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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: April 22 2007 at 10:23am | IP Logged
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I have begun writing a blog piece about college pros and cons several, several times and never finished any of them. I hope to...one day. In the meantime, I thought we could all share our thoughts and experiences here. I have had exposure and experience to both realms of education...college and non-college.
I happen to have two boys who are not college material. Not that they can't be college material. They are both intelligent and capable if they set their minds to it, and I can already see the talents God has given each one.
Then I have girls who are everything the academic world looks for and admires. My oldest dd will graduate high school with honors and proceed to college. Her test scores are high and she has a 4.0 GPA.
Then there is my son. A hard-worker and one willing to roll-up his sleeves and work hard. He'll make it in life. I know he will. College degree or not. His focus is trade school at the moment because that is making use of the gifts God has given him.
In my own family, I am the one with the college degree and have had little use for it. Everything I've learned and used has not been from my college experience.
Like all disclaimer's, I am not saying let's do away with high-learning. It has it's place and it's a good thing. I'm very proud of my oldest dd. Really. I'm eager for her and it comes near the point of gloating and we support her and show our pride in her.
But her accomplishments do not take away our pride and gloating in our sons and their accomplishmeents and talents. Often, I think it is better to train-up loving, caring children than mere educated creatures. But, let's face it, education empowers us, it completes us, it lifts us up.
Still, I believe there is more than one way to gain that education. If Real Learning is found beyond the walls of a classroom, then certainly it is successful beyond the walls of a university. I believe the world is crying out for education beyond the classroom, beyond the colleges and universities. This is the 21st century and homeschoolers have broken ground for this new cognition.
My dd and I have been reading Helen Keller's "Story of My Life" and, if you read about her college experience, even she realized this new concept. Her whole experience is a life in Real Learning and, for it to teach a deaf/blind child about the world around her and how to function in it, then certainly it will work for our children. (I have a whole post I want to do on this but no time now. I will state that Helen Keller did have "classroom" learning involved in her education, just like some of us allow our children to take classes at the library, dance studio, tutoring service, leisure learning at the university, music class, etc. There is a time and place to seek the hand of someone more qualified and there is nothing wrong with it.)
I was guided to these educational posts by Elena Maria Vidal and wanted to share them here for more reference.
Though I'm speaking of all our children, we'll go with "A Lady's Education" because most of us are ladies and will share our own personal experience (though I hope the men will perhaps share their experience as well). 
Coffee Wife wrote:
"Let us all clear the thorns and the vines away from the path so that it becomes obvious to all women that there is another way to live life to the fullest - a way that does not require superiority or inferiority of any woman. Let us become Ladies and work at our Lady's Education for our entire lives regardless of what our culture says. Let us, if we so desire, stay home or enter careers without feeling guilty. Let us go to college or be self-educated without feeling as if we are doing something wrong. Let us remain in our father's house until we marry or go live in apartments without apologizing to anyone."
Her posts, worth our time for fodder, are:
Posting from experience
The college myth
The moral issues I have with college/universities
What does it mean to be a lady?
A Lady's Education Part I
A Lady's Education Part II
A Lady's Education Part III
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: April 22 2007 at 3:56pm | IP Logged
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Cay, I'm so glad you started this. I have several pages of random, disjointed thoughts about this topic. I have thought about it so much over the past decade.
I look forward to talking about this, and hearing from others.
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Suzanne in ID
Wife to Pete
Mom of 7 (Girls - 14, 12, 11, 9, 7 and Boys - 4, 1)
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Bridget
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| Posted: April 22 2007 at 5:13pm | IP Logged
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I haven't read through all the links, but it's certainly worth noting that a lady furthering her education is practically built into home educating her children.
I've never set foot in a college class and my school years were abysmal as far as formal learning goes. Both in public and Catholic school. (It probably shows in my writing.  )
When I graduated high school, i went right to work because I wanted a car and figured I would marry soon and stay home with my children. I was 27 before i finally married.
