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lapazfarm
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| Posted: June 21 2010 at 7:41pm | IP Logged
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In previewing books on the ancient Greeks for my ds (he'll be 15 next school year) I am consistently running up against the topic of atypical (to us) se*ual behaviors. These behaviors which we consider inappropriate (to put it mildly) were apparently common and perfectly acceptable back in the day, and are a part of historical fact that is hard to overlook.
I am honestly not sure how to deal with this with my son and am mulling it over in my mind.
The adultery and promiscuity I think I can handle. But the other stuff? The "young male companion" stuff? Lord help me!
Do I just gloss over it all and pretend it wasn't there? That seems dishonest and leaves him open for a shock when he reads more on his own, later. I'd rather find a way to deal with this gently, together.
I'd love some input here.
How do you folks deal with this issue with your teens?
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Theresa
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guitarnan
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| Posted: June 21 2010 at 8:01pm | IP Logged
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With our son (who is 18 now), I tried to make sure that if those topics came up they did so at a time when Dad was home (at least during the evening) and I would make sure the two of them had a chance to discuss things in an age-appropriate and matter-of-fact way. (No extra details, just a basic definition, a comment that the Church teaches (fill in teaching) and then on to the next thing.)
We really didn't get into the details, though, at all until he was 16 or 17. His reading didn't touch on those issues before that age.
It's very difficult to figure out when your child is ready to handle some of this stuff. I did want him to hear it from us, not from a professor later on, and so we did briefly discuss ancient Greek social practices (not just the topics you allude to, but also slavery, infant exposure, etc., also very dark sides of ancient history). I found that by being brief and matter-of-fact, and by allowing him to change the topic if he wished, we managed to convey the messages that yes, this is what happened, and yes, it was gravely wrong.
I hope this helps...
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Belle
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| Posted: June 21 2010 at 9:08pm | IP Logged
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Just keeping the lines of communication open and allowing the child to express their own views is hard to do but IMO is the most diplomatic approach. Teens don't get enough credit for being able to approach sensitive issues with maturity.
It's natural to want to skirt around the more controversial or distasteful parts of history, some of them can make for awkward conversations and being real, most teens would rather peel their own eye balls like grapes than talk about se*ual behaviours and orientation with their parents! But they are capable of doing so when given a 'safe' boundary line, like discussing se*uality in a historical context. I like what Nancy said. Be brief, matter of fact and allow your child to direct the topic and how deep they want to go.
We're doing Ancient Greece now also. I try to teach in the manners above. The hardest part is not allowing my personal beliefs interfere with the history. I want them to make those connections and form those opinions/judgements on their own without the nudge from Mum. IYKWIM. I am trusting in the foundations I have already laid for them.
But that's just how we're doing it....
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Faithr
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| Posted: June 22 2010 at 6:01am | IP Logged
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I stuck to the basics like The Iliad and the Odyssey and The Aeneid. There is promiscuity, etc in those but not so much the other stuff! I avoid the other stuff to a great degree. We did talk about prostitutes when reading the Epic of Gilgamesh. I think it is important to have some really good formation going on at the same time. I think it is good for teens to have very clear and direct information and teachings about what the Church says about sexuality.
I didn't really get into things like the Symposium etc. I figure they can do that when they are older and more formed. Frankly, I don't think every teen is ready for stuff like this which is one reason I object to doing in depth history chronologically. My oldest daughter was very upset by Odysseus sleeping around on Penelope. At the time she was reading a lot of stuff by Jason Evert and in that time of her life it was important to develop strongly held views on chastity. I think this kind of closed her mind to enjoying the Greeks because she was busy grappling with understanding chastity. I think it would have been better timed if we'd studied the Greeks and Romans later after she had dealt with sexual issues. It was just bad timing. I waited until my oldest son was 17 before we started on the Ancients. He could handle it much better, maybe because he was a boy, but also because he'd already thought through the issues. My current 15 yo seems better at integrating this stuff but just the same I deliberately don't do stuff that has a lot of questionable sexual morality in it. I don't want the only thing they remember to be that Greeks understanding of love is based on drinking lots of wine and seducing young boys!
