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teachingmyown
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| Posted: Jan 10 2007 at 1:27pm | IP Logged
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It's me again! 
Homeschooling using Seton is not working. I am very skeptical about anything working at home at this point with Charlie.
I have put in applications to two very small (20-40 students max) Catholic schools, both about 20-30 minutes away. One is classical in philosophy, the other is more standard,text-book style from what I have heard. The classical one has on advantage which would be a possible carpool. Other than that, I don't think it is an environment that Charlie could stand. I think the other school would be a little more to his liking. Neither school has sports, obviously.
When I told him he was going to one or the other, he said he was just glad to get away from homeschooling. But now he has started lobbying hard for going back to the public high school he went to last year.
I have gone back through my various threads asking for help. I know my reasons for not wanting him there. But I am waivering anyway.
He even made a list of pro's and con's for all of the schools.
The pro's of public school are: sports, transportation, financial, friends (that is his pro, not mine!), block scheduling which would mean he could enter at the semester break and start four new classes instead of entering mid-year somewhere else where he would have to worry about catching up.
The con's of public school: not Catholic, lack of discipline, drugs (which he doesn't do, so he says it isn't really a problem), immoral environment, mediocre academics (he says he can take AP courses so it won't be that bad).
For me, I guess I am dreading the drive to Catholic school and worrying about the money. I am sorry that he wouldn't be able to play football and be around some of his nice friends more. And in the end, I can't help but wonder if this kid isn't going to make the decisions he wants regardless of what school he is in. I am not advocating giving up on him, or giving him what he wants in the hope he will behave. I am just trying to be realistic.
My dh's only comment so far is "do I really think that sending him to public school will make my life better, or just seem easier?".
Our pastor, as I mentioned in another thread, was not enthusiastic about any of our options, and told us to keep praying. The funny thing is, about two days later, he saw Charlie and told Charlie he should keep playing football. This was a totally out-of-the-blue comment, and I wonder where it came from. I didn't get a chance to ask and he is on vacation right now.
So,friends, help me through this. Tell me if I am crazy if you think so. Tell me what you think you would do.
And pray for us. Life is moving forward and I need to make a decision, once and for all.
__________________
In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
Remembering Today
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BrendaPeter
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| Posted: Jan 10 2007 at 2:59pm | IP Logged
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teachingmyown wrote:
Homeschooling using Seton is not working. I am very skeptical about anything working at home at this point with Charlie. |
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Could you be more specific? What exactly is not working? Is it the curriculum or him being home? Or both?
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Blessings,
Brenda (mom to 6)
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teachingmyown
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| Posted: Jan 10 2007 at 3:28pm | IP Logged
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Brenda,
Really it is both. He hates being home. And we both hate Seton. I enrolled him because I thought that the check off the boxes approach, with someone else grading, would work best for him. I knew he wouldn't be happy with anything, so I chose what I thought we be the path of least resistance.
Instead, he is weary of having to memorize what he reads in order to put it back out, practically verbatum, on the tests. He finds the texts dry, we are living books type of people, so that makes it worse.
With the English course, we have found that it is hard to know what the grader is looking for. Charlie is a very reluctant writer and needs more encouragement and variety than he gets from Seton. One of the required essays was "Why I like homeschooling". Needless to say, that didn't go over real well!
But overall, he is just unhappy at home. I am doing Geometry with him and doing Apologia Biology instead of Seton's and he is difficult with that as well.
I have considered switching to MODG. I have a good friend who is a consultant, who has offered to take us on and even give Charlie extra tutoring, but I know he doesn't want to do this. As much as he doesn't want me to teach him, he feels even more strongly against one of my friends teaching him.
I have considered switching to Kolbe as well, now that they have grading services. But I have to wonder if that will fix anything. If I keep him home, that is probably what I will do. At least I will enjoy the material more!
I have a real problem decision-making. Even small decisions can throw me into a downward spiral. So when the stakes are high, I get paralyzed.  I am sure it sounds ridiculous to most people.
Thanks for asking for the clarification.
__________________
In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
Remembering Today
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ALmom
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| Posted: Jan 10 2007 at 5:50pm | IP Logged
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Molly:
I don't know you or your son very well so take everything with a grain of salt please! It just sounds like we had some similiar struggles and frustrations.
I felt exactly what you described when we tried Seton. I thought it would be a quick way for credits and might fit this child's desire for more structure and, to be honest I also hoped it would relieve me some and give me more time and energy to be there for the younger children. I could have said ditto to all you said about Seton. We both disliked it and were immensely stressed by it. In addition we found a real resistance to the way the faith was presented. My daughter found it insulting - though it was very accurate, it was just the approach did not work for us. We did use Kolbe our way the following year with much more success - but combined it with some other things. I'm not saying Seton isn't a fine resource for some - for us it was a near disaster, despite our dd making good grades.
