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Becky Parker
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| Posted: April 08 2011 at 9:13am | IP Logged
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I need your help ladies! (Yes, me again  ). I really need to do a better job of fitting narration and dictation into my day. Let me start by saying that I sometimes lurk at the TWTM forums. I usually come away feeling way overwhelmed so I don't go there often. But, I did read something that really struck me not too long ago. It is the last post on this page Basically they are talking about the important aspects of educating your children, most of which we talk about here on a regular basis - copywork, narration, dictation, math... and how they are more important than teaching your children content. (Teach them to learn and they can learn anything, teach them facts and they know facts.)
So, as I'm thinking about goals for next year I evaluated how I cover these most important, basic elements. I guess they could be called the pillars of education  . This is what I came up with ~
::Math - 5 stars. We do math every day. Why? Because it's "pegged" to breakfast. The kids get their math books out and we do it altogether while they eat. I circulate and help where needed.
::Copywork - 5 stars. We do it most every day. Why? Because it's independent work. I plan it ahead of time but every day the kids just do it.
::Read Alouds - 5 stars. Every day. Why? It's pegged to Tea Time. I read historical fiction or just good literature on a regular basis. This is our favorite part of the day. More food and good books!
::Reading instruction for younger kids - 4 stars. Some times the younger kids are too squirrely to attend so I don't do as much on those days. Why does this get done? I think it is the top priority in 1st and 2nd grades to cover phonics and learning to read. If I don't do anything else with my younger kids I at least take a few minutes for phonics / reading instruction.
I wont bore you with the rest, but I wanted to show you what we were doing well and give you an idea why, in the hopes that you could help me with the following, which get a "D" or even an "F" on my report card:
Dictation
Narration
Picture Study
Memory Work (My kids enjoy memorizing poetry, I'm just not as consistant as I should be in going over it with them. States and capitals, Catechism questions, etc. should be drilled more often but I don't get to it.)
I think part of my problem is that I'm so "type A" and the programs I've used that address these things so beautifully are more random than I am comfortable with. PLL and ILL for example, have been on my shelves for 9 years and every year I plan to use one or both of them depending on my kids ages. But, shortly into the school year, it goes back on the shelf. It's not always the kids, it's me! I'm so weird! I need to know that Monday is copywork, Tuesday is dictation, Wednesday is narration .....
Does that sound nuts? I've also tried putting together my own stuff, which works for a time, but I get overwhelmed. I think the other problem we have with the "sit on the couch with mom" type books is that my kids, other than my dd and my 3yo, really don't want to sit on the couch. The boys seem to prefer a more "sit at a table/desk and get it done approach".
Besides a definite routine for things, pegging also seems to work for me. Does anyone do the above in a very systamatic, routine way or peg them to certain times of the day that would be willing to share? I really want to find a way to make this work better around here.
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Becky
Wife to Wes, Mom to 6 wonderful kids on Earth and 4 in Heaven!
Academy Of The Good Shepherd
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LMBMommyof4
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| Posted: April 08 2011 at 10:53am | IP Logged
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Hi Becky.
I don't have any specific advice, per se, but I will pray a heartfelt Hail Mary that you find an approach/schedule that fits your needs and those of your children. :-)
It is so difficult, isn't it? I find myself now evaluating all of the curricula we are using, thinking that I'm not doing enough in some areas, wanting to give my kids a more hands-on approach (my boys thrive with that). I'm trying to decide what we're going to change for next year and what is going to stay the same. Decisions, decisions. :-)
God bless,
Lisa
Mom to Michael (almost 13), Jonathan (11), Matthew (9) and Katharine (7)
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MNMommy
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| Posted: April 08 2011 at 11:12am | IP Logged
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I have similar issues. If things aren't easy to implement and consistent to do (as in 4ish days/week), they just don't get done. Writing With Ease has been very effective for us. It gets done because it is scheduled every day, and it's open-and-go for me. I am trying to be more consistent with other narrations, but at least I *know* the scheduled narrations and dictations in WWE get done.
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Jennifer
Tired mom to - 10yo dd, 7yo ds, 6yo ds, 4yo dd, 2yo ds
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Becky Parker
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| Posted: April 09 2011 at 7:54am | IP Logged
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My goodness, I just came back and re-read my post and I can see why I need something very systematic. I apologize for how scattered that is. I guess I know where my ds gets his ADHD. But, as I reflected on this, I think that is really the thing. My own scatteredness (if that's a word). If something is going to get done around here, it really has to be built into our routine.
