bite. In other words, I want to make sure there is a relaxed time for conversation. (though, not forced, I hope)
Oh, there is so much more whirling about, but the thoughts are too primitive to convey at this point. I know I will be raising more questions here and blogging about it all more as my thoughts gel.
What ideas do you have for softening the schooly edge?
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~jennifer in tx
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Leonie
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| Posted: July 09 2008 at 3:49am | IP Logged
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mary wrote:
| leonie, do you sometimes deviate from unschooling and then go back to it? |
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Yep, when my older kids were youngr I'd try to do a term of more formal CM or unit studies or classical. It never quite worked - we always went back to unschooly-ness. Just fits our rhythms better, I guess.
I say unschooly-ness rather than unschooling since I also went through a stage of trying to be a pure or radical unschooler - and again ended up right back atwhere we started - mostly unschooling but with a few minimal have tos. And some parental boundaries, even those thesey may be broader than the boundaries set by other friends...
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Leonie in Sydney
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MacBeth
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| Posted: July 09 2008 at 8:05pm | IP Logged
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SallyT wrote:
Mary G. --
I don't know how Macbeth would answer this, but for us it's some combination of the books and the ideals. Our way of doing things is loose, but what's on offer in our house by way of books, conversation, and, I guess, atmosphere, is all a function of our belief in Western Civilization/Christendom and its traditions. Everything's kind of geared towards understanding that things don't just come out of nowhere, and that the whole point of learning and living is doing our best to understand where we come from, so that we have some kind of compass for where we're going.
Sally |
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I think that's a good way to put it, Sally. And I totally forgot the word "atmosphere" which CM used frequently.
Mary G wrote:
Is this because of the types of books you have around the house, the things you do as a family (classical music rather than pop?), a natural affinity to this style of learning or a conscious scheduling of classical books?
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Oh, it's pretty much the former. In other words, the house is full of classical content, whether music or books, or art; and the conversations that abound, while informal, are necessarily grammatically correct, with a strong vocabulary. It's just the way we are, and that kind of atmosphere makes unschooling easy.
Still, despite the best atmosphere possible, some children struggle with things more than others. Reading problems and language issues run in my family. I do have one child who needs slightly more intensive lessons in language arts. This child is working through many of her limitations herself, though, with encouragement from me. She recognizes her weaknesses, and asks me to spot check, sometimes. Some writings, like her blog, she does not wish me to correct, and I respect that--a very difficult attitude for me to maintain, sometimes!! But I do look at the blog from time to time, and see that she is making amazing progress without my constant help.
Blah blah. I'm rambling. Interesting discussion, though, and one I have not revisited in writing for a while.
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MacBeth in NY
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Kristie 4
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| Posted: July 09 2008 at 10:54pm | IP Logged
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Not rambling at all Mac Beth. It is very interesting to hear about the different ways your kids learn- I also have ones that just suck up the atmosphere like sponges in all the areas and ones that need specific help in the language arts sections. It is good to look at our kids individually and your post was a good reminder of that.
Thanks Mary for starting this thread!
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Kristie in Canada
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: unschooling questions
