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Barb.b
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| Posted: April 10 2010 at 7:37pm | IP Logged
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Sorry, me again. Can you tell I am agonizing over what to do for ds next year 12th grade composition. I hve literature planned out but want to do something for writing to prepare him for college. I have looked at Jensen's format Writing (not sure if it is for 12th grade?) and also a variety of college freshman compositon textbooks. Any advice or experience?
Thanks
Barb
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guitarnan
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| Posted: April 10 2010 at 8:37pm | IP Logged
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Barb, I haven't forgotten - it will take me a bit of time to head down to the college to check out bookstore offerings.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Barb.b
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| Posted: April 10 2010 at 8:54pm | IP Logged
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OH Nancy, don't worry. I didn't mean I was impatient for you! Just trying to get reccomendations from folks as to what they used and liked. I think I am thinking to hard about this. Now I am wondering between a college level text or something smaller like Jensen's format writing. COmpostition ollege texts I've seen are huge (600+ pages) I am not sure how much actual writing time that will give him!
Thanks for remembering! Don't make a special trip - Ive looked online at a number of college texts already. LIke I said I am now wondering if I shouln't stick with a high school text!
Barb
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guitarnan
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| Posted: April 10 2010 at 9:00pm | IP Logged
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I am just curious...and my son will have to take college comp next year anyway. He'll never survive if his textbook has 600 pages!
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Barb.b
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| Posted: April 10 2010 at 9:06pm | IP Logged
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Well, I think some of those pages are technical: footnotes and bibliography how to, and grammar review. Some were also like an anthology with readings included. I think I am going to go for something targeted for high school. I just want him to keep writing! We had Seton for 9th, 10th and 11th - he is burnt out on them! He knows the 5 paragraph essay, but Seton was so specific in what they were looking for all the time.
Have you ever seen Jensen's Format Writing. I have heard people like it.
Is your son a senior in High school this year? Did you do anything specific with writing?
Barb
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ALmom
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| Posted: April 15 2010 at 6:57pm | IP Logged
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Barb:
From what I've seen of English comp texts - I'd ditch them. What you really need is a good book that tells you how to document your sources, MLA Handbook, Turubian - it doesn't really matter. It is helpful, really, if the particular resource text is up to date. Otherwise you may find your child coming to you asking how to document on-line sources - and you haven't a clue because your book was before the days of internet. Also some of the grammar conventions, etc. have changed. Folks aren't as comma happy as in my day.
The main thing is that the child can read and follow the directions, pay attention to the detail. If you tell them to double space, 12 point font and ... then they'd better do it. If you tell them to use a particular style, they'd better do it. One prof took off a whole letter grade if you didn't use black ink. You'd better use black ink.
Then the only other thing you need is to write and write and write - a lot. The writing should encompass a variety of things - a persuasive essay, a personal essay, compare and contrast, research paper, business letter, ... -. They should know how to document sources in a well written essay for subject matter where they are trying to either persuade, inform or compare. One type of documentation is more common in certain fields than others. If you know the likely direction of the child, that is the one I'd use. If not, just pick one. The prof in college is going to do that, give them the resource and expect them to read and follow it. I'm sure more English saavy people could give you a better list of types of things to write - and some of the main things to look for. Some of the typical areas of weakness in our house after figuring out how to organize your thoughts and get them down in some coherent fashion are things like passive voice, changes in tense, using familiar terms in a formal essay and being too formal in a personal essay, using transition words that were fine in middle or elementary but not very elegant, not ending sentences with prepositions. Once you get someone to actually step through a paper with you and your child a few times, you begin to pick up the particular areas that need work in your house. When you get to the point that you have nothing left to say; then you get someone to go over things with you again. Oh and there is something to be said for having a variety of folks look at your work. One person focuses a lot on descriptive words and such; someone else wants you to cut out all unnecessary words. Some of this is style but a lot is also learning to master saying exactly what you want to say in a clear and elegant way without being wordy (wordiness - surprise, surprisse  is another one of our family weak areas).
To find out some of the types of things to cover - look at the headings of just about any comp workbook as a spot check that we've done a variety of writing. Some may also give you some good stategies for proofreading and editing. Most of the comp books spend most of the time telling them how to make their writing more interesting and then they practice altering sentence structure. The examples are often awkward, and poorly done. If your children read a lot of good literature, living books in a subject area - those are better models of how to write.
If you are not good at suggesting or leading them into good paper topics - well then you find plans, books or people that give decent suggested topics. There are lots of this kind of stuff out there - in history, in literature, in theology, SAT essay practice or scholarship or college application essays (person who most influenced you, the person you admire most, the mistake you learned the most from, etc.). I'm horrible at coming up with topics, and my children much prefer to be given some parameters from any source other than me - so I have found many sources. I get lesson plans from a variety of places and if I do nothing else but steal their paper topics - it was well worth it!!! 
If you need someone to help your child stay accountable, you hire someone (provider, retired teacher, trade off with another mom - there is a way).
I found it difficult for me to keep the children moving forward because they, by highschool for the most part, had equaled or excelled my writing ability. They needed someone else to look at their papers. This does not have to be someone "official" but it should be someone who can comment on the elegance of the writing and show them, specifically, how to make it better with a few tangible suggestions.
Someone recommended Circe to me this past year. It was too expensive for us - though very, very appealing at a look from the distance. However, we simply had our son submit paper topics for evaluation every week. (We used Kolbe, but really it doesn't matter what you work out). He started out submitting outline one week, then intro paragraph the next and finally the whole paper. I was amazed at his improvement - and we no longer ask for anything but the final paper. He also says that this feedback is the most helpful - we'll be sticking with that as it is working for us.
Sorry, this isn't a recommendation for a text. I haven't liked any we tried. Oh, and in college - my dd's writing class (the advanced level that counted for 2 courses), they didn't use the book at all. It was taught by a professional writer. There may have been a book they had to purchase and it was horrendous in content and otherwise. They never cracked the book excpet once for some minor reading. My dd wished she'd never even purchased it. They wrote and the professor commented on their writing. They read things to write about and wrote. They wrote about experiences. They wrote all kinds of things. He gave them suggestions, commented on word choices, recommended ways to lead in to a persuasive essay that didn't make the person you were trying to convince angry and oppositional from your first sentence.
Janet
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guitarnan
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| Posted: April 15 2010 at 10:01pm | IP Logged
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Adding to Janet's super-helpful info:
Writing up some of those college app topics is a useful exercise. My son had to do something like this for his Eagle Scout application (statement of future goals and current leadership experience), so the utility stretches beyond college applications. I think it's helpful for our children to learn to think through these questions because they will confront them in every job interview they experience. (And if you're looking for a list of questions, just go to a college website and sign up for the application process or check out What Color Is Your Parachute? from the library and look at some of the interview questions contained within.)
My son is taking a college history course this term and has to do a personal interview for his term paper. None of our resources (MLA, etc.) really has offered enough info for him to figure out how to edit down over 90 minutes of taped interviews into 7-10 pages. He's emailed the professor and will have to do whatever the professor tells him to do. Even if that means transcribing all 90 minutes of tape. (The paper will be 30 pages long...)
Bottom line: Some of this is just plain subjective. You find out what the teacher wants and provide it to the best of your ability.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Topic: 12th grade composition