Really, in my post above, I identified two areas of struggle - finding a consistant, scheduled time to do the things we're not getting to, and second, finding a program that fits, or, using the programs I already have in a way that works.
I thought about this alot yesterday while doing the laundry. I think I have an idea for the second part of my problem - using the programs I have in a way that works best for me, and therefore my children.
Has anyone used the PLL or ILL books out of order? (Gasp!)I mean, instead of following the order of the book, I thought I might be able to go through it with colored tabs and tab the various pages for dictation, copywork, picture study, etc.
Thankyou for your prayers Lisa! I so often forget when these struggles arise to stop fretting and start praying!
Jennifer, I've been tempted by WWE! I'm just trying to resist buying yet another Language Arts type program. I would be interested to know how it compares to ILL though.
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Becky
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Grace&Chaos
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Becky, I haven't used ILL out of order (my first time using it). I did notice that there are times when I just let my dd skip parts because we just did something similar during our scheduled copywork, picture study, poetry times. Or for example, we don't do the dictation at all because we do two days of dictation with the Modern Speller. So usually she just reads the passage and any other instruction with it.
I hope that made sense  .
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Jenny
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Mackfam
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| Posted: April 09 2011 at 9:07am | IP Logged
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Becky Parker wrote:
I really need to do a better job of fitting narration and dictation into my day.
* * *
Dictation
Narration
Picture Study
Memory Work (My kids enjoy memorizing poetry, I'm just not as consistant as I should be in going over it with them. States and capitals, Catechism questions, etc. should be drilled more often but I don't get to it.). |
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Becky,
This is as much about finding the right tool as it is an exercise in self-discipline. I think you probably know that. I'll give you an example from my history -- a few years ago, I felt like I was becoming overwhelmed in all the details...I'd forget to ask for narrations, or other things would come up and then it would be days and I might remember to ask about something. Our dictations weren't consistent enough for me to see any real benefit. I knew these were important to me and I renewed my commitment to them. They had never stopped being important, but you know how life just changes, evolves, and one day you find yourself trying to deal with the current season with an older season's tools and strategies. Anyway, I realized that this was what I was doing. At one time, I could mentally juggle a number of details in my head, but the more children, the more responsibilities I gained, the less I could mentally juggle. I put in place some simple tools to help me. Over the years, these reminder/organizer tools have looked different, but by far the most efficient and helpful has been the simplest! Simply adding the following to each of the children's lesson plans provides them with clear expectations, and provides me with a very visual reminder:
:: O Narrate :: O Dictate :: O Written Narration :: O Nature Walk :: O Nature Sketch ::
I keep these reminders a different color to stand out to me. The rest is just plain old self-discipline. It's important to me, so I had to set up the habit of follow-through.
Perhaps this could go along with your idea to try to make your plans work better for you?? Perhaps you can consider ways to clearly state that your expectations for this child are "x" on the lesson plans. The children have the responsibility to complete what you ask, and you are responsible for holding them to it.
Narrations
I know I've said on here before that the older the child, the further away from the actual reading time that I may hear their narration. I just can't always stop at 10:15 on the nose to hear a narration - I may be working with my 6 yo. So, I do PEG narrations to the following:
:: meal prep
:: meals
:: other chore time (like laundry)
:: errand/driving time is a great time to hear narrations.
:: when you're nursing is a great time to listen to narrations!
I have a strict rule that I hear narrations when my hands are busy but my mind is not engaged elsewhere. At the end of the day, I assess lesson plans to see if we're short on some narrations. I may not ask for every narration I have listed on the day, and that's ok - but the child knows that I could ask for any of those narrations and they are prepared. I wanted to throw out a couple of other ideas for families with a number of children narrating:
:: Have children narrate to siblings - particularly history!! Living history books appeal to ANY child and once they start getting into a book, they relish hearing from their sibling what happens next!!! SIDE NOTE -- I've gotten many second hand narrations that way!!! Great tool!!!
:: Save a special narration for dad! My husband delights in hearing narrations, especially from the older kids. Yesterday, my daughter was so proud of her written narration/essay on Lepanto that she couldn't wait to give it to her dad to read, and he was super impressed! Win-win!!! Kids love to know they've pleased dad, and dad really enjoys seeing/hearing their children's communication abilities blossom and mature!!!
