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mom2mpr
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| Posted: Jan 08 2008 at 7:12am | IP Logged
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I have been making my very bright but stubborn(maybe also lazy) son do "stuff" the past few months. Starting with schoolwork and trickling down to chores. I was more natural learner oriented until I saw him falling behind and we started thinking of putting him in school. I figure the school would make him do his work, I could too. I make him do a workbook lesson or two of Singapore math, a lesson or two of Learning Language Arts through Literature, we all do a religion lesson of some sort, and some other things like some history and Rosetta Stone spanish as we can fit it in. The rest is based on his interests--but now he has none. He is not as thrilled about learning as he had been. He seems kind of angry.
I am thinking he will get over it and see all this really doesn't take long once you start if you apply yourself. I want him to realize he is going to have to do things in life he doesn't want too. I don't think I am asking a lot. I am also trying to get him more independent in his work. I need to work with dd too.
I use the Pizza Hut Book-it program(said I would never bribe my kids to read) to get some copywork, book reports, and such out of him. This month I told him once a week he needs to read a chapter from his book, pick 2(not 12  ) sentences and copy them. He flatly refuses and doesn't care about the pizza now. Grrrrr...
So, my questions to you oh experienced ones is...should I stay the course? should I relax a little(sorry, I am not giving in with math)? Ideas to make it a little less painful to one who went with the flow and now has to change gears a little to move him along? Am I wrong to push this tiny bit? My mom, dh, nearby homeschoolers are more rigid than this. I need more discipline, structure, routines. I am homeschooling to give them an awesome education. Right now I feel I am behind the ps system and not doing well at my job.
Anne
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mom2mpr
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| Posted: Jan 08 2008 at 7:14am | IP Logged
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To help you understand ds better-he just turned 10.
I am seeing some preteen "attitude" at times.
Anne
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Anne
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| Posted: Jan 08 2008 at 7:33am | IP Logged
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Hey Anne,
I also have a 10 yr old. DD goes through phases where everyting I want her to do is too hard. She can't do it by herself she has no confidence. I know there is a vast difference in boys and girls. I also have a very active son 7yrs.
What is it your son would rather be doing other than the schooling you assign?
Perhaps you could find a compromise to suite both of you. If he likes computer/video games, give him comp time for doing his school work. ie Read for 30 mins computer for 30 min. I know we would all like to have children who just wake up and love the idea of learning but they act the same way in publice school.
For a time I had my dc in ps and when they came home with a mountain of home work, it was the same as trying to get them to do the assignments I gave them... Pulling teeth! 
Is there a reason you feel he needs to be on the same level with the public school?
If you are planning to put him in eventually I understand, however, if it is just social pressure; RELAX.
Your children will go through changes and as long as you are consistent he will come around. If he sees this behavior is causing you to waiver or change drastically he will continue. This is just my rambling thinking. Take what you like and I hope things get better soon. From the other Anne with an E
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: Jan 08 2008 at 8:43am | IP Logged
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Honestly, because you say that chores are also an issue, and because you use the term "flatly refuses" it seems more like a discipline problem than a homeschooling one.
I am not a strict disciplinarian, and my homeschool is anything but rigid. But...and please do not take this wrong...over the age of about 2, my children had better not ever flatly refuse to do something I have told them. I don't care what it is, if I say do it, then they do it, like it or not. I am the mom, after all.
Now, that being said, I bend over backwards to try and make school and family life child-friendly. My kids are pretty much the center of my universe. We talk over their schooling, their chores, and their activity choices and I value their input. When I do ask them to do something, it is usually the result of lots of consideration on my part over what they will enjoy, what their interests are, and what they are capable of. There is lots of room for discussion and revision. Just not dissension.
The things you are asking your son to do don't sound unreasonable to me.It sounds as if you do take his needs and abilities into consideration, along with your own goals for his education. You are obviously trying to make it as fun and pleasant as you can. Now it is time for him to do his part. So, to make a long answer a bit longer, I do not think you are wrong to push. Not at all.
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Erin
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| Posted: Jan 08 2008 at 8:06pm | IP Logged
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Anne
Hugs, I can so relate, only my boy is 12.5yr, so your a step ahead of me  Like you I have been more a natural learner orientated however for him it isn't working as well as his sister.
Theresa has a point, for me at least, much of it is a discipline problem, not always from me although some is, but some is a self-discipline issue, trying to help him care, to internalize and take ownership. The good news is after working at this issue for a while now I am seeing glimmers of him 'getting it' I think this is a combination of maturity (finally) and me being firm.