If you could somehow figure out exactly what it is about homeschooling that bothers Charlie, you may be able to find a solution. Also if you could get him to make comparisons between all the ways he has experienced school that may give you some clues - what he liked and didn't like about each. If you share back and forth what you each see, you may end up getting a bit more information from him. If you see public school as too damaging that it should not be considered for this son, better to tell him right up front that it is not on the table at all - but you'd like to find out what was so attractive to him about it so that you can look for ways to meet the needs that he felt the school filled in some other way besides public school.
It took us a while to figure out what was bothering our dd - some because she was naturally reticent, some because there was a certain angst that she couldn't always peg - but once we started narrowing in on it, we found some things to do.
Here are some of the things my dd had trouble with about homeschooling:
She didn't have enough time outside of home to mingle with a wider variety of people. (I didn't mind her practicing social skills, etc. but I didn't want her just hanging out so we looked for something focused that she loved that she could do in a larger group of teens yet met my criteria - we found ours in orchestra).
She needed to be allowed to think - not be told what to think (this was her major problem with Seton, not with me or with Kolbe).
She wanted to have the opportunity to get feedback from someone other than me (too much mom so to speak - so someone official to review her papers, compliments from outside the family, opportunities for recognition from someone outside the immediate family. She really missed the honor societies, being able to brag about AP courses, etc.) We were able to get some of this through a small English class (5 girls in the class with a retired English teacher - the class was way too easy, but we felt it was worth it for her to have a chance to share ideas, and get feedback from another adult). She also got some recognition in orchestra when she made concert master and through a Spanish tutor we hired.
She needed to see us letting go more - but we were able to communicate that this came as we saw signs of greater responsibility. This did come naturally, but not at the expense of us failing to be parents. She began to see that being open with us made us more able to let go. The whole process is a learning experience for both parents and child - and they do have to learn to be patient with us as well. One priest wisely suggested that I let her make her own mistakes in areas of safety.
She wanted to know exactly what was required, what needed to be done, etc. My own assignments were sometimes too loosely phrased (that was her complaint with things I pulled from MODG syllabi). She did not want to memorize and regurgitate but she didn't want such open ended assignments that she didn't know where she was headed or at what point I'd call her done. She did not like school dragging out forever.
She wanted some time and space where she was doing things with her peers and not always having a whole bunch of littles tag along. I know this sounds bad - but it really was legitimate. She and we do value our family time together and continue to do most things as an entire family. However, there are times that she legitimately needed and desired a chance to do grown up things and sometimes having 5 little ones around sometimes means you cannot play a full fledged sport due to safety or cannot play a game because of little hands. I do think that patiently including them is important - but having a balance of some times to play that long game with a dozen little pieces means we are also appreciating the needs and interests of our older children. I have had to learn this balancing act more because my children, by happenstance, have wide gaps in ages (4 years between the first and 2nd).
I also came to realize that my indecisiveness was having a very negative affect on her. We wanted to be empathetic with her difficulties (and they were real, life could be immensely lonely without friends here) but at some point we had to just realize that there was nothing we could do about some things, and it was up to us to make the best of it. We came across very solidly on certain things. For us homeschooling was the only option, therefore that was a given. She didn't necessarily love that or even like it at first - but that was the way it was. She could help us make it the best possible (not perfect, of course) or she could just live through it. She decided to work with us to make it the best possible that we could make it. We basically told her we wouldn't stop trying to find opportunities for some of the things she thought she was missing, some of these things are more difficult to do from a homeschooling setting and we'd have to think outside the box - and we might or might not find the answers- but we'd keep looking together.
I did have to learn not to get emotional with her - matter of fact addressing of problems at hand was the best way to go. She tended to get stressed over certain things (everything that she didn't catch onto immediately, except for music)but she did learn to matter of factly handle these frustrations when I kept reminding myself that these were her problems (not mine) and while I could assist her in understanding, make suggestions in how to budget her time (don't put off your most distasteful subject, that will make for a miserable summer, etc.) and on and on. A few times it took doing that distasteful subject all summer long - boy did she learn how to budget time. I gave reminders or pointers, but did not get wrapped around the axle about them, and did not nag. She learned - and it has been a valuable ability for her. I decided that there were certain things that were required for graduation - and I really, truely stopped caring how long it took her to finish them - we worked through summers, ---. She wanted to be out of high school in 4 years and once I let go of worrying about whether she made it or not, she learned quickly. (She finished her chemistry in half a year because she was not going to have to do another science all year long and into the summer due to procrastination ....).
We came to where we worked out a system where we came up with a plan to follow, it was laid out in the lesson plans for a week at a time - but I never paid attention to where she was on that. When the assignments were done, her X grade year was done. She seemed to flourish more on her ability to set her own pace. She did inform me when she needed a paper graded or something reviewed or explained - otherwise she worked on her own. Sometimes I felt guilty as I had planned to read and discuss with her ... She was basically much happier with this solution than with anything else we have done. She has told me now that she likes it so much that she has college teachers and I can just be her mom. She shares everything with me - something I wasn't sure would happen when she was in high school.