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: June 22 2010 at 1:19pm | IP Logged
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Great thoughts, ladies. Thank you. They echo many of my own ideas about the subject. I am still pondering this one and not sure exactly how I will approach it. If anyone else has input I'd love to hear it.
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hylabrook1
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| Posted: June 22 2010 at 3:23pm | IP Logged
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The question of how to approach this kind of reminds me of Calvert School's introduction to Greek mythology for 3rd graders. Don't know if they still do it this way, but the first time we used it (1993), it began by saying something like, "The Ancient Greeks lived in a very different time and manner from the way we now live. Among other things, they didn't know that there is only one God. They thought there were many different gods, who dealt with many different parts of life."
Of course, h*m*s*... is a lot easier to find all around us now, while worshipping Greek gods is far less prevalent  , but I do think that a mention that it was a different time and place, with different moral standards is the place to begin. I'm sure you can make that your major point without going into too many gory details.
Peace,
Nancy
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Maggie
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| Posted: June 22 2010 at 4:03pm | IP Logged
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On another note...this just came to my mind. You could also point out that this very perverse, se*ual sin has existed for a very long time...that Satan has perpetuated this lie throughout the centuries...and how that lie still even exists today. That as much as modern society would have our children believe that this behavior is "normal", it is not...
There are some who believe that the fall of Rome was due to h*omose*... behavior, amongst other sins...The idea that perhaps if one lives contrary to God's laws long enough, prosperity is no longer theirs? (I don't claim to be a theologian on this--it is just a thought). It's something to hash out as a family...but noteworthy, I think.
You know when it is best to bring these things up...I don't envy you. I am holding tight to my littles. :)
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: June 22 2010 at 5:08pm | IP Logged
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That is a tricky one, and I can't speak from experience except my own as a teen. I do agree that we might not give teens enough credit. I try SO HARD to guard my children's innocence, as we all do, I'm sure!
But, I seem to recall hearing about it as an older teen in a textbook-y way, being duly horrified (which, no matter when we learn it, we should be horrified, right?). And then, a few years later (not sure if I was in high school or in college, maybe college?), when I saw the movie The Exodus, I saw the scene where the young Jewish boy breaks down and admits his abuse by the Nazi guards. That scene STILL haunts me, and it wasn't even explicit! However, it was different because A)it was dramatized and the actor portrayed the horror even without visuals or terribly explicit words, and B) I was older. It was a moment where I began to grasp more the implications of things I already had known about.
So, I'm rambling a bit, but I do feel that if we are guarding our children's innocence mindfully while still introducing age appropriate ideas, they sort of process it at different levels, taking what they can handle. I know I did. Some things affected me differently as I got older and understood more. I knew things, and then later when mature enough, I *grasped* them. Does that make sense?
I think that many of these ideas can be introduced gradually. I mean, it is a story older than the Greeks. One need only look at the story of Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah to be duly horrified. But that is an example of what I mean. I heard that story a million times as a child, and gradually, as I matured, I grasped the meaning more and more. The scripture is not explicit, just forthright. It doesn't belabor the point.
It does seem that this sort of behavior is sort of the the bottom of the barrel, so to speak, the last part of a decline that seems to lead to a society's destruction. There are no new sins. And, my personal opinion is that seeing these things which grew to be morally acceptable but which had not always been morally acceptable in the society teach us very much about the potential decline of our own culture.
There are parallels in our own culture, so for instance, if your child is old enough to know about the evil of abortion, he's probably old enough to know about Greek practices regarding infants at the same level. I imagine I would gauge what my child was able to hear according to what I'm willing to communicate about our own society.