I have fantasied about sending him to school this year, not because I can't cope with him (after all we have had lots of difficult times) but more because I have felt that I am failing him, I've wondered whether school would motivate him in ways I can't, this from someone who would have never contemplated this before. I have thought if only there was a wonderful Catholic school run by the brothers, however dh has told me that as such a school doesn't exist in Australia any longer I am fantasizing and the schools here will not help any in the discipline area.
I can only say trust your instincts, don't measure your expectations against what your fellow hsers expect, we are all unique, I relaxed and now regret it, firm in the morning, fun in the afternoon. 
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mom2mpr
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| Posted: Jan 08 2008 at 10:08pm | IP Logged
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Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. Yes, we have had some discipline issues and I am tired of dealing with a lot of them. So I waver in my thoughts and plans.
I am staying the course. There are some other issues in our family that contribute. I am just going to have to be the bad guy--for my kids' sake. It does get tiring and I do get sad but they will be better for it in the end. I am glad you don't think I am expecting a lot. I really don't think so either. But at the end of day some days I feel so exhausted pushing for every little bit I can get.
I am doing the best that can be done and putting it in His hands.
Thanks again,
Anne
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SallyT
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| Posted: Jan 08 2008 at 10:16pm | IP Logged
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I can relate, too, because my 10yo son is a griper. EVERYTHING is hard, nothing is fun, wah wah wah. I can say this more breezily than I might otherwise, because I've been comparing notes with friends who also have 10yo boys. It seems to be a syndrome. Once he gets going, he's fine, but getting going! The horror, the horror.
I just try to defuse the whining by pretending not to hear it and to be almost insanely chirpy myself, especially when I see him looking idle and tell him to take out the garbage, to occupy himself profitably.
There was a thread some time back (maybe in the Mother Nurture forum?) about 10yo boys and the need to engage them with "man-jobs" and lots of physical activity. My son tends to be a bit of a couch potato, so we've really been trying to up his level of physical activity, mostly via chores. Over his vociferous protests, mind you, but we pretend not to hear them. We just calmly say, "Go do it, son," and go about our own business.
I read an article by Laura Berquist once in which she related how she had just flatly required one of her children to do ten minutes' reading a day. She handed him the book and he moaned and complained. She said, "You can read for ten minutes; I'll tell you when it's over." At the end of the ten minutes he didn't want to stop.
I can see that that would not always happen, but I think you can just plain require a limited amount of independent reading daily. Ten or even twenty minutes never killed anyone (as I tell my son, in case that isn't obvious). If he doesn't want to choose a book, you choose one. Make a time and say, this is reading time, and here is your reading. Don't offer a bribe or make it a bargain in any way; just tell him what the deal is and hand him the book, and let him know promptly when the time is up. He may not love it, but you won't waste your time and energy in wrangling.
I really do sympathize, because we hear it at our house, too. I think it must be a season or something. My daughter also was difficult at 10, though in different ways. And it's funny -- she is more a natural unschooler, while he has ALWAYS needed more structure, so I am fairly used to taking a different approach with him, which maybe helps me now. I figure we just have to get through it; I also figure that maybe people just can't love learning ALL the time, but that doesn't necessarily let them off the hook.
I'm like Theresa, not a rigid homeschooler AT ALL, or (I hope) an overbearing parent, but some stuff you just have to DO, period. No negotiating. So I agree that you're not at all wrong to push him at this time. And you do SO have company -- mothers of 10yo boys, unite!
Sally
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Kristie 4
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| Posted: Jan 10 2008 at 2:30pm | IP Logged
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Add 10yo girls to that rally please!!
I had three flat out refusals today...and lots of prayer!
I feel like I am running a marathon with this one these days....
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Willa
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| Posted: Jan 10 2008 at 3:07pm | IP Logged
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SallyT wrote:
| I also figure that maybe people just can't love learning ALL the time, but that doesn't necessarily let them off the hook. |
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I was thinking that love isn't always easy!
I guess that is a bit of a tangent, but sometimes you find you have to walk yourself or your kids through something. Love means a commitment to something lovable even when there are difficulties.
I also think that this periods that the kids go through when they are balky are opportunities as well -- not always welcome, but they can be pivotal in deepening the relationship and showing the child what the parents are REALLY about.
In other words, I think whether or not he actually gets through X amount of work -- is less important than what you learn in the process.
Those difficult times sometimes turned out to be rich growing times in our family life, both for me and for the child. I always pray more intensely then and I don't think that hurts either.
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Willa
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Kristie 4
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| Posted: Jan 10 2008 at 5:22pm | IP Logged
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Thank you for your wise words Willa. Some days the marathon seems like it is just about hanging in there, but it is so refreshing to see the bigger picture!
