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knowloveserve
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| Posted: Jan 24 2011 at 2:35pm | IP Logged
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Hi ladies,
A friend of mine asked for some feedback on a particular issue and I know you all would have some good thoughts on the topic. She is a classical homeschooling mother and has successfully implemented a rigorous couse load for her children. Her oldest will be going into 9th grade and she had planned on using many of the Great Books as the core of her curriculum plans. But someone gave her pause in her thinking and now she feels left at square one. She still wants a challenging curriculum but she wants to preserve her daughter's innocence also. This is what her other friend said:
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" In general, I would say that the texts for grade nine are not ones that I would choose for my daughter. Knowing your daughter a bit, I'd say the same thing. She is a lovely girl. You want her to stay that way. These texts are really heavy duty. They belong in a college level course and they require a wise and vigilant mentor. In my opinion, it is imprudent to visit such texts on a 13 or 14-year-old. While there is much to be said for reading original sources, with children of this age, it should only be done with careful adult oversight and lots of interaction.
A good alternative to the original texts might be children's versions of the same topics. There a number of good choices available. The difference between the adult version and the children's version is that all the distracting details (such as homosexuality, cutting off of penises, gruesome murder and mayhem, numerous examples of fornication, adultery and even incest--all presented without any moral frame of reference) have been edited out, and the good things--like the value of friendship, the joy of children, the valor of great soldiers, and the treachery of treason (the Greeks recognized that treason was wrong, but they really didn't have a clue about other moral failures) are left in. There is a children's version of Herodotus, there is a children's version of Plutarch's Lives, and also the Odyssey, the Iliad. I think I'd skip the Peloponnesian Wars for now. there are many valuable lessons to be learned from them, but _____ is not at the place in her education where this highly politicized and ruthlessly masculine enterprise of war would make much sense." |
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So do any of you have any ideas on this topic?
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Ellie
The Bleeding Pelican
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CatholicMommy
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| Posted: Jan 24 2011 at 4:58pm | IP Logged
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We're not there yet, but Great Books has been something I've always thought about. I don't know much beyond what I myself read in Junior Great Books in 3rd through 7th grades.
So, I'm just bumping this to get attention - I'm curious what others might have to say!
ETA: Catholic Heritage Curricula has a few "Catholic Great Books" available - perhaps would provide some better options?
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JaysFamily
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| Posted: Jan 24 2011 at 6:11pm | IP Logged
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Well, we're nowhere near addressing this issue, but I have some thoughts on it anyway.  I think she has a good point, but I can also see the value in letting teenagers read the real books.
I really think it's something that every parent has to discern, and that there isn't really a one-size fits all answer, since we are all so different. However, I do think it's possible to raise moral children without sheltering them from the evil in the world. I actually sometimes wonder if the issues of teenage chastity, drug use, rebellion, etc., are partly due to withholding knowledge and information from our youth. I remember being extremely annoyed as a teenager when information was held from me as though I was a younger child. I wanted that information and to have those discussions. I think dealing with difficult topics through literature is a great way to guide teenagers through the evils in the world before they're put into situations where they have to directly experience that evil or those temptations. While their peers may be making bad decisions with what may appear to be no consequence, we can show them through literature and history, that yes, consequences for these actions are very real, and yes, there are bad things in things in the world, and here are some better ways to handle this situation than these characters. I think these heavy topics can also lead into great discussions concerning redemptive suffering.
One thing this topic reminds me of is the Catholic Children's Treasure Box series. I was a bit surprised by the story of the baby that falls into the fire, and how God uses this situation to bring about the baby's Baptism. That story is too advanced, scary, and deep for my son, but for many children it's a great way to begin exposing them to idea that life isn't always easy but God knows what He's doing, and we can remain faithful through the tough times.
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Jaysfamily
wife to Jay
mother to DS(5)
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ekbell
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| Posted: Jan 24 2011 at 8:05pm | IP Logged
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I think that the answer is given in the original quotation. When assigning books with mature subject matter you need to provide "careful adult oversight and lots of interaction".
Exactly what any given teen will be ready for depends on their personality type as well as their previous experience. To give an example with my oldest I'm more concerned with the level of detail (she's a bit squeamish) then the fact that people do things that they shouldn't. She's aware that there are people with a improper understanding of morality (particularly in sexual matters) but isn't ready for details.
My personal rule of thumb is if I'm not familar with that particular translation then I should look it over BEFORE assigning it and I should be willing to stop with books that go over my child's comfort level.
There's also the fact that there are soooo many great books. It may be worth considering moving from strict chronological order and using more recent great books from a period with more Christian values if there a real concern or even strong distaste (there is a value to looking over a book even if it's not to the child's taste but there's little value to studying a strongly disliked book- unless your aim is to ensure that the person will want to avoid the book in the future).
