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amyable
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| Posted: March 15 2012 at 8:14pm | IP Logged
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When I went to school (in the dinosaur ages  ) we had earth science in 9th, then biology, chem, and physics (calc based or not, depending on student) in that order.
Now I hear that a physics type class is good for ninth, then chem, THEN bio since biology is so much more biochemistry based these days. (  <-- and I was a biology major!  )
Anyway, I was wondering what any of you plan to do.
... AND I want ask for advice on my dd. She struggles with math (is dyslexic with other LDs - smart but struggles) and so I was thinking of doing "conceptual" physics, conceptual chem, then biology.
Then today I found this great link to a page with Exploring the Way Life Works in pdf, tests, links to lesson plans, etc to go with it, and I'm inspired to do biology next year with dd.
Or really, I have no idea what to do, LOL! Does it really matter for a kid that won't go into science and won't go to a top school??
I'm tempted to combine my 14yo and my 12you and just teach to the 12yo level come what may (which may turn out to be a level somewhere between the two kids)...although then I might not use that AWESOME LINK above for 5 years and then who knows where in the world on my computer it will be??
High school science is NOT something I can unschool, nor would dh go for that in any way.
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guitarnan
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Amy, I've read about this new order for taking science classes in high school, and I guess it makes logical sense, but we have chosen to ignore it. (Yes, this is why I homeschool!  )
DD (grade 9) is taking Earth Sci, then Bio, then Chem (I think) and then I am guessing she will want an advanced biology or marine biology class. The whole college plan hinges on whether she can hack dissecting real specimens.
My son (now in college) did Earth Sci, Bio, Chem and Physics. He is not a science major, and is finishing up at our community college (where he has taken meteorology and geology as his two required science courses). In retrospect, he probably did not need chemistry, but he didn't know what he wanted to study until the end of his freshman year of college, so we were trying to prepare for a wide range of potential majors.
For your older daughter, I would suggest starting with something she likes/wants to study, especially if you are introducing labs. I think as long as you do biology some time during high school (since in our state it is a high school requirement), the order doesn't matter too much. 9th grade bio is fine - many schools teach that way.
Combining is probably okay, too, as long as you have a lot of labs (for a lab science class) and aim a bit more toward the high school level than the jr. high level.
(P. S. We did virtual dissections for my son's bio labs, after we did a bunch of microbiology, genetics and plant dissection labs...and no one thought that was odd at all.)
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amyable
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Thanks Nancy!
Tell your daughter she is wise to think about this now. Like I said, I was a biology major - wanted to go into neuroscience. Finally got to the point in the second semester of my junior year of college where we were doing surgeries on live animals, then "post mortems."
Decided to become a speech-language pathologist.
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JodieLyn
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Amy from what I've seen the theory is great.. but the available products hasn't caught up yet.. so physics programs are geared toward the 12th grade and taking into account the level of math possible for that age.. rather than for those taking it younger and perhaps simultaneous with the "required" math.
Unless someone knows where to find a program that is geared for the "physics first", I don't see how I could do it with my current highschooler.. though by the time we get to the younger kids we might be able to.. but the question then is will it be worth it to switch if I already have the programs.
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: March 15 2012 at 9:09pm | IP Logged
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ah ha.. I knew there was a thread with Physics First discussed.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
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DominaCaeli
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| Posted: March 15 2012 at 11:34pm | IP Logged
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guitarnan wrote:
| For your older daughter, I would suggest starting with something she likes/wants to study, especially if you are introducing labs. I think as long as you do biology some time during high school (since in our state it is a high school requirement), the order doesn't matter too much. 9th grade bio is fine - many schools teach that way. |
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I agree with Nancy. When I graduated high school (ten years ago) the order was Biology (9th), Chem (10th), Physics (11th), and then either Advanced Biology or Physiology, depending on one's interest. I know that the high schools around here still teach it in that order. I do not think the colleges care about order at all, though, so I would teach it as you like.
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SallyT
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Agreed. I've also read versions of suggested college-prep courses of study (like the one for the umbrella school we belonged to in TN) which stipulated that you had to have *one* credit of science that was either biology, chem, or physics, and the rest could be other sciences: earth science, astronomy, whatever.
