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MichelleM
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I've been putting off delving into the subject of Intelligent Design vs. Creationism (Young Earth vs. Old Earth) vs. Darwinism for quite sometime but with our vacation to Utah this summer (which is generating a study of Dinosaurs, Fossils, & Geology) it seems I no longer can remain blissfully ignorant. 
I have a dear Protestant friend who is a rocket scientist and staunch Young Earth Creationist who first planted the seed that this was even an issue several years ago, before I converted to the Catholic Faith. He lent us a video that made me at least question if what the museums and textbooks were holding out as truth, really was true.
So up to this point, I've always told the children that we know God created the earth & all the creatures, we really don't know how old the earth is, we don't really know what happened to dinosaurs but we do know that Adam & Eve were persons not apes & were created in the image & likeness of God, that we have no reason to believe that the Great Flood & tale of Noah is only myth and so on and so forth.
I'm hoping someone else has studied and wrestled with these issues and can recommend some book titles that are easy reads & give an overview of the issues. (I checked out Darwin's Black Box from the library and couldn't get past the first few pages! I'm definitely not a scientist and do not have a passion for this subject matter!  )
I'm also interested in reading any Church Documents on the subject if there are any and any book suggestions for children would be appreciated as well.
I have a feeling I may be providing the children the same answers I always have after researching this subject more, but hopefully I'll be more formed in my beliefs concerning the matter especially if those beliefs differ from the scientists we come in contact with this summer.
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cathhomeschool
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Michelle,
I'm sorry that I can't answer your questions, as this is an area that I'm not read up on either, but I can link you to a thread that has discussed this in the past: Dinosaurs and creation.
I'm moving this thread to "The Great Outdoors" where it might get more response.
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Check out the Unity of Truth blog. Unity of TruthIt has some excellent links to Catholic teachings on science and evolution. You may be surprised to find that our Church, unlike many protestant churches, does not preclude belief in evolution. It simply maintains that we must believe that each human SOUL is a special creation of God, from conception. The rest is up to us to discover.
Happy reading.
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MichelleM
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lapazfarm wrote:
Check out the Unity of Truth blog. Unity of TruthIt has some excellent links to Catholic teachings on science and evolution.
Happy reading. |
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Thanks for the link. I've already found a wonderful article that has really helped me to understand the issues and Church teaching much better. It's a quick & easy read. Just what I need!
Well, I'm off to do more reading!
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aussieannie
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Michelle, this is a subject dear to my heart and so I will mention a few of the easy to read, easy to understand, colourful illustrated/photographed books that I use with my children regularly. These are not Catholic - they sometimes like to briefly mention at the end of each book about the connection between the true account of Genesis and Original sin and our salvation, I usually don't read it if it is there not because it is offensive but because they get all that in their Catholic Catechisms.
I will say that these books are for me too! I have learnt so muchand it has not taxed by poor old grey cells and has been explained in a way that really hits home to me. (I suppose it is a bit like an adult coming into the Catholic faith - they say that they should start with a Baltimore Catechism or something like that first and work there way up from there because they are so effective in the child-like explainations, pictures and analogies that we really hold onto them for life).
LIFE IN THE GREAT ICE AGE - Michael & Beverly Oard
Has a lovely illustrated story of a family that lives through the aftermath of the Ice Age. Then the best I reckon is the back section that explains how the flood is the only explaination for the unique environment necessary to have created the Ice Age it also touches on the other interesting facts that the Ice Age effected - like land bridges from continent to continent ect.
THE GREAT DINOSAUR MYSTERY AND THE BIBLE by Paul S Taylor
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DINOSAURS OF EDEN - A Biblical Journey Through Time by Ken Ham
These are terrific, well illustrated books explaining all about the dinosaurs and how they fit perfectly into the Bible's account of creation and thereafter. For example, dinosaur was a word 'invented' in the 1800's what did they use before that? - dragons! All the sightings of dragrons in history - (just think the Chinese calendar uses all animals except for...dragons, but really they are an animal!)
DRY BONES AND OTHER FOSSILS by Gary E & Mary M Parker
Another great book that explains fossils, you walk away from this book thinking, "isn't it frustrating that the biggest proof of the flood has been highjacked by the evolutionists and that the fossils is one of the evolutionist's many 'Achilles' heel'."
FOOTPRINTS IN THE ASH - a most beautiful and informative book which I have written about on this forum in the "Picture books" area.
