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Anne McD
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. . . . I could scream. Actually, I've done that already, and it just makes things worse.  We're two days into "school," and its not going well. My six year old is 1st grade, and he keeps getting into this "noodle spine" I doooonnnn'tttt wwwwwaaannntt tooo, attitude the minute something smells of work. The four and two year olds are simultaneously climbing all over me, demanding me to read to them, and fighting over the very air they are breathing. Not to mention that the four year old will break out in the highest pitch scream possible whenever wronged.
I'm using Right Start Math, but I hate the fact that I have to relearn math so I can teach it in the first place. Is there another math program that uses manipulatives that they can all play with while the oldest is learning something? Whatever I do with him, I have to do with the others at the same time-- I can't set them up with their own "work" first. I tried that, and they're back to us in five minutes. I'm sure they want my attention, and understand that, but what can I do/use with all three at the same time so that they are all happy, and the oldest is learning something? I can't reinvent the wheel, I don't want to "unschool," I don't have the time or patience to make my own manipulitves-- I'm so new to this that it has to be easy. I'm so tempted to quit, but I know I'm called to do this, at least for now. Why, I don't know, but I'm trying! 
I'm sorry this is so disjointed-- I'm just literally crawling out of my skin right now. I'm thinking I need to keep them all by my side at all times to keep them from tearing each other to bits, but I don't know what to do with them! Can anyone offer some advice?
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Anne
Wife to Jon
Mommy to Alex 9
James 8
Katie 6
William 3 1/2
Benedict Joseph 1
and baby on the way! 10/14
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msclavel
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Anne,
Offering up this terrible morning in my own home for you.
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Anne McD
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you are so sweet-- thank you! I'll send up an Ave for you, as well.
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Anne
Wife to Jon
Mommy to Alex 9
James 8
Katie 6
William 3 1/2
Benedict Joseph 1
and baby on the way! 10/14
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Rachel May
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Praying for you, Anne! I don't know Right Start, but we do love Math U See. The manipulatives are legoish, and everyone does love to play with them. We have a starter and completer set in a big Tupperware and usually that's enough for the older 5 to share.
My twins 1st grade year was defined by me being sick or lying on the floor semi comatose with 3 smaller ones whining and crying and wanting..., but lots of read alouds on a variety of topics (taking turns so eveyone had practice), Math U See Alpha, occasional phonics, poetry memorization and then jumping rope to the poems, and nature observation at local parks or in the neighborhood made it a great year even with needy littles. (Maybe? 1 hr seat work a day). That year I did my best at Real Learning, IMO, and when I look at the portfolios I turned in, I realize it was a GREAT year academically.
Anyway, be gentle on yourself. I hope things improve soon.
ETA: Sorry I started to ramble. My point was that I was able to get by with a small amount of formal academics so that we minimized the frustration of keeping everyone happy....
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Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
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Maryan
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Anne,
Hey, I'm doing the same act that you're doing at your house with very similar ages!!
Rachel has great advice! I'll just add that when we do math I set us all up in the same room with a little rug (Montessori style) - and everyone seems to feel busy that way. And... I wait until Luke is sleeping as well.
This may or may not work for you... but it's helped me.
__________________
Maryan
Mom to 6 boys & 1 girl: JP('01), B ('03), M('05), L('06), Ph ('08), M ('10), James born 5/1/12
A Lee in the Woudes
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doris
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Maths with sweets (candies)?! Seriously! You can do lots of games with counting out colours of M&Ms, making a chart, dividing, multiplying, whatever. You could at least save it as a bribe if everyone behaves for a set period of time...
Otherwise, how about investing in some additional manipulatives? We got some base ten blocks just today, and everyone was so excited about them -- building houses, doing Jenga etc... Also pattern blocks, Cuisenaire rods.
My younger dd was really disruptive when I started home ed with my elder daughter (ages 1.5 and 5 at the time). I found that if we were physically close it really helped. So I had elder daughter working on a low table, me sitting on the floor and playing with younger one. Much better than the two of us being on a dining room table and little one climbing on to the table, pulling things off, etc...