For years it embarrassed me and was a cross that I didn't have a college education in social settings. Now that I have some home educating years under my belt and am getting to be a little older and wiser, I realize that many college educated people had a very limited education.
I'll never be an intellectual giant but maybe I'm not as far behind all the college grads as I used to think.
It's thrilling to know that I could get a marvelous lady's education at home along with my daughters.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
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ALmom
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| Posted: April 22 2007 at 5:20pm | IP Logged
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Cay, I just read the linked articles. From your introductory sentence, it looks like you have questions about college - the wisdom of it for our daughters seems to be your leaning. However, you obviously are not outright opposed to girls going to college, since that is where your dd is headed. You also seem to want some reflection on the assumptions of the need of a college education. This subject is one that we have pondered for some time and since you seem to ask for personal ponderings - here goes.
I am college educated. I could have been a professional student - I loved it. I wanted to take everything and double majored in math and history with as many political science courses as I could cram into my schedule. I took 5 years of German in school (1 year in 8th, the rest in high school), loved to write, read and maintained a diary. Those things do not end simply because I decided not to pursue graduate school. (I had a very high college GPA from a Jesuit institution so that could have been a reality if I had wanted to pursue the history of technology - an up and coming area of study where they needed someone with at least some technical background. I knew that wasn't for me - and I didn't want the pressure. Besides, I had 4 siblings behind me and needed to help earn some funding for them since my parents had just helped me with schooling. I did not see it as right to continue to ask them to help foot the bill - and even if I could get teaching assitanceships and other scholarships there were bound to be uncovered costs. I've never regretted this decision. Sometimes I have regretted particular course selections because I took courses willy, nilly according to whatever struck my fancy and met my degree requirements. (I was also taking courses in secondary education). There was not a lot of long range planning according to what my own assumptions and dreams really were - and no guidance about determining that with prayer.
All that I have said so far leaves out the one thing I wish I had thought through before college - exactly what was I there for and what were my goals. From the time I was a little bitty girl, I had always dreamed of marriage and a large family. But as you work through the system, that isn't even on the radar scope. I never really thought deeply about that goal, it was just somewhere in the background with no idea of what I might need to know for that scenario. Now, I probably still should have gone to college but it should have been with a clearer idea as to its purpose for me - and with less of the mindless memorize, repeat and get good grades. I also should have had a clear idea of the assumptions behind institutional learning and recognized a need to carve learning for myself outside of the institutional setting.
I went to college, not with any real discernment about what I was called to do or any real look at the particular temptations associated with that path. The assumptions was somewhat like the links implied - if you are "smart", you take advanced courses in high school, you get good ACT/SAT tests and you earn scholarships. No one ever even considered any other option - and anyone not following this path was assumed to be a "problem" kid. Now I'm not saying I consciously thought all these things - they were just the cultural assumptions that were underneath things - hidden and would have shocked me had I really been aware of them. It also never occured to me that assumptions were being made that certain work (sewing, etc. were simply unimportant hobbies for some people) and that a lot of these things were based on the undeclared assumption that educated women don't stay at home with their children, they get jobs. I always planned on being home with my children, so I was not aware of how much the set up of what was or was not assumed to be important, was based on assumptions that did not agree with my own goals.
The other assumption associated with this was that math and science courses were the ticket to the good life which involved earning a good living. Now I knew I was in college for a broader education and not just to get a good job. I think my interests were just too broad reaching to limit myself to math/science field - plus I wasn't particularly intrigued or interested in science. I also never considered money making potential all that important as I was always a frugal person, never really had need of much (except books and paper) and wanted to be at home with children one day. However, since I wasn't aware of the underlying differences in assumptions, I simply made the good grades to get labeled as smart and went ahead and added math to my major to reassure my dad that the investment in the college education was worth it. I didn't mind the math, I found it to be a fun mind/logic/strategic game so that was fine. It never even occured to anyone to teach skills like cooking, cleaning, sewing, flower arranging - even art and music were given very prefunctory lip service (my sole exposure to beautiful art (other than the natural world) was one long assembly with the entire school body looking at art being flashed about one painting a second on the big screen, while we were supposed to write down dominant color. I honestly didn't even know exactly what was meant by that. It obviously wasn't anything important to the powers that made decisions as we were never even shown our papers, nor was any effort made to correct any errors we certainly had made. In any case, since I hadn't done much thinking on my own about the match between my goals and what the college provided, it never occured to me to pursue other avenues to learn these skills or even to think about what skills I'd need for my dream life.