Their are also other books they produce that work as great Science books in anyone's homeschooling curriculum, WEATHER BOOK, ASTRONOMY BOOK, GEOLOGY BOOK these are SO well done! Once again beautifully illustrated and gives a thorough step-by-step explaination of those particular areas that have the lovely creation 'thread' through it rather than the normal evolutionary saturation.
I have left this beauty till last - UNLOCKING THE MYSTERIES OF CREATION By Dennis R Petersen
This beautifully illustrated/photographed book is a treasure, it covers all the weaknesses in Evolution and gives the well documented Creation answer.
It is broken into 4 Sections:
Unlocking the Mysteries of the Early Earth
Unlocking the Mysteries of Evolution
Unlocking the Mysteries of Original Man
Unlocking the Mysteries of Ancient Civilizations
There are 106 topics covered - here are two mentioned from each section.
Section 1:
Can living things verify Earth's age?
What other systems declare the earth is young?
Section 2:
Fallacy#5 - "Simple forms develop into complex forms of life in time"
Do fossils show a gradual transition of evolving animal kinds?
Section 3:
The Final End of All Supposed "Missing Links"
Can ancient reports of real dragons be taken seriously?
Section 4:
Is technology a modern innovation?
Endless descoveries continue to reveal the truth about ancient man.
This book has a great interactive? (I think) CD, we had a sample one attached to our book and my dh loved it! I think he will buy it soon (I hope).
There really is a book for every age level in children - my 3 year old Joseph, pours and pours over the dinosaur books, he comes in each morning with the chicken eggs and says, "Hey mummy, I have a T Rex egg!" he loves it and wants it read to him in the areas he can understand - he loves the pictures mostly.
I really don't know if there is much out there for children for Catholic creation books - I certainly would be interested to hear if any did match these ones. There are good adult ones, I know, maybe you could contact the Kolbe Centre (Catholic Creationists) just pop the name through the search engine and it will come up, if you contact them, they might be able to help you.
Once again I am sorry that I haven't worked out how to have the name of the books mentioned to click on to take you to where it is sold - I haven't spent the time yet to learn that, but just put them all through your search engine and you will be able to track them down easily.
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abcmommy
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I think you need to be very very careful exploring scientific theories without any science background- especially when your sources for info are so obviously biased with a need to prove a connection between the Bible and the age of the earth. I am certain people will claim that evolutionists all have an axe to grind and are not christian or are anti christian (and therefor have there own bias) but I dont believe that is so across the board.
The need to validate the Bible line by line has never seemed wise or necessary to me. The beauty of catholicism is accepting that some parts of God's creation are a mystery not explained by the bible alone.
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Anne
I am glad that these books have been helpful to you, but I feel it important to point out to others who may not know that they are so very slanted and biased (and protestant, for that matter)and full of errors in understanding evolutionary theory that their claims border on the ridiculous, scientifically speaking. Science and religion do not have to be at odds, and indeed should not be. Truth is truth, whether it be science or religion. Our Church recognizes that, thankfully, even if the protestants do not.
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MacBeth
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Just wanted to mention Mary Daly's excellent Creator and Creation as a resource for Catholics looking into the science of creation.
I have found, through extensive reading, that protestant creationists tend to make the same type of fallacious arguments that they accuse secular science of making. And secular science is often very biased against any assertion of faith (ask Michael Behe!).
I visited a site recently where a protestant group was raging against the "Big Bang." This seemed a bit odd, since this theory reveals an instant of time when our universe began. Don't they believe that the universe had a beginning, and a quick one? Much of the research on the instant of creation was conducted by a Catholic priest, and is completely compatible with Catholic belief. 1000 Years of Catholic Scientists is also available on the same page as Mary Daly's book. It is a fun way to become more informed of the Catholic contributions to science.
Frankly, we ought to be proud of Catholic contributions to all sciences, and be not afraid of good science.  That said, as Catholics, we are free to believe in a young earth and all that goes with that. And we are free to believe in an old earth.
This does not mean that we should not question science; we should! In fact, it's when we stop questioning science that bad science creeps in. And, unfortunately, bad science, once it gets printed in a text book, tends to be very difficult to correct. This is one of the reasons I hate text books.  We have all seen the photo of the peppered moth, and no doubt have heard that it "evolved" due to environmental forces. The truth is, there is no new species of peppered moth, and a change in color (or type) is not evolution. But I never read an article in the secular press that does not make this simple error. What the story does show is a classic case of natural selection (without camouflage, the moths are easily seen and eaten by predators, forcing a shift in the color population).
The point is that misunderstanding abounds. Question science, no matter the source. Keep reading, and decide for yourself.