We use Singapore Maths which dd loves, but I've heard that Miquon Maths is good for boys -- just anecdotal, I don't know much more about it.
HTH, hang in there.
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Home educating in London, UK with dd (2000) ds (2002), dd (2004), ds (2008) and dd (2011).
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pixilated_momma
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Anne,
Is this happening just with math? Or for all the subjects?
If it's just math, then maybe it's just a matter of making math more hands-on through games and such stuff. You may want to check out: http://www.dr-mikes-math-games-for-kids.com/elementary-math- games.html.
I've a 7 year old, 5 year old and 21 month old, so what we do sometimes when the five year old wants to join in is to have them do stuff together.
For example, I put addition problems on a dry erase board and give them a bunch of legos to play with. They help each other do the addition (or subtraction) and take turns writing it on the board. (Meanwhile, the baby in his high chair plays with his own Legos.)
Also, we've played games of Trouble (the board game), but the kids have to pop the dice twice and add those numbers THEN move that many spaces. It's a way of sneaking math into it.
Sometimes, a child will do math computer games (just very basic straightforward math on the computer) for variety.
Another game that we do is: Free the Dinosaurs. (We have dinosaur magnets. LOL) I draw squares with lines in them --- ta-da, a cage --- then put the magnets in each "cage" and write an addition/subtraction problem beneath it. I tell the child that once they break the code (solve it) then the dinosaur will be freed. It's kind of goofy, but they LOVE it.
Other manipulatives we use:
* colored buttons
* plastic beads --- the cheap ones you can buy in bulk
* crayons (they've box a huge box of them)
They also use an empty egg carton (with the numbers 1-12 written in marker at the bottom) to help them do math. And also, they use a number line.
If it seems more like a game, then they can work together and have fun with it. My daughter (7) really has a hard time with math, but does well when we have it more hands-on like this. Her little brother has always wanted to join us, and he loves math. Now, at five, he is way ahead in his math skills just by sittng in and participating in his older sister's math play.
Hang in there! I'll pray for you. Please keep me in prayer, too.
Blessings,
Maria
___________________________
homeschooling mum to:
Essie, age 7
Miguel, age 5
Sebastian, 21 months
baby Rafael in heaven
and open to more!
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teachingmom
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I'm so sorry you are having a rough start to your year, Anne. I can't recall if this is your first year of schooling at home. You said he is in first grade. Did he attend school last year?
If it is your first year, your two younger ones are likely a bit shocked that Mommy is suddenly distracted with something that involves big brother, but not necessarily them. It also sounds like you are doing fine with trying to include the little ones and being attentive to their needs.
I have a few suggestions for math, since it sounds like that is your major concern. I second Maria's suggestions of games like Trouble and computer math games for your son to do independently. I love having them use pattern blocks and/or tangrams at your son's age. The younger ones could just play around with the pattern blocks if you got a huge bucket of them as we have. Many years ago now, Elizabeth taught me a chip counting game that works well with littles. I was just thinking about that one yesterday. I'll try to pm her and ask her to chime in about that.
I use Singapore Primary Math and the work required for 1st grade is really very minimal and doesn't take very long. It does not include manipulatives, however, but I supplement with ideas like those above.
If your two year old takes a nap, I'd plan on doing the majority of your schoolwork then, if possible.
And some moms may throw tomatoes at me for saying this, but I'm not above sending my 4yo to watch a video here and there or to play in the backyard with her friends who live on either side of us so I can work with the older ones with less distraction.
I'd just encourage you to not lose hope yet! I'm sure your younger children just need to adjust to the new rhythm of the homeschooling lifestyle.
Praying for your patience and for things to get better next week!
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~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
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Elizabeth
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I will chime in on chip trading but it will be later today (and I might need pictures--and  it's hilarious that I taught Irene anything mathematical because she's the math whiz and I'm still floundering after an entire childhood of homeschooling). Anne, do chime in and let us know if it's just math or if it's everything, because we may need to move this post.