Now looking back - and in trying to guide our teens (you have lots more experience here than I do, with only one actually graduated from high school), these are some things I want my children to think about:
College is not the only path to success, happiness, learning or fulfillment. We make sure our children know that we do not assume they are going to college.
Pray and discern where God is leading you, and what skills you need to develop for that task.
If a young man thinks he is called to marriage, he certainly must consider the earning potential of his path as he will need to adequately provide for his wife and children. But we do talk about worldly and non-worldly standards. Being wealthy is not the goal.
If a young woman thinks she is called to marriage, it behooves her to gain some skill in cooking, cleaning, making a home beautiful, budgeting, sewing, etc. prior to being in the situation where you are trying to juggle doing a good job with this and learning how to do it all at the same time. We all tend to like what we do well and it is easier to find joy in domestic arts if they are learned while you are young. We, as parents, try to consciously emphasis some of this - and we do make sure our daughters learn these arts to some degree of success and enjoyment while they are still young. This, for me, has involved hiring someone to come in and teach sewing as I cannot do it and do not have the time currently to gain enough proficiency to help them find answers to their questions. Surrounding our children with beauty - and exposing them to it early and often, seems to help them naturally move in this direction.
I also remember that I am not in charge of deciding their future and am simply a guide in finding the path God has called them to. I cannot stand in their way. (This was a bit tougher for us in our region as there is often some pretty strong opinion among homeschoolers here that dd should never go to college) However, I do need to remain a parent and honestly share insights with them. So for instance, we ask questions about why the choice, what vision they see, etc. I think our college dd has much better sense of what she is doing and why then I ever did.
I also am honest about the grade pressure thing. It is a temptation to pride, to thinking you are smart because that is what the world will say. What we all really need is the Gift of the Holy Spirit - wisdom.
I also continue to encourage learning in weaker areas and making connections between all kinds of learning. Learning is life long and does not cease. I want my children to do whatever they do to the best of their ability all for the greater glory of God (and hopefully this is what we all strive for in my home, however imperfectly and no matter how many times we fall into the traps of our culture). I've come to the conclusion that God has given the gifts and there is an obligation to develop them. Whether this involves college or not is a matter of prudential judgement and best made by the child at the time with the ongoing guidance and advice of others, particularly mom and dad. We pray for God to open and close doors, but will not advise any child go into debt over a college education.
We do speak frankly to any children (so far only 1) planning on college as there are safety issues, excessive drinking and partying, a lot of assumptions about relationships that are false (and often lack of awareness of dangers to modesty, chastity, etc. involved in a lot of typical habits (visitation priviledges). We have also spoken about the temptations to become so focused on career that you forget the great calling of wife and mother and that you have to be extra careful to guard against this in a college environment - to consciuosly remain a modest, young woman, the essentials of Sacraments, prayer, discernment in the midst of a pagan celebration. We also discuss integrity and grade pressures. There are professors with agendas that will downgrade for politically incorrect opinions. There may be a time when you must either be false or get a bad grade. That is the martyrdom that our college educated students may face. We also have seen great ingenuity in answering honestly and yet avoiding the bad grade - "According to the text ...." There are books they may be asked to read that are downright pornographic - and we simply cannot read these things. It is extremely important to get a network going of other Christian students who can give you a heads up so you avoid these classes and/or teachers. They must be in constant prayer to have the courage and fortitude to resist and to not be frightened by the cost. They also have to be clear about relationship issues. It is so easy for someone to think a friendly comment is a "I want to date you" hint which on college campuses seems to imply a lot more than simply getting to know a person's interests and values. Have your dd think through how she will handle various scenarios long before she arrives on campus while she has time to think through how to maintain her standards, be polite and kind and considerate of the others feelings but also give a clear message.