BTW while I do have books that my children are not allowed to read due to mature subject matter, I think it important to explain why if they ask, if not in great detail.
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jillian
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| Posted: Jan 24 2011 at 8:09pm | IP Logged
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ekbell and Jaysfamily summed my feelings on this. I came in and typed different responses several times but I couldn't make myself come across as not "preachy" so I am glad others said exactly what I was trying to say. I agree with both of them
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Jan 25 2011 at 7:00am | IP Logged
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I think that there are some good thoughts here!
One thing I keep coming back to, though, is that when these books were written, they were not necessarily written with noble intent. A lot of the ancients writing books in Latin were pushing limits and writing distastefully just like modern authors I wouldn't hesitate to keep from my 13 year old girl in order to guard her innocence (that is if I had one  ). The fact that the writing is "great"--that it has great historical and artistic significance--doesn't necessarily make it acceptable.
For instance, I'm okay with my boys watching the classic The Longest Day. No way am I letting them watch Saving Private Ryan. Very similar subject matter but on a completely different level.
Another thought, a couple of years makes a big difference. 13-14 is really different from 16-17.
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Lindsay
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stellamaris
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| Posted: Jan 25 2011 at 7:33am | IP Logged
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I think when we discuss "Great Books" we need to be a little more specific. There is a set of books called "The Great Books of the Western World" that I think of when any "Great Books" question arises. These books include The Iliad, the Odyssey, Augustine, Marx, Kant, Aquinas, Galileo, etc. The books in this set were included not because they are moral, but because they are part of the "Great Conversation"...answers to the big questions such as "Who is man?", "Is there a God?", or even, "What is the best economic system?" Therefore, both sides of each question are presented...for example, Adam Smith and Karl Marx are both included in this set.
As far as having younger readers grapple with these books, I personally don't think they have either the life experience or the grounding to tackle most of these writings. It is better first of all to be sure you firmly ground a person in truth, so that as they are exposed to error, they can identify it. So, I would first be sure that they know the Bible and the Catechism thoroughly. Then, if you want them to try out some of this literature, you might start with Catholic authors such as Augustine or Aquinas. Other good works to start with include shorter writings like the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence. I would recommend reading selections only and discussing the ideas the author is presenting in detail. A great way to get started at an appropriate level is to use the Family Participation Plan developed by Mortimer Adler. This plan gives an assigned reading selection, an introduction to that reading, and questions for family discussion for grades 7-12.
I agree with the suggestion above to introduce younger students to these works using children's editions. If you choose to use the original editions, you will need to read along with your student so that you can discuss any areas of concern. For instance, we read The Epic of Gilgamesh one year with our 7th graders and got into quite a conversation about Gilgamesh's philandering ways with the women of his city. Because we were reading and discussing, we were able to point out the poverty of the pagan worldview that pervades the story and how Gilgamesh, not knowing God or truth, tried to find meaning. We talked about how blessed we are to know Christ and to know truth. When you read the pre-Christian works, you will find some rays of truth, but also a lot of perspectives on life, death, fate, the value of individual human life, the appropriate use of the body, etc., that are very much opposed to Christian values.
I agree completely with Lindsay,
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. These books do contain many problematic elements, and, really, are better understood by late high school and college age students and older. There is a value to introducing works of this kind in the junior and senior years of high school (which is what we did), so that your student can learn to read critically and analyzing what they read in the light of truth. They will be exposed to many of these works in college, and need to be fortified so that they can identify error when they encounter it. However, I don't see any reason to rush into these works with younger children.
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Caroline
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: Jan 25 2011 at 12:04pm | IP Logged
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I agree with much of what has been said, especially that 15-16 is much different than 13-14, and close parental guidance and much discussion are key.
My ds at 15 is just now ready to tackle such works.Not only because of the moral issues, but because they are just plain difficult to read!
That being said, you can certainly pick and choose amongst the books and find ones that are less problematic. For instance, when reading Greek plays, read Aeschylus, pick and choose with Sophocles according to maturity, but perhaps skip Aristophanes altogether. Read a speech or two from Socrates without having to get into his deeper philosophy.
There is TONS of good stuff to choose from, so no need to throw out the whole Great Books idea just because of a few problematic texts.
Again, though, parental guidance and lots and lots of discussion are key. I try to use this stuff to point out that humans are made to seek truth. Even back then they sought truth as best they could despite the huge moral vacuum of the time. After all, what better way to realize how great was (and is) our need for a savior than to read and really see that desperate seeking of the ancients? And to compare it to those who still today futilely seek truth without Him.
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Theresa
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: rethinking the Great Books...