Perhaps some courses at college would help - especially in areas where you think he might need more guidance. I think you said that you have a really active homeschool group where your son has some friends - a commitment to regular participation, even if it means driving and carting littles is sometimes really worth it.
I hope these ideas help - and I'm happy to share more details if you think it would help - just PM me. Know that your discernment process will be in our prayers.
Janet
One other thing she really did not like : we kept bouncing around from one thing to another, she just wanted something and for us to stick with it. This was a source of angst that we really didn't realize until after we had actually stuck with Kolbe for a while - then she identified that as one reason she liked her last years of homeschooling better. Of course, one of the reasons that I could stick with Kolbe is because I could change whatever I wanted  or needed to do to fill those other intangible needs.
We did not have any sort of Catholic co-op or support. There were Protestant co-ops that many Catholics joined and my dd wanted us to let her do (we had our own convictions and reasons for not doing this) but in the end we've spoken to those who have done these and, as Catholics, these folks are still outsiders in the co-op. The bottom line was that my dd needed to feel a sense of belonging - we didn't fit in in our parish (as homeschoolers and NFP teachers we were prejudged, the Catholic homeschoolers were too divided over non-essential matters and primarily only had younger children at functions as the olders were in schools and with these we felt either judged as "too Catholic" or "not Catholic enough" and none of us had much of a sense of belonging anywhere. Once we accepted this as God's call for this stage in our life and just started trying to make the best of it, things did open up. It was very difficult for my dd - but we now see many beautiful fruits from this and our so proud of the beautiful young woman she is becoming.
Is there any way for your son to play football while still homeschooling. Some homeschooling dads here pulled together and did form several homeschool sports teams (baseball, softball, soccer and basketball) with ability to compete against other teams - usually involving traveling to get adequate competition. Sometimes we made decisions to sacrifice (financially and wear and tear and time wise) to do certain things because the needs of our dd were so great.
I tried to keep very close tabs - but in ways where I wasn't just hanging out. So I did things like volunteer to work in the orchestra library (mostly taping and copying music and labeling it with the property of ... stamp. I knew exactly what was going on, but I wasn't in the room breathing down her neck, either and not visible. (I had concerns more about a young girl in this part of town at night than trusting her - she was always trustworthy and obedient - but not letting her do some things made her feel as if I didn't trust her, so having a reason to be there helped alleviate this concern of hers).
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esperanza
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teachingmyown wrote:
I have a real problem decision-making. Even small decisions can throw me into a downward spiral. So when the stakes are high, I get paralyzed. |
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I pray you will find a decision that you can feel confidently convicted with, friend. I have been there many times.
__________________
In His Peace,
Tammy Gonzalez in VA
dh-Johnny
mom to Tara-'85, Noelle-'88, Jeremy-'91, Elizabeth-'93, Emma-'96, Dominic-'99, Gabriel-'01, Elijah-03
and Jacinta-06
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Jan 10 2007 at 9:14pm | IP Logged
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Molly,
Please know you're in my prayers, as always. I can understand all of your worries and concerns. Janet has shared so many good ideas...I'm not in a position to offer good advice (my son loves homeschooling) but I think any teen boy can relate to feelings of loneliness and wanting to maximize time with friends, even if it means being trapped in a classroom. I know my son is really suffering from loneliness right now, and I'm struggling to find a way to connect him with good peer groups.
I do think switching to Kolbe won't substantially change things. I looked seriously at their high school program and decided my son would go on strike. (Seton is just not him, either.) We'd used Kolbe when we started homeschooling, but it's just too rigorous for my son right now. (I used High School of Your Dreams and the local school system's requirements to design a program.)
You're right, any teen determined to find his own path will find it, but you don't have to give in and abandon your principles even if he wants to do this. In the end he will respect you more if you maintain a steady course. He wants to know where you stand, that I'm sure of.
Please know you're not alone...and you have my prayers every day. Even if things don't go well at first, please don't give up. I've seen some pretty amazing miracles happen!
__________________
Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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BrendaPeter
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| Posted: Jan 10 2007 at 9:24pm | IP Logged
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Dear Molly,
Just wondering if it would be practical for him to take some time off just to read & discover what he really enjoys & for bonding time with the family? This may be from leftfield but it sounds like you both need a break.
Praying!!
__________________
Blessings,
Brenda (mom to 6)
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Lavenderfields
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| Posted: Jan 10 2007 at 11:03pm | IP Logged
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Dearest Molly,
I know you don't feel like you have much time for making decisions, but one question that comes to mind is, was is easier or better when he was in public school before? Where the friends he made the type of people you would want as friend for him? Was he able to have self control when he was with those friends? If you decide to send him back to the public school, it will be the same. You will be faced with all the same issues you faced before.
Janet has some really good ideas and I hope and pray that you will find an answer in these posts. I will pray and Rosary for you and your son.