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Kristie in Canada
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ALmom
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| Posted: Jan 11 2008 at 9:03am | IP Logged
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Sometimes, it helps with teen/pre-teen boys, to make the "commands" for school in the form of a lesson plan.
They can own it more and the discipline is more natural consequences than what sometimes seems like nagging. If I see idling, I simply ask to see his work so I can check/review it - obviously if he is idling, then he must be finished, right? Then you simply are stating a fact - gee this isn't done yet ... Then when there is something exciting or everyone is going outside or... you can sympathetically but firmly say, gee, I'm sorry, you simply cannot do such and such because your work is not done. It teaches obedience and responsibility but since it is somewhat motivated by self-interest it sinks in faster - makes it a little less head to head so it diffuses the situation some. I also hand back sloppy work and simply expect it to be redone - no arguing, no nagging - just very matter of fact.
If they complain about the a particular task, I might ask what they think would make it better - the implication is if they have a better idea or need specific help, I'm available, but otherwise they obviously need to just buckle down and do it.
I will say that having very clearly spelled out lesson plans really helps us (we make our own so it doesn't have to be someone else's - just something that you know is suited to the child, is reasonable and very doable. Our child is very active in this plans creation.) It helps reinforce the ownership of learning for us - child knows what needs to be done as it is clearly spelled out and it seems to head off the balking that comes from an angst about not being sure what to do. My children certainly experience more frustration and balking if they feel that expectations are unclear. They'd go nuts with an assignment - "read a book for 10 minutes." If the plan has instructions to pick one of the following books and begin reading (with or without a time limit or # of pages), they respond much better and seem to more readily choose other things to read or even ask if they can substitute from time to time when something better comes to their attention. They absolutely hate vague writing assignments and that will shut down writing at our house in a flash. With some, each day I have a specific step of the process assigned. (One day it might be to make a chart of various character traits listing the page number ....) Eventually they'll write the character sketch referring back to this chart.
Now, I hate to assign a specific book all the time because I'm not sure where their interest might fall in the general area that we're studying or I'm just interested in them reading some sort of quality literature and don't really care what it is. The way I handle this is through summer meetings to plan the next year - getting their input, but also listing a page of choices (whatever I think they might like that corresponds say with the history we're studying) and all books listed on their lesson plan are organized on one shelf convenient to their desk. This list is actually in the actual plan for that day. A different list would be there for a different day. I may have one literature list for the semester and specify that they pick one book off the lit list in the daily plan. (The lit list might contain every unread lit book at their reading level which we have available in our home - but somehow they like it spelled out like that, seems more organized to them or something, so I'm willing to do this). They also know that if they have a great idea about something, they can come to me for permission to substitute. They seem relieved that they don't have to come up with ideas - and what generally happens now is that they do and check off rather easily on the plan but find themselves going on various trails that supplement this.
Calmly sticking to your guns with natural consequences really will help - and sometimes things seem a bit worse before they get better. But it is nice to defuse the situation by not setting up as many potential confrontations by simply having those plans and it seems to relieve a certain amount of angst for most of mine. It is more pleasant for mom that way and, at least for me, easier to be calm about the whole thing and keeps me from chasing the child around sounding like a nag. Sort of keeps implying that they are the responsible party and therefore they are the ones who suffer the consequences for not doing their job. Hope this helps some.
Janet
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amyable
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| Posted: Jan 11 2008 at 10:29am | IP Logged
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Thank you Janet, I was just contemplating whether a lesson plan would be a good idea for my two oldest, and this cemented it! I especially like your idea to let them have a say in it's creation. Silly me, but I never would have thought of that. 
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The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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Kristie 4
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| Posted: Jan 15 2008 at 12:26am | IP Logged
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Janet, this was the realization I was coming to last night. I think some sensitive well laid plans will help dd10 tremendously. Thanks for the affirmation 
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Willa
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| Posted: Jan 15 2008 at 10:22am | IP Logged
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Maureen O'Brien used to give "option" plans to her kids. A sort of point system like:
Read X Book -- 10 points
Hands-on Project -- 10 points
Draw a map -- 5 points.
And so on.
Then it was possible to just tell them they needed say 30 points to complete that part of the project.
This is similar to the idea in
Evaluating for Excellence
It is also somewhat like Nancy Lande's approach for her gifted kids -- she was the editor of Patchwork of Days if you remember.
I never did much with this kind of idea because my mind finds it difficult to organize choices and my kids are a bit the same but it might help someone who wanted "freedom within a structure". The child could help with the choices.
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Willa
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mom2mpr
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| Posted: Jan 15 2008 at 11:33pm | IP Logged
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Thanks for your input, support and ideas. We are having some trying days but knowing others do at times also, makes it a little easier
Anne
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Topic: Making them do it...