Anyways, this is a long winded way of saying, discuss the potential pitfalls of the path they are leaning towards and help them discern.
I know if our boys said they were not going to college, we wouldn't assume it was a bad thing, but we would want to make sure they had thought through how to provide. In our particular location, there are very, very few jobs for non-degreed folks (it is all aerospace and high tech). However, we have also noticed that engineers hit a dead end if they don't want to move into management but want to stay more hands on - so this would also be something to point out. We discussed some of the income instabilities of music with dd. It is brutally competitive and she cannot go in blind to this reality either.
I guess the bottom line is that we discuss whatever plus and negative points our experience and knowledge and circumstances allow us to see. We always pray for guidance.
As far as the articles points on continuing our education at home, I think everyone here on this board does that. I find that necessity is my biggest teacher. When I couldn't find modest clothing for my girls, I overcame my horrid fear of sewing and did manage to make some jumpers (no buttons, zippers - but they served to get us by until the dd could sew). I learned to cook when I was married - and though it was a frustratingly slow process of burning and retrying and asking and retrying, I am tolerable at it. I just learned how to make bean soup - it is a cheaper source of protein but I never could get it right before (ie edible). I love academics, but sometimes have to curb this to spend time playing with the littles. Still, we are building a real home learning environment and I plan to have my 2nd dd teach me Latin as soon as the youngest 2 are ready for this - we'll learn together. I've learned more science by necessity - helping dc find answers to questions, then I ever did even in my college science classes. I like making connections from one thing to another and we have very free wheeling conversations at home.
This message board is full of articulate and very wise women. I learn and ponder over posts frequently - and by necessity am learning(sometimes slowly) to curb my instinct to stay in the theoretical discussing ideas on the message board and instead listen to exactly what God is calling me to do at the moment - which is usually to cook supper, answer a child's question, or spend some time pondering with my dh. But this whole new ah hah reminds me that all kinds of learning go on all the time, if we are humble enough to recognize the prodding of God.
My handwriting is horrid - don't know if there is any hope there, but I do plan on attempting to do some of the therapies that NACD recommends for my nephew for myself and our dc to see if we can develop a bit more coordination. The key really is not basing our worth on what we can do or learn. God generally puts before us what we should be learning.
Now, I'd better stop blabbing and go see what my dh needs - also hope this is not too longwinded or confusing as I've no time to reread and make a final draft.
Janet
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: April 22 2007 at 8:46pm | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
| Cay, I just read the linked articles. From your introductory sentence, it looks like you have questions about college - the wisdom of it for our daughters seems to be your leaning. However, you obviously are not outright opposed to girls going to college, since that is where your dd is headed. You also seem to want some reflection on the assumptions of the need of a college education. This subject is one that we have pondered for some time and since you seem to ask for personal ponderings - here goes. |
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Janet, I'm so glad you shared. Your post was marvelous!
My post could have also been titled "College vs. non-College". I wasn't sure which direction to go so I invite all thoughts...about college in general or higher education for our little ladies.
And you read me right. I am not outright opposed to girls going to college (and even pursuing a career until married), but I do hope my girls (and daughter-in-laws) choose wifery and motherhood over any career choice.
This stems from my first year at college in a Speech class. There was a middle-age lady there raising three young children. She had returned to college after her dh died and she found herself the lone provider for her family of four. I remember the look on her face when she told us this information. Of course, I was young and fresh out of high school and had been fed that you couldn't do anything without a college degree.
If I only knew what I know today...
And I have to add that even though I don't discourage college for girls, I don't think what they learn there is of much benefit to their mind, their soul, or their heart. I've heard and seen too many bad things.