God Bless
Robynn
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StephanieA
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| Posted: Jan 11 2007 at 4:11pm | IP Logged
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Here might go the tomatoes, but kids can thrive outside homeschool ;)
I am learning some very important lessons about family dynamics, homeschooling, and personalities as I age.
Seton would not have worked with us with any of our 3 teenaged boys and none are classically-motivated, although we have dabbled in the classics (Latin, logic, etc.)...and me more than anyone  And they all NEED sports. I wrote NEED, because for us, it's a need.
Charlie has the added "burden" of being the oldest and you have the problem of him being the oldest. It is sad sometimes (I know) because they set the tone many times in the family. Right now as I type my 17 year old is aggravating (AGAIN) my 4 daughters who are yelling bloody murder. Our oldest is working (thank goodness).
The 15 year old teen boy is laughing at the commotion.
The answer is not Kolbe, Seton, or whatever, but to get these guys SO busy that they can't think to do anything but what they are suppose to do. I disagree with letting them do "nothing" for a while because I have done this, and it doesn't work. The second one became depressed and the older one couldn't keep himself constructively active. In other words, he aggravated his siblings and really wasn't a cheerful, happy kid. That said, I love to stay active and busy too to a certain extent. As a teen, a certain level of inactivity would have equally frustrated me.
My guys need to know what to do. I truly hope this is a stage, but regardless, it is the truth for now. They do motivate themselves partially, but I need motivation more like 80%, not 45%. I will have more one-on-one time again later, but not with 7 kids and a baby overdue. Ten years now will look a lot different, more like 10 years ago, except with older kids instead of younger ones.
Charlie needs a male mentor- now where do we find these????? A music teacher, for us, worked for a while. Some kids find it with coaches. He also needs to keep busy. If he is willing to do AP courses and lots of them, play sports, keep his grades up, take the ACT and get XYZ score, take a part-time job, etc. etc. You could keep him busy enough that a social life isn't an option. We have "pushed" the 19 year-old into this this semester. Is this perfect? No, but I will tell you that already I am seeing a more happy, well-adjusted, and movitated kid. HE needed not to be able to think WHAT to do, but just to do it. He now smiles, interacts (in a good way), etc. Now this kind of schedule wouldn't work totally with #2, but he is not busy enough as we speak....obviously. Next week he begins a college math class though and studying for the GED outside the house. I have given him 3 more days to CLEP out of a course than he was suppose to do in December. I will call and make the appointment for the test today. That way he will feel a little pressure to study this weekend.
There is no perfect solution...homeschool or not. But sometimes, we really have to evaluate what we can handle. I thought college courses would be THE answer, but it is only partially the answer to our course of action. But it is getting us through this trying time with teen boys that most times, I am proud of.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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StephanieA
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| Posted: Jan 11 2007 at 4:31pm | IP Logged
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An addendum...
Why are some kids like this? I think because some need more affirmation than we are able to provide. When a kid needs something tangeable to pin "pride" on, what does he have in the homeschool? Grades really mean nothing. When my oldest came home from work and received compliments galore on his customer relations, quick learning ability, and then was tranferred to a better position all in one week, he had tangeable success. In college classes, an "A" means something, especially when you are in high school. My 15 year old teen boy scored the first points in his basketball game over the weekend. He was still on an emotional high on Monday and school went fantastically quickly and efficently for him that day and really up to today.
(I guess we will have to wait for his next game :)
Seriously though, while I have downplayed grades, external rewards, etc. in homeschool, at some point, for some kids, something is needed other than internal self-satisfaction. They need external affirmation. Our goal is to make sure this affirmation comes from a good, moral source (and not from acting-out teens).
Historically teen boys had jobs or studied their hearts out in classical schools. They weren't home playing Legos like my 2 teens are now....thank goodness, they are leaving the girls alone :)
In fact, it is now picture-perfect. Six kids downstairs all happily interacting. But I know this can't go on 16 hours a day. Some guys just need more structure.
Please don't think I am putting down homeschooling. I am not, otherwise, I wouldn't be doing it
I realize the positive aspects and the negative ones. For us, full-time outside school isn't an option for several solid reasons, but compensations have to be made for us to fill in some of the negatives aspects of homeschooling our teen guys.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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ALmom
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Stephanie - you hit on two things I noticed about the needs of my dd that had more trouble with homeschooling - she really needed activity and lots of it and she needed affirmation.
When she was so involved that I was getting dizzy - she was so happy - she got more school done, and her prayer life improved, too. She also needed affirmation from outsiders. Both of those came together for us with orchestra and music. Still homeschooling, as wonderful as it is, is not perfect and is particularly difficult for some personalities. It helps our children when we don't try to only paint it in glowing terms. Homeschooling was the only option for us for some very solid reasons - but no tomatoes here, Stephanie! Sometimes you have to get mighty creative and the rest of the family has to make significant sacrifices to make the compensations that you are talking about. When we made those, things improved and it was very, very worth the sacrifice. What you use for school does make a difference and can either help or hurt the situation - but it isn't the full answer.