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Kristie 4
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| Posted: June 24 2010 at 11:27am | IP Logged
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My son didn't realise which book of Herodotus I wanted him to start on this year- his comment was, "MOM, that was disgusting!"  Needless to say we made sure where we were starting next time- Oh, and he bought a book of Aristophanes' plays when he was out one night- I snapped that up quickly! He just saw the cover and thought it looked neat!
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guitarnan
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| Posted: June 24 2010 at 11:47am | IP Logged
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We had a similar experience with the Epic of Gilgamesh.
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JodieLyn
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Mark Shea in his book "Making Senses Out of Scripture" has a chapter that is mainly devoted to explaining how the Gentiles were making out during the days of the Old Testament. And it explains the stories of the gods are made up out of the reaching toward "something" that is missing.. and of course as the stories become more apparent to only be stories and people turn to other things to fill the void.. gladiators and such.. the down turn of society etc... but it puts the whole of the decline in a perspective of the lack of God and trying to fill that void. It doesn't go into anything sexual but after reading it.. it's easy to see how this trying to keep the boredom at bay with fallen human nature leads to the perversions of things that may be good in the right context. Which may help give a perspective when reading these other accounts of things that start to show "the naughty stuff".
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: June 24 2010 at 1:45pm | IP Logged
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A quick background...as a young adult I worked with troubled teens, met my dh working with this population, and dh now (in his PT practice as a psychologist) works with s*xual predators. We aren't wilting flowers before the topic of teens or s*xual deviation.
With our children, we choose to heavily focus on what our Church teaches about marital intimacy...and that anything that deviates from that is wrong. It's pretty simple, really. We don't deny that deviations exists, quite the opposite, but we don't spend time going through all of the possible deviations. As my dh puts it, "Deviations are infinite" and best not placed in anyone's mind if possible.
We feel no moral or educational obligation to go into detail about deviations of today or in history. None. We will say, "A/this culture deviated from what we know to be true about (fill in the blank.)" Our job is to focus on doing right, to include protecting our eyes, minds, and souls from deviations as best as we can.
When our teens do bump into examples of s*xual deviation (and they do) they are taught to identify it as such and come to us. We have our boys go to Dad and my dd comes to me with questions or for more information.
My best guess is that because of my background and my dh's work, my children are unusually steeped in a matter-of-factness about such matters. For example, they know that there are perpetrators and very, very troubled people in our world - past and present. We're not hiding that truth from them as much as protecting all of our hearts as a family right now.
Love,
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Maggie
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| Posted: June 24 2010 at 3:49pm | IP Logged
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Sheesh!!
I had no idea that the "classics" were filled with so much! Not Herodotus!! Argh. I read half of it in college... I must have missed the "bad" parts. And Aristophanes?!?!?
Wow. I had noooooo idea.
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: June 24 2010 at 4:04pm | IP Logged
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Maggie wrote:
Sheesh!!
I had no idea that the "classics" were filled with so much! Not Herodotus!! Argh. I read half of it in college... I must have missed the "bad" parts. And Aristophanes?!?!?
Wow. I had noooooo idea.
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You and me both, Maggie!
I have to admit I had a shamefully poor history education thanks to public schools. I am also ignorant as to what might be in Herodotus and Aristophanes that I need to watch out for because I have never read them myself. (Be assured I will now!LOL!)
The only classics I was ever introduced to in school were Homer and a bunch of Greek and Roman myths. How pathetic is that?
But now I am educating myself so that hopefully my son will have a much finer education in the classics than I had.
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Kristie 4
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| Posted: June 25 2010 at 9:25am | IP Logged
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Theresa, if you look at Kolbe's plans (hey, I can look at them for you, I have the Greek year) they give you a heads up with what parts you should read and which parts to skip- The MODG plans also do this (which I also have!). We didn't use the plans, but they gave us a good heads up. 
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: June 25 2010 at 1:14pm | IP Logged
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Kristie, thanks! I'd love to get that info from you. PM'ing you right now!
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Theresa
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: dealing with the naughty stuff