I will say this, I've just boxed the last of my Right Start stuff up to send away to a new home. I couldn't manage the teacher involvement, both in the re-learning so I could teach and in the time it took to present. It's a perfect program theoretically, but a perfect program is only perfect if you can do it in your imperfect home with your imperfect children on little or no sleep.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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LisaR
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Anne, I have 4 very wiggly boys- yes, even at their "advanced" ages- and I had to sell all of my Right Start Math. None of us had the patience for it. We are happy with Math U See and Horizons Workbooks- the Horizons books are colorful, but not too overstimulating with good division between concepts on the page.
and, I don't like to "unschool" really either, but I had to let go very early on the picture I had in my mind of us all cozily and QUIETLY learning together at hours on end. We kind of live moment by moment here.
Your kids are young. Formal Math should not take long. Games, cooking , measuring etc. are good.
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
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Anne McD
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Thank you all so much for your help! Everything seemed to come to a head when I was doing math, so I'm not positive if it was "schooling" that was tough for them or if I was frustrated b/c the math program wasn't a good fit. Part of my problem is the "but I paid good money for this and I can't give up on it if it doesn't seem to be working" complex. However, the money isn't worth diddly if the program isn't working.
This is what I came to after some thougth and prayer yesterday (and all your prayers, too-- Thank you!! I know they helped!!), and reading all of your responses. First, I need to use manipulitives that all three of them can play with. Unfortunatly, the two year old doesn't nap, but if I'm focusing on the three simultaneously (while keeping the two and four year old seperated!), I think we'll be a bit happier. My problem is not knowing what to do with the mainipulatives. It helps me to have a list that says something like "child needs to know how to do the following things-- use legos or blocks or m&m's to do so." That brings me to the second thought-- Alex enjoys using workbooks. I had a few last year for language arts, and I picked one up for math yesterday from Spectrum. This should give me a good starting point in terms of what he needs to know, he'll work on the pages himself b/c I think he enjoys having a finshed product in front of him, and I'll have something concrete in front of me that says, "yes/no he doesn't understand this concept." Like his father, he has a great math mind, and is doing all sorts of math equations in his head, so I want to be careful to nurture this and not hinder it, either through boredem of doing math problems over and over, or not challenging him. I hear so many great ideas (tanagrams, hundreds board, cuisinart rods) but I don't have the vaugest idea what they teach or how to teach with them. Is there a good resource that gives examples of manipultitives and thier purpouse? (I should go back to my Real Learning book again!)
Irene, I "homeschooled" kindergarten last year, but it was way more laid back (almost nothing was "intentional" in terms of my teaching.) I want for us to go to our learning room in the mornings and focus on things like math and learning how to read. Maybe it threw the little ones off that we weren't playing in the basement the way they were used to? Its possible they just see me as playing with Alex and they want in on the fun. Oh, this is all making more sense to me now . . . .  I think all of this needs to be more of a group effort.
I have to run now, but I will think more on this -- I'm sorry if this should have gone to the Math forum in the first place, but as I am re-reading this, I'm thinking it was a "whole education" problem. Maybe that was just it-- the little ones see me paying attention to the oldest, and are feeling left out and clamor for my attention, and the program that I was using was so focused on the one child that I couldn't use it and pay attention to the others at the same time. Maybe whatever I'm doing, math, science, reading etc. just has to involve everyone right now. I was just so fed up with everything to start! Monday is a new day!
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Anne
Wife to Jon
Mommy to Alex 9
James 8
Katie 6
William 3 1/2
Benedict Joseph 1
and baby on the way! 10/14
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Kristie 4
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Maybe you need to be where your young ones are happy too?? For my 6yob last year I would often just grab the reading book or some math-it cards and join the legofest in he and his younger brother's room. We would kneel at a bed for anything that needed some writing... not perfect but it worked.
On the topic, how about Math-it?? Don't know if you have heard of it, but with 3 pieces of cardstock, a marker, and a few pieces of construction paper you could make the three boards which take you through all of your addition and multiplication facts (I could let you in on how it looks- it is so easy (and much cheaper to do your own). I bought it , because I hadn't seen it yet, but it is a little flimsy!).