That said, after Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, most of our universities and community colleges were shut down. I know college students who were meeting their classes and teachers at the libraries and bookstores (any place they could find to meet) periodically and, for the most part, doing their work load via computerized classes. I wished it would have remained this way for my children.
ALmom wrote:
| College is not the only path to success, happiness, learning or fulfillment. |
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Excellent, Janet. 
ALmom wrote:
Pray and discern where God is leading you, and what skills you need to develop for that task.
I also remember that I am not in charge of deciding their future and am simply a guide in finding the path God has called them to. I cannot stand in their way. |
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Wise words, Janet.
Again, thanks for writing your thoughts.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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chicken lady
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| Posted: April 22 2007 at 9:48pm | IP Logged
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Great thread Cay, one I have many thoughts on, I think for now I will "listen". I will say you and Janet have many great and valid points.(As does Bridget )
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: April 22 2007 at 9:48pm | IP Logged
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Two more really good posts from Coffee Wife concerning a Lady's Education:
Being a Stay-at-Home Wife and Mother is NOT a Wasted Life!
Living a Hidden Life
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: April 22 2007 at 9:50pm | IP Logged
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chicken lady wrote:
| Great thread Cay, one I have many thoughts on, I think for now I will "listen". |
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We were posting at the same time.
I want to hear those "random, disjointed thoughts" from you and Suzanne. Suddenly my thoughts on being "little and hidden" are coming together and I'm listening...carefully...
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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Celeste
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| Posted: April 22 2007 at 10:45pm | IP Logged
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No, college isn't necessary for everyone, and many people who have never gone to college can think better than those who have; but I'm going to jump in here with a loud voice in support of college, even and especially for ladies!
I double majored in philosophy and English literature, with almost enough theology to get a minor. I didn't study for a career, I studied for the love of wisdom, to seek truth, to sharpen my mind by striking it against the minds and wits of others. It was a fabulous, luxurious time; a time to swim in great books and thoughts, to reflect on them, pray about them, discuss them with others, to learn the truth and write it on my heart. I draw on that reservoir every day.
I don't have that kind of time any more. Sure, I can read, but how often can I get together with other seekers-of-the-truth and talk and debate and challenge and be challenged--uninterrupted? (Yes, kids sharpen us, but it's not the same as peer or professor sharpening.) Not like college days, when sleep was optional, and functioning on no sleep still possible!
Okay, I didn't go to college right out of high school--I worked for a few years--so I was older and "wiser." And I was paying for most of it, so I took it seriously. And I went to a great college--Franciscan Univ.--with professors (and their spouses) who could truly be mentors. Some of them I count among my friends today. The dorm experience was not the horror that it is on most college campuses. (We had the Blessed Sacrament in every dorm, as well as other places--pretty much couldn't go anywhere without running into Jesus.) Even so, I wouldn't discount my experience.
I think we moms need to have the best-informed, sharpest minds we can. After all, we're the support of our husbands, and the primary educators of our children. College is absolutely not the only way to be informed, but don't disregard it as merely a way to get on a career track.
Nothing unladylike about our intellects! And we have an obligation to form them to the fullest extent possible, in the place and by the method God intends us to form them, whatever it may be.
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Celeste
Mother of five. Daughters.
Perchik: Do you have children?
Tevye: I have five daughters.
P: Five?
T: Daughters.
P: Girls should learn, too. Girls are people!
Student: A radical!
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: April 22 2007 at 11:39pm | IP Logged
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Just a thought on the "need" for college..
It seems to me that the demand for college degrees in the marketplace rather coincided with the lowering of standards in the high schools.. lower the bar because everyone needed that high school diploma and the employers raised it again by demanding a college degree..
but you have to wonder.. are the college graduates really learning that much more than high school graduates used to.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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Bridget
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 6:45am | IP Logged
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Deviating away from the college thoughts, I was thinking how similar the posts on a Lady's Education are to real learning. We have the luxury of learning about areas that interest us.