I don't think colleges care about the order, but a very good exercise for a rising high-schooler is to research colleges she might be interested in applying to -- mostly to give her a general vision of where she might want to be and what she might see herself doing, but also to look at what they require/recommend by way of high-school preparation. (It's actually a great exercise for a 7th grader -- they could do it together).
For my own rising 9th grader we're planning to do life science, biology, chemistry, physics as our science sequence for high school. I'd planned to start with biology, as he's already done quite a bit of life science, but he can access classes on the campus where my husband teaches, and we don't think he's quite ready for Bio 101. So (we hope) he'll be taking the intro-level course with lab instead. And on from there.
Sally
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Angie Mc
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Amy, my children aren't going into the sciences either.
At the high school level, 3 credits are required in AZ, but content is not specified.
For college bound, here is an example of meeting ASU Science Requirements. My dd did Biology at home then went on to do 2 labs at the local community college. We're doing the same thing with my 16yo ds.
Either way, order doesn't matter here.
Love,
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KackyK
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We are doing physical science first, bio, chem then physics. My dh has a phd in physics and thinks that doing it first is crazy...but hey, to each his own! And I agree that materials haven't caught up. A friend of mine whose kids attend an new Catholic hs who has adopted this have had a bit of hard time in the physics class in the 9th grade. In fact, my dh has done some tutoring for them, seen their texts and thought it was totally at an inappropriate level for the 9th grade (he said definitely 12th or even college level). So when choosing physics first, be careful of the level of book you find for sure!
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Barbara C.
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The state requirement when I was in high school (class of 1995) was 2 science credits. My Catholic high school normally had everyone take Physical Science (9th), Biology (10th), and Chemistry (11th), and then anything else was optional.
Because I took Algebra I in 8th grade and was taking Geometry as a Freshman they skipped me out of Physical Science and straight to Biology followed by Chemistry. The guidance counselor suggested I take a 3rd science just to beef up my transcript...I took AP Biology as a senior (but I didn't take the AP test for multiple reasons).
I never had a physics class in high school. In college I took astronomy (as my lab course), geology, and basic biology (non-lab). I don't remember the biology really being any more intensive than my high school courses.
Currently my oldest is in 3rd grade, but I plan to start working with her to plot out her high school courses in 8th grade. I'm going to plan on three credits with some form of Biology or Chemistry as two of the three. When I say some form, I mean that she doesn't necessarily have to "general" biology.
For instance, if she were interested in a subsection of biology (such as marine biology or dendrology or reproductive science) we could try to come up with a course of study about that particular area. I've heard that a non-traditional specialization can make a homeschooler stand-out on college transcripts as well as make things more interesting for the student.
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Angel
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| Posted: March 21 2012 at 7:58pm | IP Logged
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Ok, are you ready for my weirdness, Amy? After you see what we've been doing, I hope you'll feel confident that you can do whatever the heck you want. Or at least you can feel confident that someone else is completely ignoring all the rules so whatever you do with your kids can't be that bad.
Anyway...
I gave my 9th grade ds a credit in paleontology last year. This year he decided he wanted to study astronomy, so that what's he did. I think by summer time he'll have earned a whole credit in that, too. Along the way, he's been reading and researching (and watching) a bunch of stuff that I would categorize as physics. Definitely conceptual physics. I'm writing that down, too. I have no idea how it will end up, but at this point he almost has enough of that for a half a credit. I bought Paul Hewitt's Conceptual Physics High School book and we've used it here and there. You need algebra for this book, but not trig. It's not like a 12th grade, math-heavy physics book. I would not put your dd through a traditional physics program if math is a serious problem. I would definitely go the conceptual route.
I don't know where we'll go from here. I've talked with my ds about the need for biology, chemistry, and physics on a high school transcript, but... I am not going to change the way we educate for a transcript. If he wants to study microbiology or ecology instead of standard biology, then that's what we'll do. If he wants to do chemistry next year, I will try to swallow my fear (I so hated chemistry in high school!) and that's what we'll do.
I find it very tempting in high school to succumb to the fear that if we're not like everybody else, he won't get into college. However, I've read and heard enough getting-into-college stories at this point that I think that fear is probably false. Anyway, I think that you should probably follow your nose. I wouldn't do a physics-first program if I thought my kid would hate it, just as I wouldn't do a biology first program if I thought my kid would hate it (or would not do well with it, in any case.)