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Kristie in Canada
Mom to 3 boys and one spunky princess!!
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jugglingpaynes
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I used Spectrum when my oldest was in the early grades. I recommend it. Being the obsessive frugal person that I am, I copied out everything so that I could reuse the book with my younger two. And I think it is best to lose the math book that isn't working. If you aren't enjoying it, neither will your child.
I never bought manipulatives. I found that my kids had so many collections of small toys (animals, dinosaurs, cars, craft beads, etc.) that we were able to play sorting and counting games with what we had. When I introduced place value, I did things like 10 small beads equals 1 large bead, 10 large beads equals a spool. It worked well for us. And so did shows like Cyberspace on PBS.
I noticed you said you were only days into your school year. From my experience, aided by wiser friends, I learned that it is better to ease into your school year. Start with only one or two subjects and then add on every few days or every week until you are up to your full schedule. Or you can decide to just spend 10 minutes a day on each subject for the first week and increase the time as necessary. Remember that schools devote 45 minutes to an hour per subject because they are dealing with large groups of children. Most of that time is spent organizing the class, checking homework and waiting for slower students to finish an exercise. If you can give your first grader at least ten minutes per subject, you're doing fine. Relax!
Peace and Laughter,
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Cristina
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mariB
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Great advice from everyone. We do what Christina suggests. We do just a few subjects to start out with. Yes, even with my 15 and 14 year olds! And then we gradually work in the rest of the subjects.
My eight year old has been very resistant to math, so I've had to get real creative while learning.
We've used games, manipulatives, and candies too! She likes to make up her own math problems to teach me. So if we are learning about the number 12, I ask her do you know what six plus six is? She'll then give me the answer and then I'll ask her if she can think of any other ways to say 12 like 4+4+4,2+2+2+2+2+2, etc. Sometimes I'll have her choose problems she wants to do off of a math page and then do some of the problems she skips with manipulatives.
I have been the most relaxed with her and she has surpassed our other children's skills when they were age 8.
Blessings,
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marib-Mother to 22ds,21ds,18ds,15dd,11dd and wife to an amazing man for 23 years
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vmalott
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Anne McD wrote:
| Part of my problem is the "but I paid good money for this and I can't give up on it if it doesn't seem to be working" complex. However, the money isn't worth diddly if the program isn't working. |
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So true. I think many of us struggle with this
"complex." That's why places like eBay and Cathswap, or even Amazon are great for getting rid of used materials that don't fit our families!
Anne McD wrote:
| Like his father, he has a great math mind, and is doing all sorts of math equations in his head, so I want to be careful to nurture this and not hinder it, either through boredem of doing math problems over and over, or not challenging him. |
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My ds11 is this way as well and I wound up doing much what you did early on: dropped the scripted or "mom has to learn how to teach this material this way" stuff and moved onto workbooks and drill sheets for him to complete on his own. Only when he begins to struggle do I present a concept one-on-one. Once he gets it, he's off on his own again. Actually, he just decided he doesn't want to work in the kitchen with the rest of us anymore--he gets too distracted and angry with the littles--so he works separately in our upstairs room.
Valerie
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Valerie
Mom to Julia ('94), John ('96), Lizzy ('98), Connor ('01), Drew ('02), Cate ('04), Aidan ('08) and three saints in heaven
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Karen T
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Kristie 4 wrote:
On the topic, how about Math-it?? Don't know if you have heard of it, but with 3 pieces of cardstock, a marker, and a few pieces of construction paper you could make the three boards which take you through all of your addition and multiplication facts (I could let you in on how it looks- it is so easy (and much cheaper to do your own). I bought it , because I hadn't seen it yet, but it is a little flimsy!).
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Kristie, I'd love to know what it looks like. I don't mind buying it, but if I could make it more sturdily I'd love to (and get it quicker, too!)
thanks,
Karen T
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cathhomeschool
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Anne, you've gotten some great advice here! How did today go?
You might try looking at FamFamily Math for your 1st grader and at Family Math for Young Children for the younger ones. These books contain ideas for using "homemade" manipulatives. If you are still looking for a "curriculum" other than the Spectrum math, I would look at either Singapore or Math-U-See. Both use manipulatives.