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lapazfarm
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These sound like excellent resources, MacBeth. Thanks for the link!
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Jen L.
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This is a timely thread for me, as I was JUST thinking of posting a similar question. Now admittedly, I haven't read the links above (definitly looking forward to it though!) so bear with me. I am so bad at explaining myself. Here goes: I have never worried about how the earth came about or in how many days -- I know that God created it and us. Now that I have kids, however, I do think that the teaching of evolution as accepted fact can be dangerous. Too strong a word? I don't know. I really want to explain to my kids that evolution is a THEORY and that there is no evidence of species-to-species evolution. I don't want to rely on bad science or put my head in the sand either. 
Does that make any sense??
I better go read those links now...
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MichelleM
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aussieannie wrote:
Michelle, this is a subject dear to my heart and so I will mention a few of the easy to read, easy to understand, colourful illustrated/photographed books that I use with my children regularly.
THE GREAT DINOSAUR MYSTERY AND THE BIBLE by Paul S Taylor
DRY BONES AND OTHER FOSSILS by Gary E & Mary M Parker
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Thanks Anne for the recommendations. I have these two books on hold at our library along with some other's written from a Creationist's veiw point. Most were already checked out but should be returned soon.
aussieannie wrote:
| Their are also other books they produce that work as great Science books in anyone's homeschooling curriculum, WEATHER BOOK, ASTRONOMY BOOK, GEOLOGY BOOK these are SO well done! |
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I was just pouring over a homeschooling catalog looking for books on geology and circled the Geology Book. We have the Weather Book and my oldest really has enjoyed it. 
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MichelleM
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MacBeth wrote:
| Just wanted to mention Mary Daly's excellent Creator and Creation as a resource for Catholics looking into the science of creation. |
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It looks like a great book! From the description it seems to address the errors of both the Neo-Darwinists (I’m understanding Neo-Darwinism to mean completely unguided, naturalistic evolution, please correct me if I’m wrong) as well as the Young Earth Creationists.
MacBeth wrote:
| Frankly, we ought to be proud of Catholic contributions to all sciences, and be not afraid of good science. That said, as Catholics, we are free to believe in a young earth and all that goes with that. And we are free to believe in an old earth. |
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Thanks for clarifying that point. I’m glad to know that if my reason leads me to conclude that Young Earth Creationism is true or vice versa (within certain parameters) I am still within orthodoxy.
MacBeth wrote:
| The point is that misunderstanding abounds. Question science, no matter the source. Keep reading, and decide for yourself. |
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Great advice MacBeth! Very reasonable!
May I ask; what do you believe?
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aussieannie
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My first posting was indeed very focused on Protestant books only since I find them so good for the children. So I will try to keep a more Catholic prespective this time and I know that is important.
I am sure many heard or read the inaugeral speech of Pope Benedict XVI last year, it was lovely to hear him state that, "We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution." Now I know that those who support theistic evolution would have no problem with that and vis versa and I agree, but I was delighted, as it was not a complete surprise to me to hear him say that.
In May, 1989 the then Cardinal Ratzinger addressed members of the European Doctrinal Commission. He was asked where the difficulties lay which people have with the Faith today, and he went on to discuss the roots of the problems. He spoke of the almost complete disappearance of the doctrine of Creation and its replacement by a secularized philosophy of Evolution. The resultant decline also meant that the figure of Jesus Christ was reduced to a purely historical person. The Cardinal stressed his concern that a renewed Christianisty could only be accomplished if the teaching on Creation is developed anew - that "such an undertaking ought to be regarded as one of the most pressing tasks of theology today."
It is true - that it is an area that the Church has yet to flesh-out and clarify fully but I suppose that the Church has always been very prudent to act slowly and decisively in such important areas.
I know how I feel about this subject but I also know that when it is fully clarified that I will submit wholeheartedly to whatever is binding.
Here is the website I had mentioned previously - that gives the Catholic prospective for the Young Earth supporters. The Kolbe Center
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While I think of it, I do recommend the book that is sold on the Kolbe Center site called Creation Rediscovered - Evolution and The Importance of The Origins Debate by Gerard J Keane - the same one that is critiqued on the Creator and Creation website.
I am not trying to throw a cat among the pigeons here (Well, I don't think.. ) but I really got alot from this book.
It is broken into two parts basically, the scientific look at the issue (very heavy going, I had a friend who is a science teacher say he really had to concentrate) and then Catholic theology which does include a section about theistic evolution and the encyclicals (I think Michelle you mentioned that initially, well they are all referred to in this book.) This book is for adults of course and can be quite heavy going but still worth the read.