Janet
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StephanieA
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Amen, Janet! My oldest can make me dizzy with what he needs to do too to make him content and cheerful. His prayer life improves also when he is busy. He made time for confession twice this month. But I can't say I wasn't the same way as a teen. I went into overdrive and then took a semester in college to nanny on the East Coast and settle down. You're right - creativity is the answer. I didn't use Seton because just looking over the entire curriculum at the conferences turned me off. I use some of their materials off and on and really like what I have chosen. But I use everyone's elses materials too , but, for me, this is 1/2 the fun of homeschooling. I enjoy "designing my curriculum". But again, you're right....this isn't the full answer.
I have decided to plan for the immediate future, for the most part. Even college plans very often change - after they get there and experience it all. I have seen this happen time and time again. Parents sweat and toil over this monumental decision only to have the child happy there for a year or so. So I have a more open mind about a lot of things just from seeing what others have experienced. Sometimes one has to try it and pray, hoping that you have made the best moral decision for your family.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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BrendaPeter
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StephanieA wrote:
The answer is not Kolbe, Seton, or whatever, but to get these guys SO busy that they can't think to do anything but what they are suppose to do. I disagree with letting them do "nothing" for a while because I have done this, and it doesn't work. The second one became depressed and the older one couldn't keep himself constructively active. |
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Stephanie,
You make some excellent points. Our society has really changed & we have to remind ourselves how busy boys in former years were, particularly with physical labor.
StephanieA wrote:
Charlie needs a male mentor- now where do we find these????? A music teacher, for us, worked for a while. Some kids find it with coaches. He also needs to keep busy. If he is willing to do AP courses and lots of them, play sports, keep his grades up, take the ACT and get XYZ score, take a part-time job, etc. etc. You could keep him busy enough that a social life isn't an option. We have "pushed" the 19 year-old into this this semester. Is this perfect? No, but I will tell you that already I am seeing a more happy, well-adjusted, and movitated kid. HE needed not to be able to think WHAT to do, but just to do it. He now smiles, interacts (in a good way), etc. |
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Our 2 oldest (boys) go to a local friary once/week to help out with projects. They come home dirty & exhausted BUT they love it! Often their friends also go so it also fills a social need. The friar (Father) in charge of them is a modern-day St. John Bosco - very firm but kind. My boys know that they won't be able to go to the friary if they don't do their chores or finish their schoolwork, so it's a great motivation. Boys, as they mature, really benefit from these outside male relationships, as Stephanie pointed out.
No tomato throwing from this end!
EDIT - Oh my goodness! - I was sleepy when I typed this! Had to change IS a modern-day St. John Bosco from ISN'T!!! So glad he doesn't read this
__________________
Blessings,
Brenda (mom to 6)
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Bookswithtea
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Stephanie, I am saving your words of wisdom. My 13 yr old ds is driving me crazy. I've been feeling weird because so many programs, books, etc suggest giving our children more say in their studies. My ds seems to do better when I just tell him, "here's what you are doing, go do it now." He doesn't like having to make these kinds of decisions and the few times I have let him try have been near disasters.  He doesn't know himself well enough to choose well. I'm going to talk with dh about how we can fill up more of his day. Poor kid...in some ways, I feel for him. He has three younger sisters and his only brother is 12 yrs younger (under 2). The Lord planned our family and I had 2 miscarriages between him and my second, but sometimes I wonder what God was thinking...
__________________
Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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teachingmyown
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| Posted: Jan 11 2007 at 10:35pm | IP Logged
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Thanks ladies! I am trying to digest all that you have said and try to piece it all together.
Brenda- Charlie is a very social, energetic guy, with very little interest in academics at this point, and less interest in bonding with his siblings. Don't get me wrong, he is usually a good big brother and they love him, but with over four years between him and the next child, a girl, he just doesn't feel a lot of connection. My other kids could definitely unschool, taking that time to discover what they enjoy, Charlie would play x-box and lift weights non-stop.
Janet- all of your points are great. I am reading and re-reading them. I am still not convinced that homeschooling will work for him, but you have provided me with some great help especially if we continue with that route. Your point about your own indecision and jumping around really struck me. If any one thing could I point to and say "there is my biggest mistake" it would be all the jumping around and going back and forth. I have tried every program out there just about, usually more than one per year. He has been in and out of school a few times, usually starting in October or November when I changed my mind about homeschooling him. I even took him back out of school in 4th grade in November because I had been listening to Sally Clarkson tapes while driving him to school and convinced myself that he was better off at home with me! I have spent this whole year wrestling with indecision. All he wants to know is what is going to happen. And I can't tell him. At this point he would probably accept just about anything as long as he didn't have to hang about waiting for me to decide.