I am learning Latin with my kids because of my love for the traditions of the Church. They like it more for their love of words.
Over the years, I have learned (am learning) not just how to cook, but how to nourish my family. How to frugally throw together a meal from leftovers or make something quickly because we have to get out the door. I have also learned how to get cookbooks from the library and spend hours preparing a foreign cuisine for the joy of it.
Is that what the author means by a Lady's education? It's not heavy in intellect but pertinent to my station in life.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 7:44am | IP Logged
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Celeste wrote:
I think we moms need to have the best-informed, sharpest minds we can. After all, we're the support of our husbands, and the primary educators of our children. College is absolutely not the only way to be informed, but don't disregard it as merely a way to get on a career track.
Nothing unladylike about our intellects! And we have an obligation to form them to the fullest extent possible, in the place and by the method God intends us to form them, whatever it may be.
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Well said, Celeste. Well said.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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Bridget
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 8:37am | IP Logged
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Cay Gibson wrote:
| Suddenly my thoughts on being "little and hidden" are coming together and I'm listening...carefully... |
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Cay, will you share what your thoughts are and how little and hidden is connected to a lady's education?
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Tina P.
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 12:11pm | IP Logged
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Confession time. I *did* go to college with a career-track mind. Of course, I never even dreamed of being married and I *had* to support myself ... so I thought. And I even  eschewed a teaching degree in favor of writing because there was more money in technical writing, the only kind of writing that bored me to no end. And ironically, now I teach for nothing but the sheer pleasure of lighting my children's minds on fire. 
I think that the college *I* attended (not saying that all colleges do this) succeeded in making me more worldly. It made me more wary of all men because one of my professors accosted every girl in his class claiming that he was just divorced and having a hard time getting over it. My Irish Lit. professor reeked of hard liquor. How could I respect a man who slurred his speech during class and whose final exam was a trip to the nearest gasthaus?
And I begged my parents to send me to a small, private, all-girl college in Minnesota (St. Benedict). We couldn't afford it, even with scholarships and grants and me working several jobs just to pay for the local college that I attended.
On the positive side, I *do* think I grew up (not just in worldly ways). I learned to manage my time and money well. I learned just how much pressure I could handle. And I learned a little bit about the subjects I took classes in. 
My husband left his family as soon as ever he could and joined the military. It took him several years to earn a college degree while working. He is gung ho for *all* of our kids to earn their degrees. He is looking at it purely from a success-in-the-work-place angle. He did not make a great deal of money in his workplace until he finished that degree. And we do have more boys than girls, so maybe that's part of his slant, as well.
I am sending those of my children who are interested in higher learning to college. They'll have to work for it, as Celeste and I did (it makes one so much more responsible, I think, to put so much money into college). But I will definitely listen when one of them has his or her heart set on a college instead of brushing them off saying, "We can't afford it." I will sit with them and fill out paperwork 'til it comes out of our ears if they want that particular college for the right reasons.
Oh, and Bridget, you write beautifully.
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Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
Mary's Muse
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 12:52pm | IP Logged
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Bridget wrote:
Cay, will you share what your thoughts are and how little and hidden is connected to a lady's education? |
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Oh, dear, I have to transmit all these jumbled thoughts of mine into print? 
Well, real simple and refined, this post by Coffee Wife (Living a Hidden Life) is excellent and, if you read it, it develops my thought process better than I can. I really hope I can transmit to my dds that a woman's work in the home is sacred and is done out of love and not from seeking recognition or approval from the outside world.
Our learning, as ladies in the home, is valuable because it is our way of improving ourselves, using the brain and talent God gave us, and being able to deliver the goods back to Him for His honor and glory. "Well done, good and faithful servant."
Like Coffee Wife, I also:
"...knew about these things because I read her (St. Therese) book years ago. But it has taken many years of thinking about the hidden life and growing closer to God for me to have my ah-hah moment. And now I have been given the great grace of not only understanding the hidden life - but to actually want to live it."