Dictations
NOW....dictations for me are pegged to a time, and they are completed, without fail, at that time on the lesson plans. Period! I have (so far) 2 students that are not natural spellers. In fact, one started out with some heavily dyslexic tendencies. Dictation needed to be short, gentle, and consistent. We have made AMAZING, AMAZING progress with this approach! I would so encourage you to find a place on your plans that dictation fits naturally and just MAKE IT STICK (assuming of course that it's important to you  )!!! It is such an under-rated tool that yields INCREDIBLE results! 10 minutes a day of dictation and I can address just about any grammatical, mechanical, spelling, reading habit issue (I always have the child read the selection aloud to me...I can address if they're not really reading words but just flying over them, enunciating properly, etc.). Of course, I only address one little thing at a time...but over the years -- what a huge investment of time!!! This one is well worth making a priority, if you choose is as an important part of your phil of ed.
Picture Study
This is something that I've approached in various ways over the years. Sometimes, we're more structured and study one artist and then spend some time focusing on their artwork throughout the term, and sometimes, I just go through art books/calendars and we study one piece ala CM. If we're being more focused about it, it's probably listed on my plans, which I hold myself accountable to (again...self-discipline). If we're being more relaxed, it's a spot on our Fine Arts Fridays and often inspires a more relaxed type rabbit trail about the artist and a subsequent art time with the children trying their hand with different mediums and styles of art.
Memory Work
Merciful heavens - this is THE EASIEST thing to work in!!!! First thing in the morning -->
ME - Let's work on your poem (me grabbing poetry book, child collecting thoughts)
ME - Go ahead whenever you're ready.
CHILD - "Spring has come, by Holmes. The elms have robed their slender spray :: With full-blown flower and......."
ME - "....flower and embryo leaf"
CHILD - "with full blown flower and embryo leaf; Wide o'er the clasping arch of day :: ...."
ME - Ok...that's good for now...can you repeat what you know one more time?
CHILD - repeats (I prompt again if necessary)
DONE
Again...it's the slow, steady progression of this very, very short approach that at the end of the day yields some gems that are forever a part of the child's memory.
IDEAS:
:: Decide what each child will work on for memory work for the term - poetry? Bible verse? catechism questions?
:: Gather these resources for yourself and put them in a basket/bin somewhere in the kitchen!!!!!
:: Every morning, after morning devotions, or as the kids are doing clean-up after breakfast, spend a few minutes with your memory gems basket. This shouldn't take more than 15 minutes for ALL the children, and even less time if they're all working on the same project.
* * * * * * * *
BeckyParker wrote:
| Has anyone used the PLL or ILL books out of order? (Gasp!)I mean, instead of following the order of the book, I thought I might be able to go through it with colored tabs and tab the various pages for dictation, copywork, picture study, etc. |
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You bet!!! This is how I use both of these books...in fact, I was considering dis-assembling them and putting them back together in the order I usually use them! But post-it tabs would work as well...you could index the entire book to see at a glance where picture study falls, dictation lessons, grammar lessons, etc. Either way -- YES! I use the books completely out of order!! And I give you complete permission to do the same if you wish! 
Hope something here helps, Becky! I know my examples are specific to our family, but if you have decided that these methods :: narration, dictation, picture study, memory work :: are truly important to you and an important part of your children's education, then it's really just a matter of finding places for them that *fit* with your family's natural rhythm (pegging them is a great tool!!!!! Peg them to something already established). Then, it's just a matter of self-discipline in the follow through (ouch! I know...I've been there...but it's SOOO worth it!!!!).
 Good luck!!! Recognizing that you need to make some changes, and making it a priority is a GREAT START!!! I'm cheering for you!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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Becky Parker
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| Posted: April 09 2011 at 9:21am | IP Logged
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This makes perfect sense Jenny! But, doing things out of order is one thing, completely skipping them??? Whew, I don't know! Just kidding of course. I really need to be more relaxed I guess. Maybe instead of planning a "Language Arts" time each day I should break them down - copy work, narration, dictation ...and if one gets taken care of in another subject (like dictation for spelling) I can check it off and skip that in ILL. Sounds quite elementary I know, but for some reason this sort of thing is difficult for me. Maybe it's my years as a classroom teacher and following the textbooks.
Grace&Chaos wrote:
Becky, I haven't used ILL out of order (my first time using it). I did notice that there are times when I just let my dd skip parts because we just did something similar during our scheduled copywork, picture study, poetry times. Or for example, we don't do the dictation at all because we do two days of dictation with the Modern Speller. So usually she just reads the passage and any other instruction with it.