Stephanie- you really pegged many of the problems we are facing. Boredom is really the biggest. I am thinking that even public school might work if he is literally too busy to get in trouble. His first semester in school last year he played football. He came home from football, ate dinner and passed out for the night. If I can keep him that exhausted all year, throw in other sports, a job and AP classes, will we be able to lessen the impact of the peer influence at school? I don't really know.
I half to laugh at your description of the teasing and screaming sisters. That is what we live through when Charlie is bored. He is obnoxious, and won't quit until he has us all yelling. 
Robynn- thanks for the reminder of what I dealt with last year. He has two really good friends. One has very strict parents and couldn't get into trouble if he wanted to, but I don't think he would if he could. The other has shown that he is willing to go along with Charlie, or vice versa, but he is also a nice kid who I think overall is a good friend. It is all the other "friends" at school that worry me, especially the girls. He has been pretty much under "house arrest" for over a month, leaving the property only to play football with the neighborhood guys. All computer and phone privileges have been suspended. And it seems to be working as far as keeping the outside influences at bay. If he goes back into an environment where "everyone is doing it" is the general opinion of students and adults alike, will even keeping busy shield him from becoming even more numb to the moral relativism than he already is?
Sigh.
What I want for him is to have those fun moments with good friends, messing around in the lunchroom, sitting in the back of the schoolbus wit the guys, playing football and baseball and going to basketball games. I want him to be challenged academically and maybe even discover something he is interested in.
But most of all, I want this kid to go to Heaven. I want him to form a Catholic world-view and to be strong and confident in his Faith when he goes to college.  I don't know why those two sets of wants can't seem to go together in today's world.
Tammy- thanks for your prayers and supports. I know you know where I am with all this. You have been such a good friend.
Nancy- thanks for your prayers, too. I look forward to my younger kids as they reach these teen years because they do love homeschooling. Charlie has never liked it. You are blessed that your son enjoys it.
Books- It is something to ponder when we look at the make-up of our family. If I had just had another boy after Charlie and then all the girls... But God has His reasons, I am sure.
Okay, back to pondering.
__________________
In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
Remembering Today
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KellyJ
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| Posted: Jan 12 2007 at 7:15am | IP Logged
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Molly, if homeschooling Charlie is still an option and you're still interested in MODG, why not get a different consultant than your friend? I am not surprised that Seton isn't going over well from what I've heard from others about the work load for high school.
Regardless of what you decide, I am praying for you. Such a tough decision.
__________________
KellyJ
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folklaur
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| Posted: Jan 12 2007 at 12:10pm | IP Logged
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Is there a way to take a few classes at the school, or just sports? We can do that here, I don't know if it is an option for you.
According to my dd17, who only attends our local public school for band and occasionally another class like Science, the biggest problem isn't the classes, it is LUNCHTIME, and the time between classes. But lunchtime is the worst.
And even being there for just ONE class this semester -- she still got sucked into the "DRAMA" of these other kids. And most of the kids in band are the good kids. But, still -- drama and angst everywhere. If they don't have real angst, sometimes I am convinced they invent it.
And even in the AP classes, she sees these kids CONSTANTLY text messaging on their phones during class(my poor deprived daughter doesn't have her own cell phone - when she needs one she has to borrow mine. And I don't have text messaging.However, she does have a job and seems to have no desire to spend her own money on a phone, so I guess she doesn't *really* want one too badly.)
I don't really have any good advice. My dd17 has been a handfull, and I know all too well the idea that if I "just find the right curriculum, it will work." The curriculum hasn't really made a difference, in all honesty. The problems we were experiencing were more in our relationship and dynamic, and didn't much change whether she was attending school, or using Seton, or MODG, or whatever. Although, ( and this is hard to admit and very embarrassing for me to say) when I sent her off for a few classes at school, I at least got a little relief from the arguing and tension. But that wasn't really fixing the problem underneath, KWIM?
However, she just took her PSAT. And she did not do nearly as well as she thought she was going to. That has been more of a wake-up call to her than all my nagging, badgering, lecturing, talking, etc.
15 was hard age!!! 16, I am sorry to admit, wasn't too much better. 17 is already seeing many improvements (hooray!  )
I will be praying you find peace with a decision.
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StephanieA
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>>her off for a few classes at school, I at least got a little relief from the arguing and tension. But that wasn't really fixing the problem underneath, KWIM? >>>
But can we really fix the problem? I have come to think that sometimes time fixes some problems on its own. Maturity and interspection on the child's part has to take place first....and sadly some mistakes.
<<<However, she just took her PSAT. And she did not do nearly as well as she thought she was going to. That has been more of a wake-up call to her than all my nagging, badgering, lecturing, talking, etc. >>>>
This is exactly what I am talking about when I say outside accountability and affirmation. ACT scores, PSAT etc. are what they are and some kids are going to respond to this. (Unfortunately some don't.) But it gets us "off the hook" to be mothers for a while, rather than teachers. And sometimes it is just nice to be Mom  and to let others give out reality checks.