I am just adding to this post of mine - on the same Kolbe site you can get the condensed booklet version of Gerard Keane's if you want a lighter, quicker read, it is called Special Creation Rediscoved
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MacBeth
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MichelleM wrote:
May I ask; what do you believe?
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Cornered!
The short answer: Credo in unum deum... 
The long(er) answer: I am a skeptic. I make sure I know the arguments so I can speak intelligently about them. I question science, because that's what makes science what it is. I teach my kids to question, and I teach evolution as a theory. I bug my evolutionist friends by commenting on what a nice theory evolution is. That makes them demonstrate how far the belief in evolution has strayed from true science, as they swear it is a fact.
Same thing with the creationists. I have no problem with creation, special creation, and intelligent design, as long as no one points to a passage in the bible and tells me that it proves some scientific point. It might be totally true, but it is not scientific proof. Truth and proof are two different things...even when they agree  . It is not that science and faith are incompatable...they are must be; but they are two different things.
Intelligent design is a great topic. I think that Behe and friends might have gotten more of a fair shake on this idea if they did not immediately call for God's involvement. Atheists (by definition) have such a strong bias against God that the ideas got lost and denied up front. But that's the atheists' problem, right?
Not trying to convince anyone here. This continues to be the most debatable topic of our day. If nothing else, we should all be happy to be homeschoolers, where we can make sure our kids are not caught up in some text-book company's view on the topic, one way or another.
Aside: I had to laugh the other day when a member of a naturalist e-mail list I am on was outraged that the Park Service is selling creationist books (along side evolutionary books) at the Grand Canyon. And they have the nerve to complain that people of faith want to stifle discussion and ban books!! Not I!
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MacBeth wrote:
MichelleM wrote:
May I ask; what do you believe?
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Cornered!
The short answer: Credo in unum deum...
The long(er) answer: I am a skeptic. I make sure I know the arguments so I can speak intelligently about them. |
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Read the question....
envisioned MacBeth in the crosshairs of a high powered scope
So well expressed,MacBeth you are,as always, the consumate science/nature teacher.
Thank you .
Now to do some summer reading on my own so I can be confident in discussing this issue here in my corner of the workld.
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MichelleM
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MacBeth wrote:
MichelleM wrote:
May I ask; what do you believe?
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Cornered!
The short answer: Credo in unum deum...
The long(er) answer: I am a skeptic.
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Thanks MacBeth. I guess I did put you under a microscope! I appreciate you being so forthcoming.
Quite honestly, I am amazed at how interesting this subject has become for me and all the rabbit trails it is taking me down. My nose has been stuck at the computer for the past two days & I'm actually excited to study fossils and dinosaurs with the children! Before when I thought of our trip to Utah, all I could think of was the heat!
Obviously I have not drawn any conclusions as of what I believe but oh the possibilities! All the new ideas to explore and questions to try to answer. I think I'm actually appreciating the beauty of science! Or at least good science. (Don't get me wrong; I’ve always appreciated creation. It's beauty & design have always drawn me closer to God but this new appreciation is for what science is-something that can be proven & measured!)
I’ll close with a quote from FIDES ET RATIO because, well, I just think it is so beautiful and appropriate when considering the Origins Debate. (Just one of the rabbit trails I've gone down.)
"Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves."
For anyone who wants to read the rest of
Faith & Reason.
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lapazfarm
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That is awesome, Michelle! Your enthusiasm will certainly be infectious with your children and be a model for them of life-long learning!
I love the quote, btw. "Two wings..." is such a lovely way of thinking about it!
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MichelleM wrote:
| "Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves." |
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That is indeed a beautiful quote Michelle, isn't it wonderful that we can rely on the Catholic Faith to always give us that, as we can fall short of that individually - I know I do.
This topic is one that the Church is yet to set us in "concrete" as it cannot both be thesistic evolution and young earth creation but we will all rest in the knowledge and beauty of that quote, when finally in God's perfect time, it is revealed.
(I have finally learnt how to quote! This topic has challenged me to learn hyperlinks too - Yahoo!!)
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My husband found this article today and it is very interesting so I found this old link to place this article in - well worth a read! I think mainly it shows that the church is starting to discuss this subject a bit more.
Pope sacks astronomer over evolution debate
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4Real Forums : Exploring God's Creation in Nature and Science
Topic: Intelligent Design/Creationism/Darwin