I went to my god-son's b-day party this past Saturday. This side of the family has a nurse and a pharmacist, two teachers, etc. (you get the idea). Everything is about college degrees and money.
(Of course, when it comes to the children, I've been asked to be the godmother to all of them ...to my delight, of course...so I guess they would say, about me, that I'm all about religion and children. Suits me.)
As they all talk about their jobs and careers and money , I pretty much sit there "little and hidden". What I do is insignificant to them. In their eyes I have too many children, am not using my college degree, and am burying my talents at home. They look at work outside the home as contributing to society and making it a better place. They feel it is selfish to stay at home and focus only on one's family.
THey fret over my god-children being in school and daycare from 6 AM-6 PM, but they shrug and say, "That's real life. It'll make them a stronger person." I've even been told that, because children know what they live, that, for them, being able to sleep in and having a nice family homelife with Mommy baking cookies is something they will only know through storybooks...implying that, for my god-children, it will not be "real" but merely an illusion from a storybook. They don't feel my lifestyle prepares children for the "real world" outside the home.
I'm getting off track here.
I am repeatedly...repeatedly...struck by how my insights and beliefs are so out-of-touch with the "modern world."
From my family's background, you can see a little of where I'm coming from, but, Bridget, Coffee Wife's "Living a Hidden Life" and her other links say exactly what I'm rambling about here. Her posts put all my jumbled thoughts into some understandable order.
__________________
Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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Tina P.
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 1:45pm | IP Logged
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Cay Gibson wrote:
THey fret over my god-children being in school and daycare from 6 AM-6 PM, but they shrug and say, "That's real life. It'll make them a stronger person." ... it will not be "real" but merely an illusion from a storybook. They don't feel my lifestyle prepares children for the "real world" outside the home.
I am repeatedly...repeatedly...struck by how my insights and beliefs are so out-of-touch with the "modern world." |
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I am trying to woo a family with small children to homeschool. She's an occupational therapist. He teaches music at the local public school. They don't want to give up the money ~ even suggesting that they would have to sell their home to make ends meet ~ to try homeschooling. They put $350 into a Lutheran kindergarten program rather than teach their children the true faith at home. She seems to think that since she survived school in an 80% Mormon area where public schools are *reall* Mormon schools, so should her daughters. She says that those experiences she had in school made her stronger. She didn't meantion anything about s*x in schools and on buses, drugs, homos*xual behaviors, guns and knives ... am I missing anything? Apparently Cay, I'm as out of touch as you are!
And as regards Coffee Lady's post, I am weak in that, though I don't necessarily expect praise for a stellar cleaning job, I do *not* like it when my husband comes home after we worked hard on the house and picks up on those things we *didn't* manage to do.  It hurts us all to disappoint him, but sometimes I think he expects too much!
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Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
Mary's Muse
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amyable
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 2:25pm | IP Logged
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I finally got a few minutes to read the linked posts - and like Cay I agree that Coffee Wife is saying many of the things I would say if I could articulate it better!
I keep writing and deleting this post. I think it is hitting a raw nerve and I'm having trouble expressing myself.
It boils down to the fact that I wish I never went to college and instead went to some kind of "mommy training school"
Besides the horribly sinful things I fell into in college, it did nothing to train me for my life now, and only has fueled the fire of my discontent at home. When feeling down it is Oh so easy to fall into the trap of thinking, "I could BE somebody, I could get a job, I could bring home money too!" It also skews the balance of power in our home (in a bad way).
My parents and others are big on "Well, what if something happens to your husband? Shouldn't you have something to fall back on?" What a horrible focus for one's life! My *goal* in life should not be "What should I do if my dh dies or is incapacitated?" No one ever talked about what I felt God calling me to do - although I tried to pick a degree that would be God honoring and helpful (speech therapy), I don't think it was "God's Best" for me.