My oldest son learned (I hope) that he can't put off signing up for classes. He didn't get into what he really needed this semester as a consequence. I encouraged him to do so over break a few times, but finally decided he needed to learn the consequences of his inaction. He went into meltdown after seeing all his classes full. I think he has learned an important lesson that all my nagging could not have accomplished.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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ALmom
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| Posted: Jan 12 2007 at 2:27pm | IP Logged
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I do think that the young folks needing affirmation, are more vulnerable to peer pressure. When my dd had such a longing to belong, somewhere - you could almost visibly see the pull. The needs to feel like you belong are real, very real but the bottom line is that to truely belong in the parish, in the school, whereever we went, would have meant being less than true to our faith, to God, etc. It wouldn't matter where she went, she would not have belonged unless she compromised her values. I did have the advantage of being able to talk about my high school (public school) and how alone I was because I was different. The lonliness really is not the exclusive domain of homeschooling.
No matter how good the kid, the temptations can get overwhelming - and that is where parents must discern and provide the safety nets that their child needs, through strictly enforced rules, family policies, etc. We are obligated to avoid the near occassions of sin. A lot of these decisions are matters of prudence - looking realistically at your own childs tendencies, personalities, etc. While we want to meet real needs as best we can, we do not want to blindly try to please them. We are trying to find what is best for them, not necessarily what they think they want - and I know you are agonizing so much because you are trying to figure out what this child really needs and no one else can really tell you. I remember wishing God would just shout at me and say - do xyz or give me a dot to dot to follow with this child. They are still young and don't always clearly know what they really need, though they can usually express pretty well what they think has failed. I clearly understand the caution about not having them decide on their own. I really do believe our teens are more secure if they see us with definite convictions that we hold to and insist on - but there is a difference in letting them decide and eliciting specifics from them. When my dd said, "homeschooling stinks", I wouldn't let it go at that. What exactly was it that she didn't like. She could not always express herself, but I could hazard some guesses based on personality and she would either affirm or deny my suspicion. I didn't always agree with her - ie homeschooling stinks because you stifle me (we had some strict rules for her best interest - but I could direct the conversation to something I could do - would it help if you had more opportunities to be with people your own age? Ie, I understood, "you are stifling me" to mean that there was some general angst that she couldn't quite peg and the easiest thing to do was blame it on us since we didn't let her do some sleepovers and some of the girls bonded here and excluded her since she couldn't be a part of this(we had good reasons for our rule which we could not discuss with her in entirety). It was having these kinds of conversations in a balanced way - but usually I waited to initiate them when dad was around to guide us both. Sometimes we would suggest that we all go off and think about this a bit and re visit the conversation in a few days. This worked when my dh and I needed to discuss something or when we felt things were spiralling into a pity party(either mine or hers). We also discovered sleep deprivation would often bring on the moodiness (in her and I) and tried to address this as well. This is what helped us narrow in on what would really help us. She knew we were going to have final say in what was done, but we were trying to hear her legitimate complaints (there are plenty of just, something is wrong so everything is wrong type things that are not legitimate complaints as such and we would listen but as parents, sort through some of this as best we could). The key was for us (me especially) not to get emotionally wrapped around what was beyond our control anyways or try to psychoanalyze every contributing factor or find blame. Our focus had to consistently stay with - "what is in our power to do to make this better - and sometimes the only thing in our power was our own attitude - but sometimes there are real needs that you must attempt to address while praying that God will open doors." I also had to learn when to just let dd steam, when to stop the pity party and when to really try to get to the bottom of it. We could acknowledge that there was some lonliness - and some things that we couldn't do but we were able to direct her in the direction that was most likely to meet her needs. In our case, anything but homeschooling would have been a terrible decision for this child. I'm not saying this to say that you must go this way - I don't know your child and family as you do. I do remember agonizing over things, the tension that an unhappy child brings to the family dynamics and feeling like you are walking a blind alley and you are walking by faith. Many days I met my dh with the statement - "I resign, you'll have to find another teacher. I've just had it!" I did find that having my dh take the lead, took the bite out of a lot of this. We could discuss privately between us, hash through what we thought, come to a decision (and his insistence was what would help me stay the course) and he would inform dd. It took some of the tension away and relieved me of the stress of my indecisiveness. Most of the time, I was never really, really sure we were headed right - but I could rehash with dh and he kept us on track.