I hope that made sense . |
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Becky
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Becky Parker
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| Posted: April 09 2011 at 9:26am | IP Logged
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Ah Jen! As I read this I was doing a lot of knodding and mmmm-hmmmm - ing. I see you understand what I am going through! I'm going to take some time to read the rest of your post and respond when I don't have a toddler trying to type with me. Thanks so much!
Mackfam wrote:
| I'll give you an example from my history -- a few years ago, I felt like I was becoming overwhelmed in all the details...I'd forget to ask for narrations, or other things would come up and then it would be days and I might remember to ask about something. Our dictations weren't consistent enough for me to see any real benefit. I knew these were important to me and I renewed my commitment to them. They had never stopped being important, but you know how life just changes, evolves, and one day you find yourself trying to deal with the current season with an older season's tools and strategies. Anyway, I realized that this was what I was doing. At one time, I could mentally juggle a number of details in my head, but the more children, the more responsibilities I gained, the less I could mentally juggle. |
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Becky
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Mackfam
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| Posted: April 09 2011 at 9:49am | IP Logged
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Becky Parker wrote:
| if one gets taken care of in another subject (like dictation for spelling) I can check it off and skip that in ILL. |
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YES!! This!
Doing a dictation lesson AND back-filling with a spelling workbook/program = Mom & Kid BURNOUT!!! And it's redundant. It sometimes takes faith to step out and say, "I'm going to trust that these methods are enough. I don't need all the workbooks and extra programs." That is a TOUGH step out! I know! But, it's freeing and simplifies the entire day!!! The hardest part about CM's methods is trusting that they are enough, that in their simplicity, they yield the results we're looking for. You don't get overnight results.
And...there are just so many pretty/handy/convenient workbooks and programs out there...so we add in a thing or two here...just to make sure there's coverage.
Now, I like PLL and ILL, but I use them as supplements, If I ever get overwhelmed, or have to peel back layers on my plans, I drop back to the basics because I've been in that place where I tried to allow a sort of "let's follow Charlotte Mason's methods, but I'm going to add x, y and z for insurance" and it was DISASTROUS for us.
Examples -->
dictation AND spelling program/workbook
narrations AND oral comprehension questions
copywork AND handwriting workbook
Certainly, you can do the EITHER/OR thing....but trying to do the *this AND that* thing (CM's methods on top of another program addressing the same subject) can end up in burnout in my experience. Why? Because CM's methods are RIGOROUS all by themselves! RIGOROUS!!! Back-filling more in the day is tedious and wears a child down. It quickly snuffs out their tender love of learning, and becomes a burden on you to see everything through. Very quickly.
Ok...hope I'm not too far off topic.
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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LMBMommyof4
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Jen,
Thank you so much for your posts! I wish you could come and spend some time in my house, lol! :-)
Just like you said, I find that I am getting overwhelmed with details since I am schooling 4 children in different age groups and I know if I'm getting stressed, it's getting passed on to the kids.
Like Becky, I was a classroom teacher before having my children and we were so "programmed" to follow lesson plans and go "by the textbook." Time to break that mold, I guess! :-)
Thanks for your wonderful advice and examples. You are an inspiration!
God bless,
Lisa
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stellamaris
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Mackfam wrote:
| And...there are just so many pretty/handy/convenient workbooks and programs out there...so we add in a thing or two here...just to make sure there's coverage. |
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Great post, Jennifer! I think that the temptation to add "one more thing" is insidious and really IS a major cause of burnout. Especially at this time of year, I keep on telling myself as I plan: "Less is more...less is more!"
This is one tough lesson for me, but I'm beginnning (after all these years ) to realize that my tendency to add on more and more actually springs from my fear of failure. I have to remind myself that the children DO learn! It's OK to let go of that fear and trust that the Lord will guide us.
As far as using PLL/ILL out of order...YES! I do tons of books out of order, or even partially as they meet OUR needs. It's OK...the curriculum is there as your servant, not your master!
One poetry memorization resource that helped me was IEW's Linguistic Development through Poetry Memorization. The best part of this book is the chart for memorizing and reviewing the poems the child has already memorized. It's pretty expensive, but if you can look at someone's copy or get a used copy, it might be one tool that could help you with consistency.
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Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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Heliodora
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I second the suggestion to have the older kids work with the younger ones. Not only does this save time and streamline the day, it is excellent reinforcement for the older ones. The kids like this on so many different levels since it gives them a break from mom and makes them feel important and independent.