It really bothers me how much time and money ($$$$$) was wasted for a degree that is pretty useless - although I do use my collge skills and knowledge in homeschooling my children - I could have gained that knowledge on my own, or much more cheaply, and without the expense of my soul!! 
I have one dd who is probably not college material (hates schoolwork, struggles) and so far probably two others who are the Perpetual Straight A Student type. I know dh wants college for them. I'm OK with that if God is calling them to do that, but I want them to go in with as much wisdom from my experiences as possible. I don't want them to waste the first years of their children's childhood angry that they are "wasting their life, totally bored" staying home.
Of course there is the flip side - of never getting a degree and always wishing you had.
Maybe I should have gone to Contentment College.
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of 
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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extremeknitter
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 3:26pm | IP Logged
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What a great thread!
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blessings and peace,
~knitter
mom to 6 terrific kids (ages 21 down to 1) and 10 little saints
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amyable
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 3:42pm | IP Logged
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I just went back to Coffee Wife's site to read more, and in one of her more recent posts she quotes Holly Pierlot's MROL -
Quote:
| I had to aply all of me to the task and mission I was called to be and do, not haphazardly, but fully, methodically, completely, Jesus was asking for the dedication of my entire self to my vocation." (pg. 11) |
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I think what it all must boil down to for my children is vocation discernment BEFORE running off to college. Had my parents and I had an understanding of vocation before I left home, I think I could have gone off to college (see, I'm not against it! LOL ) with the proper goals in mind.
So, to paraphrase my favorite realtor (my late FIL), "Vocation, vocation, vocation!" I want to equip my children for their calling, not help them grow obstacles they have to plow through afterwards.
To "find oneself" in college seems to be dangerous business (a very few colleges excepted).
__________________
Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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Bookswithtea
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I'm really enjoying this thread. I married into a family of men who work with their hands and proudly support their wives and children. None of them regret not going to college. They've had hard times and good times, financially, but I think that happens to families no matter how educated the bread winner is. I come from a family where college degrees are not options, and the extended family (all devout Christians) love to brag on the academic successes of the cousins/grandchildren.
I feel like I have a foot in both worlds.
I have a son whose primary goal right now is to find a career that does not require college. He hates the mere idea of it. I'm ok with that, but I am still insisting on a college prep track...as in, "Yes, dear, you can be a garbage man, but you will be a garbage man who has read Shakespeare!" The rest of my children are too young to even be thinking about college.
I graduated from the UC system. I can honestly say that I don't think it made me a better person. I didn't fall into horrible sin (I met the Lord in college), but I was exposed to lots of ideas that would have been better left alone, and I nearly lost my head to radical feminism. When I think of all that money and how it could have been spent more wisely, I feel  .
I sometimes wish I had learned to cut hair instead...infinitely more practical. I could make some money on the side, bless a mommy who can't get out of the house, AND it would be easier to find a job if something horrible did happen than it would be for me to teach now (my major).
I have concerns about the college environment. Its no more 'the real world' than public school, imho. Where else are you exposed to all sorts of weird ideas, 24/7, while you sleep in dorms with people who aren't your family (and may not even be your friends) and don't have the support of your family and your longtime friends to ground you?
I remember being shocked when I finally graduated and got my feet back in the real world. It was a huge debriefing process for me to realize that most people get up, shower, work hard, eat dinner and go to sleep without ever considering the larger philosophical questions of life...and this is normal.
The college environment is not normal. At this point, I have a hard time even considering a college for my children that is not 100% faithful to the Magisterium. I tend to think more in terms of calling than career. If the child has a calling that requires a college degree, then that's one thing. But if not, then I don't see 4 yr college as the necessary next step after graduation (I'm excluding trade schools from this).
I feel like a freak sometimes, even among hs moms, for thinking things like this. A dear hs mom friend of mine has taught all her children that master's degrees are the minimum for their family. I don't often voice these thoughts because I fear how they will be perceived.
Thanks for starting this thread, Cay.
__________________
Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: A Lady's Education