In our case, we also had a 4 year difference in age and though both were girls, they were and are very different girls with no real common interests. I had a miscarriage between them. They are close now. When the oldest was in high school, there were squabbles between them. The oldest wanted an artistic, beautiful looking room. The younger wanted to strew her stuffed animals about willy - nilly and hung up curtains in odd places, etc. without regard to color coordination. Our oldest wanted to do hair and make-up, our youngest was sword fighting with her brothers and climbing trees ... It did make things harder - for both and dh sometimes felt like a job description of UN negotiator was rather apt. My oldest didn't seem that interested in academics - but she did take off later, much later when we were with Kolbe because it challenged her to think rather than the mindless repetetion of stuff (this despite the fact that she was so much uninterested in reading). She also became interested once she discovered a goal - she wanted college for music. Strewing did not work with this older child (it works like a charm with her younger sister). With the older, she always acted like she didn't like what she was doing academically - but at some point as her confidence grew, she did begin to like it. Her confidence was affected by a lot of my jerking around and also by her sense of isolation. I couldn't guarantee that she would get affirmation - and many times I felt for her as she worked very hard, but for many years she just didn't get noticed. (She was a late starter in music - actually taking up violin was a desperate attempt to be a part of some group - in her case at that point she might have felt like any group would do - It also helped that we were blithely ignorant of how most thought it impossible for someone to start violin at 13 and actually make it to the high school orchestra. I also felt that often our local parish situation undermined what we were trying to pass on and those liberal minded who would praise everything the teens did, would comment to dd on the dislike of her selection of music and never compliment her on anything. I have had to struggle with my own anger as well as the hurt to my dd. This really turned her off to church music and she wouldn't touch it for many years after that, though at 11 that was why she was taking piano lessons - to move to organ as she got older and do organ for church. She also had to write that homeschooling paper for Seton (at the time they allowed a more open ended topic as I told my dd she could write from either point of view as long as she had evidence and considered the evidence from both sides - maybe Seton changed the assignment after they got my dd paper ) I was often her only fan club. I also remember feeling a bit like we were either "too Catholic" to be accepted in the parish setting and some homeschoolers and "not Catholic enough" to be accepted by some of the homeschooling families whose children might have had enough in common with my dd to help her over the hump. Perhaps this wasn't true and just our own perception because it is hard to seem different - and I just couldn't buy into the idea that girls should Never go to college, nor did I feel like it would be productive at that point to get into a fight over wearing dresses (I prefer it, but do not have a conviction that there is a point in mandating rather than encouraging), nor did I feel like we could simply abandon parish participation altogether and just attend Mass at shrines and hope our children would receive the Sacraments somehow. We made the decision to try to work with our parish as far as we could without failing in our duty to our children. I didn't have a problem being friends with those who made different decisions but it just never happened. Then out of the blue our dd made concert master and suddenly she was being asked to be a part of chamber groups, give performances, etc.... She got her break - but it was all out of our control, really (beyond her being passionate enough to fill her time with practice because she was lonely). It helped a lot and it would have been nice to have been able to see this in the midst of our struggles. At the same time, it was the very struggles that we both endured that were so valuable in preparation for where God seems to have placed her now. It was an opportunity to forge a relationship even as we didn't always see eye to eye. It helped my dd gain the maturity and courage to stand seemingly alone in the midst of a secular environment - and be different. At 13, she was obviously pulled by peer pressure (even when we guarded against too much), now she has no fear of being different and has developed a tact and grace that makes this integrity not come across as goody goody and is not exclusive and provides so much opportunity for her to evangelize through who she is. God formed her in the very midst of the suffering and He did a much better job than anything I could have manipulated - though at the time and in the midst of it, it seemed like we must be making some huge mistake.
I will second that there seems to be a shifting age - the angst for us started close to 13, was really intense through about 15/16 when we saw some improvement and was much better by 17 and great by the time she graduated. Our second dd, so far, seems to have skipped this whole tension entirely and at 15 we have yet to struggle - but she does have one like minded friend to be with and she is more of a homebody, arts and crafts, reader, introspective person with less need for the large group settings and she doesn't seem to need the affirmation as much. We are also in a somewhat better parish situation, but still don't really feel a part that much. Our oldest son is just about to turn 13 and I'm not sure yet what will happen. We've been looking to find things that he can become passionate about - but his interests aren't as clear cut and that makes it harder. We are trying to give him opportunities to do things and see if anything grabs his interest, before the serious angst hits, if it does. He is not athletic at all, due to his vision problems and that may prove to be a disadvantage for him. However, a coop with a PE class has really blessed us and this child worked and worked so that he didn't stand out skill wise. All we can do is our very best, and then we do really have to leave the rest to God. There are all kinds of things beyond our control and God in His providence knows these things.
I guess one thing that I can do now that we are at the point of having graduated our oldest (the one who intensely disliked homeschooling for most of her high school), is begin to see the payoff. I hope it helps to know that our children may not always like what we do decide on and it may be a long time before any of that is appreciated - and also, you can recover from mistakes. I told my dd up front that it was a disservice to her all the jumping around we did and I apologized, acknowledging that I was learning too and since she was the oldest, she suffered the brunt of my learning curve. Once we decided the last time, we stuck with it and just jury rigged it to make it work - the flexibility was built into the program. Be gentle with yourself too - and don't dwell on any mistakes. Our prayers are with you as you discern - and wish we could drop an answer from the sky as I can so identify with the angst of making a decision.
Janet
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: Help me think through this, again