"How-to" books for manipulatives: If you plug in "cuisenaire rods" into amazon, you'll get a list of workbooks that show you how to teach different concepts using those manipulatives.
Tangrams: amazon has tangram puzzle books. I'd definitely start with the story Grandfather Tang's Story, and then let your son use homemade paper tangrams to make his own story/figures.
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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donnalynn
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I was initially frustrated with RightStart Math and put it away for a awhile - I took it out last Spring and we did much better -
We are using it again this year and things are going well with my seven year old - who's really 2nd grade but we are still using the B book.
This is what helps me use RightStart -
I try to look ahead several weeks and make any copies of the extra paper manipulatives I need (like the dot cards or any worksheets). I do this when I'm already out so it is not an extra trip (generally while my girls are singing in their local choir in town).
I read the lesson before bringing my son over - I don't worry about doing every single thing in the lesson - if I know something is just repetative or that he doesn't need - I don't use it. I might read it over the night before or even just quick in the morning - but what was throwing me was not having something right at my fingertips that came up in the text - if you can get in the habit of pulling the right manipulatives and having the right worksheet at your finger tips the lesson can go very smoothly and quickly.
I don't think of it as re-learning math but additional exploration with numbers. I think some of exercises that I'm not familiar are very interesting - and they give me the perspective of being a new student myself - this helps me to remember to be be patient. I am just enthralled with magic squares! I had never heard of them before (these are what we started out with in level Ewith an older daughter). This was part of my initial frustration but by changing my attitude to one of genuine interest has helped all the children become interested in math.
Over the years I have found it is easier to help the little ones feel included than to try to set them up with something else somewhere else - so for math I have all my math manipulatives in a large basket so I will give my younger son the colorful tiles to work with right near us or the deck of cards to play matching - or I will ask him simpler questions as we go along (number recognition, simple addition, shapes etc...).
Often if a younger child feels included but the work is really above their level, they will wander off to find something else - but if they feel excluded from the get-go that just seems to magnify clingy, crawl-all-over-Mama- and-whine-behaviour. It is a challenge in these younger years! I try to not get too caught up with strict time tables or lesson length - it will work out - eventually (like years sometimes!)
To remedy the noodle spine - try setting everything up without him - arrange the manilpulatives even start to work with them without actually inviting him - he may come over out of curiousity. I would try to pinpoint what he thinks is the "work" - usually it's not everything but maybe it's the actual writing, or the oral work, or some element that does not suit his learning style - I wouldn't totally leave an aspect out but if you can develop a sensitivity to what he doesn't like you can lessen the amount or break it down so it is more doable. And give more of what he does enjoy.
I do think RightStart is a program that encourages real mathematical thinking - but it did take me some time to get used to it. I also think it is very important to go at your own pace.
Looks like you've already discovered most of what I have said but my situation was similar last year - hope today goes better for you!
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donnalynn
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rashfordmom
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I just want to chime in with the, "This too shall pass" mantra. I battled the noodle spine thing with my oldest ds for two years and when we started out 2nd grade work this year he was a completely different child. He practically jumped to do his "work" everyday. Now six weeks into the year and it's still going pretty well, at least when I have my act together.
I haven't been doing this for such a long time but I think a lot of our problems in the past were related to maturity. So, the moral of this message: Persevere (and pray  )
Blessings,
Amanda
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Anne McD
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Things are looking a little better. If nothing else, I'm far less stressed about Math now. I picked up some cuisinare rods and unifix cubes and we've been having fun exploring them for the past couple of days. Also, he's done a few pages of the workbook with much success, and it is giving me great direction as to what to teach him next (eg: break out the change and talk money).
Thank you again for all your suggestions and encouragement. I'm going through all the math book suggestions you have made, and keeping everything in mind. THANK YOU!!!
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Anne
Wife to Jon
Mommy to Alex 9
James 8
Katie 6
William 3 1/2
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and baby on the way! 10/14
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: I’m so frustrated . . .