I also suggest the IEW Poetry program. It is so helpful to have everything on CD so that we can listen at a meal or in the car. If you are unwilling to buy the set, but willing to take a little time, you can make your own poetry lists and audio recordings. My children work on this rather independently, but I've also promised certain rewards for finishing the levels. They either recite to me or to one of their siblings and then once a poem is mastered, write it in their memory books, which covers all sorts of skills.
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Becky Parker
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Jen, thank you so much for your thorough and helpful reply. I so appreciate the amount of time and thoughtfulness that was put into that.
I LOVE the idea of pegging narrations to meal preparation time. I always have one or two kids hanging out in the kitchen with me at that time. What a perfect idea!
I think I need to address the issue of my own discipline for some of these things. Narration (oral) and dictation take my time, and for my kid's sake it should really be a consistant time each day. While my kids work independently I usually cycle through them and I do use a checklist of sorts to cover the subjects that I need to with each child. I think I'll move dictation to the top of the list and do it first. That will ensure it gets done. If we're rushed or having a bad day, it's the items at the bottom of the list that get skipped for time.
I think, too, that I really need to evaluate my own thoughts and feelings about things like narration/dictation/memory work etc. Why don't I put a higher priority on them? Probably because that is not how I was taught, nor is it how I taught as a classroom teacher for ten years. Since my oldest is in highschool, I wonder if I shouldn't use a more traditional approach since my other kids might go to the same highschool. BUT, the fact is, I taught my oldest using CM methods and that's probably why he is doing so well in highschool. He knows how to learn!
But, heres another question - isn't it kind of hard on mom though? It seems so much of CM methodology requires mom to be right there. When it was my oldest, I only had one other child. She would sit and play in her little playpen or on the floor next to me and I could spend all sorts of time with just him. It was great! Now, with six, I can barely keep the house clean let alone sit with each one for so long. Not to mention my little boys aren't so willing to just sit nicely and play while I teach the others. They are so full of energy! It's so much easier to have the kids pull out a workbook page, go over the directions with them, and let them do it. Do I sound like a bad mom?
Sorry to be a bit whiney here. I guess I'm just trying to get to the root cause of why we don't accomplish these things in our day like we should.
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Becky
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Heliodora
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Becky, I think you bring up a very valid question. How much of any methodology is really necessary? We should not be slaves to our tools, and education is an art, not a science. When you learn to cook, you must follow rules and the recipe, but after you've done it for a while, you realize that the recipe is really only a guideline and there are no hard and fast rules. Sure there are the gourmet gurus who insist that things must be done a certain way, but that takes all the joy out of it.
With nine children (soon to be ten,) I've learned to move away from stringent methods simply for my own sanity. It's not possible to give the same kind of attention to each child, or to homeschool the same way as you did in the beginning; it is not necessary. And with that experience you've gained, you have the needed self confidence to ignore the gurus, who aren't living your unique family circumstances, and who aren't mothering your children. If we are finding that we have to schedule every five minutes of the day in order to fit everything in, that is a sign that we are doing too much- not that we are undisciplined or lazy. Giving your child a workbook is not the end of the world, lol, and you are not a bad mom if you use them.
There are so many pressures on us to do everything, but family dynamics and logistics demand a different kind of adaptation. And it's not as if you have to start over in the same way with each child. As you know, the time and effort you were able to spend with your oldest already benefits the younger ones because you've created a learning environment and the younger ones glean off of the example of the older ones. Your oldest is doing so well because of what you did with him, but the younger ones don't have the same needs. He didn't have the benefit of older siblings' examples, like your younger ones do, so he needed more one-on-one time.
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Becky Parker
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Thank you for the encouragement and good reminder Heliodora! At this time of year, as I prepare for next, I evaluate what was good and bad, what I need to address for the coming year, what I should probably drop in the interest of time, etc. I often find myself discouraged over what I feel we didn't do well and vow to make it different next year! What I forget though, is that I also need to see what we are doing well, AND I forget that I really shouldn't compare to what others are doing. As you said, my family circumstances are unique, and I should be looking inward at what WE are doing, not outward at what others are doing.
That said, I really do want to incorporate more of what I see are learning skills, and not focus so much on just content, but I know I need to relax a little and put more of this to prayer. I get a bit panicky and wonder "How on earth am I going to do this!" When I need to wonder how does God want me to do this, which is a much more peaceful wonderment, in my opinion!
Thanks for helping me think this through ladies!
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Becky
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4Real Forums : Planning and Ordering our Days
Topic: Help me do a better job... (long!)