Just my $.02...
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Angel
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| Posted: March 21 2012 at 8:02pm | IP Logged
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Oh, and -- serial posting here -- I should add that my 7th grader is doing Theresa's marine biology this year (with actual dissections) along with a heavy dose of natural history (in general) and ornithology (in particular). So, yes, my oldest did set a precedent which I am following with subsequent children. 
(I should also say that my two oldest are very independent and interested in science, and if they weren't, I would probably be doing marine biology with both of them!)
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Mackfam
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I would definitely combine the 14 yo and the 12 yo, although at this point, they should be pretty independent. It could really help with labs though. My 15 yo and 11 yo work together and it works out well. My 15 yo enjoys Botany and Zoology.....and that's it for the sciences. She is NOT science passionate. My 11 yo is a different story. He IS science passionate, and though he's in 6th grade this year, he has no problem keeping up with dd's high school science. What does that mean for me in planning out HIS high school science?  Actually, a science passionate kid is pretty self-motivated and self-directed in science, and I think you'd be surprised how well science (even upper level science) unschools for a science passionate kid! Ok...but back to the non-science passionate kid....
Our 9th grade year ended up being classified as Physical Science for transcript purposes. We did a lot of earth science, some chemistry, and a little astronomy, AND a lot of physics. We used Flying Circus of Physics, which, similar to Angela's description of Paul Hewitt's book, is more conceptual, providing an engaging opportunity to begin to understand physics principles before we would get into the equations and trig behind why something works. I *could* have made an entire Physics year, taking half the year to work through Physics conceptually, and the other half to really focus on the math part, but I do not have a strong or passionate math student, and I knew this would not be the way to go for 9th grade science. An introduction to physics served us well in 9th grade though.
None of the science we did in the 9th grade year was enough to classify as full credit in a specific science discipline, so I just labeled it Physical Science, and it was a good year.
This 10th grade year we're doing Biology, and our Biology has a definite nod toward Natural History. Our first term was a good introduction to Biology and Micro, the second term focusing more on anatomy and then moving into Zoology, and our last term almost exclusively Botany. My daughter has really taken an interest in edible vs. poisonous plants and has spent a good deal of time reading and learning from Identifying and Harvesting Edible and Medicinal Plants. This IS an area she is passionate about, so even though I've planned out a minimum repertoire of reading, she reads well over and beyond that in scope, choosing additional books on her own to flesh out topics she's interested in. She's read enough that I could almost give a full credit in just Botany.
We have Exploring the Way Life Works, but we've only used it here and there. My dd doesn't care for it, though she does like the illustrations.
Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is just because we choose to name a high school course a broad/generic name -- like Biology -- we choose living books and explorations that are perhaps somewhat broad initially in order to provide an overview, but are ultimately areas of interest for the child. There is no way in the world you can cover every single topic in Physics or Biology....so why not provide a general sense of the topic, and use living books to really provide a depth and richness to understanding in areas that might be of particular interest. You absolutely do not have to use a text for high school science in order for it to be transcript-worthy, or fruitful/educational!
DO:
** Find out what your state requirements are for science on an academic transcript. You may only have to have 3 science courses with labs. Find out what you HAVE to have.
** Sit down with your kids and identify some areas they'd like to explore - this should give you a general direction to plan for.
** Don't be afraid to have reading come from living books and to have labs spring from living books as well.
** Consider naming your courses in generic, state recognizable names - like "Biology" - for transcript purposes.
** Allow the pursuit of Biology to continue in familiar (to you and the kids) educational ways.
** Keep very good and detailed booklists of books read for high school science.
That's my 2 cents.
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CatholicMommy
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| Posted: March 22 2012 at 4:56pm | IP Logged
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We're not there yet ourselves, and I took an entirely odd approach with my homeschooled sisters, but here are my thoughts (similar to above ideas):
1) is it ok to give 1/2 credits each year? so perhaps a half-credit for biology this year; then another 1/2 credit next year because the child was really more into astronomy for a semester?
2) Just track all sciences for a year or two at a time before "assigning credits" - then group things together. Perhaps it's general physical science like someone above said; or perhaps it's 1/2 credit in something more specific; then have the rest to lump together with something else later?
I personally find it so easy to rack up hours for a credit, it'd be laughable if it wasn't so sad. I'm much more of a mastery/experience person - if the student can carry on an intellectual conversation about the matter at hand AND apply it to their real lives when applicable, at a level that corresponds to the outcome of the course, then they've passed.
(In fact, I gained college credit for doing just that in several courses - it wasn't about the "time" it was about the experience and knowledge - I paid for my credits; met with the teachers, fulfilled any requirements they had, and earned the credit without attending class once).
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Mackfam
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CatholicMommy wrote:
1) is it ok to give 1/2 credits each year? so perhaps a half-credit for biology this year; then another 1/2 credit next year because the child was really more into astronomy for a semester?
2) Just track all sciences for a year or two at a time before "assigning credits" - then group things together. Perhaps it's general physical science like someone above said; or perhaps it's 1/2 credit in something more specific; then have the rest to lump together with something else later?
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You don't really HAVE to formally assign credits until a student completes high school. So, the answer to both your questions is yes. It would be fine to spend a half-year on Biology and pick it up the next year, and simply have a transcript reflect:
BIOLOGY I - 1 CREDIT
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Jen Mackintosh
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Mackfam
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| Posted: March 22 2012 at 6:45pm | IP Logged
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Ugh....sorry....somehow I hit post before I finished.
Anyway, I was just going to say that this is where good (even adequate) record keeping comes in. Keep book lists, lesson plans, and I find it helpful to have a planning transcript that I update at the end of each term. Having a record-keeping format you use that allows you to track topics/scientific areas of study can also be helpful. Don't overthink that - it doesn't have to be fancy or crazy-pretty-formatted....just a good checklist to record coverage. I use and really like the one in the back of Science Scope.
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Jen Mackintosh
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Elena
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For any of you who are considering CLEP tests for science I'd like to share. My son studied for the the Natural Science CLEP and did NOT pass. After that I did some investigating and talking to other CLEP and College Plus kids and they all said that because of the broad broad nature of Natural Science - they took the CLEP biology exam.
My son did sit for that and passed it. If any of you are planning to have the kids go the CLEP route for college credit, you might want to just keep that in mind.
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Barbara C.
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You might want to check out some of Cafi Cohen's books on putting together a high school transcript for college admissions.
I've only read her "And What About College?" (but I've reread it at least three times over the past five years). At some point I'll probably read her "Homeschoolers' College Admissions Handbook" and "Homeschooling the Teen Years". Hmmmm, may have to see if my library has those right now.
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Barbara
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Kristie 4
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In Canada we do all the sciences together until 11th- at which point I still did Physics, Bio and Chem both years (but I was going into Life Sciences at University). So in 9th we have a class that touches on all the disciplines- ditto in 10th. Then for 11th and 12th you take a class in each one. Looking at it from a homeschooling perspective it seems nuts in 11th and 12th- that is 3 full credits of science a year- YIKES!!
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amyable
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Thank you everyone - you have given me much to think about.
I think my biggest obstacle is my supposed need to fit things into little boxes for our umbrella school review at the end of the year.  I think I can get high school looking "good" (i.e. traditional on a transcript) by the end of the four years, but the in between time, not so much.
I'd be so upset if I got to the end of four years and messed dd's college chances up for life by doing something weird in science (  and ) This dd is dyslexic and so I feel I'm between a rock and a hard place - I need to *really* facilitate her chances to get into college, BUT at the same time I need to teach her in a way that sticks (which is non traditional). These things contradict and oppose each other! I also think the schools she could probably get into more easily (CC, lesser state schools) don't "get" homeschoolers, creative transcripts, etc and just want to see the plug and chug of traditonal PS. I'm sure I could be wrong about that. I need to work around what will most likely be bad SAT scores (if any).
I want to go away to a desserted island. With you ladies of course.
At this point I think we'll start with a biology-ish year. I was a bio major so I remember more of it, I can make it more fun and creative and facilitate that more easily than I could with physics, etc. Plus I'd love to read a good rockin' book about Watson and Crick or something.
Thanks again for your input.
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Amy
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: Order of science classes for high school
