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Bookswithtea
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I recently have become aware of what one public school 11th grade English class considers "grade appropriate." Its got me wondering if my expectations for high school are too high. Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of what an honors English class or a private school English class might expect, for comparison?
And how do we know how much is too much, or not enough? I want to have high expectations, but I don't want to lead a young adult to discouragement, either.
For example, these 11th graders are expected to do 4 novel projects that are between 11-15 pages long. They were given carte blanche for novel choice. But the first several pages are "pick 25 vocab. words you don't know from the book and define in the your own words." The second section is "choose 10 quotes and tell me what they mean in 3-5 sentences each." So now its looking to me that 12-15 pages over a quarter is not particularly strenuous, given the assignments for the first several pages.
It seems like this is a lot easier than my own English 11 class, in the 80's. Are the schools that much easier, or am I remembering wrong? I am trying to plan my second child's high school years and I am finding myself very confused now, not sure if my expectations are too low or too high. 
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Barb.b
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I am not sure what english classes around here do. We do Seton English. There are 6 books to read this year, with a literary analysis paper with each one (real analysis - not the vocabulary and quote stuff you described). I love that the test are challanging, he does have to study and creates his own study guide while he is studying. His first test was quite long when he was through! There is also a test with each that is short answer and essay (closed book). There is also 2 poetry units with tests. I do think there are at least 1 or 2 other essays, but am not sure.
I believe that most public school classes expectations are to low with not enough real writing and literary analysis.
Barb
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Bookswithtea
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We used Seton's English 10 last year, so I have an idea of their expectations. I wonder where they fall on the continuum?
I wonder sometimes if the impression we have of traditional schools (public or Catholic) is accurate.
And then I wonder if it really matters? What others are doing doesn't matter in the sense that every education should ideally be individualized to the child. But then again, a transcript has to mean something objective to everyone who reads it. Or maybe no one even pays attention to transcripts anymore because the ACT and the SAT are the great equalizers now?
But none of that leaves me with any sort of guideline for designing my own programs, making sure that my expectations are challenging but reasonable.
I am frustrated.
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~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Natalia
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Books,
I was coming here to post something similar. My question was more along the lines of: How difficult does high school has to be?
As you might remember we have been with Classical Conversations since 9th grade. It is a challenging program but this year the workload seems to have taken a jump. My dd is taking:
1.- Literature (Shakespeare and poetry). For this class she will read five plays. She is expected to write an essay for each play and to memorize 30 lines of each one for a dramatic interpretation.She is also to keep a vocabulary list.
2- American History: She is using a book called A Patriot's History of the United States. It is a great book but it is wordy. She is expected to read 20-25 pages per week. She is to keep a history notebook and timeline, write 6 essays and do six presentations on a give topic.
3. Philosophy (only one semester) She is to keep a vocabulary list, read the textbook, do a presentation and create a study guide for each chapter. She is also to lead the class discussion once.
4. Logic (one semester) Daily reading and assignments, case study essays (using an SAT format) and keep a vocabulary list.
5. Algebra II: she is expected to complete a lesson a day from Saxon.
She is also taking two classes at the local college. She is taking Chemistry 121 and an Advanced Spanish Grammar. In contrast these two classes are not as challenging. The Chem professor told them that the quizzes and exams come straight from his lectures. She doesn't even have to read the textbook (which cost us 130.00 and looks pretty impressive). The grades are going to be based on weekly quizzes, a midterm and a final exam. Her Spanish class is more time consuming than challenging. It consists of the typical fare of written exercises from a workbook.
This is a lot, I think. I have found myself more than one facing a weeping teenager that is overwhelmed by all the work. The thing is I don't know if she is justified in being overwhelmed or if she just needs to learn to work. See what i mean? I don't have a point of comparison. I am afraid of slacking off because I am afraid she won't get a good education. I don't know where the balance is. So, I haven't answer your question. This is a lengthy way of saying "I hear you."
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stellamaris
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My first child to go to school (my fifth) is in Catholic school ninth grade right now (for a lot of reasons..) After years of feeling that I wasn't expecting enough from my high schoolers, I was totally amazed to discover that my dd has read ALL of the high school honors class books for this semester, which were: A Man for All Seasons, Romeo and Juliet, To Kill a Mockingbird, The Prince and the Pauper. That's it for the entire semester. They're reading some short stories and plays like Antigone in class as well. They aren't doing a lot of papers so far, but have done one in-class 45 min essay to prep for the SAT. Lots of focus on vocabulary, which my dd already knows from reading 19th century literature, but they use the Sadler Vocabulary Series (I think Kolbe uses that, or used to). Really a lot less than I would have required in one semester, so I do think I could have relaxed a little. Anyway, the level of effort required even in private schools is apparently not too high! The other thing I just can't quite understand is that they are using the "block" system, so that means only one semester of English, one of math, one of French, etc. I don't think 1 1/2 hrs. of math a day for 3 months is anywhere near as effective as 45 mins. of math a day for 7 months! Same with foreign languages, how can you study French for just 3 months and then not study it for 9 months and expect to get anywhere?? I can see this for history, science, etc., but basic math and English and languages I don't think should be handled like this.
I'm pretty sure whatever you do will be lots more than is required at the local schools, whether public or private. If it is too demanding, your pupil will have difficulty keeping the pace and you can always reduce your expectations. I wouldn't worry about what others are doing; just do what works for your children and you and you will do great!
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Caroline
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Willa
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My fourth son is in public high school -- a sophomore this year.
Last year his coursework for LA looked much like what Caroline described. For class he read some short stories, Romeo and Juliet, To Kill a Mockingbird, Lord of the Flies, and they also did a unit on poetry and one on Greek myths. For each "unit" there was some sort of writing project. He wrote a five page research paper during the first semester, did a PowerPoint presentation for Greek myths in the second semester, and did a project packet for Romeo and Juliet and one for Lord of the Flies. The project packets included such things as drawing a cover for the book; writing a character sketch; taking study notes describing what various quotes meant in the context of the book; things like that. In addition there was a grammar/vocabulary component to the class (mostly worksheets and quizzes which were easy to him) and some requirements for extra reading (Accelerated Reading program) which added up to about 6 books of choice for the year (you have to write a book report or else pass a multiple choice comprehension test to show you did the reading).
I realized after graduating my eldest from our homeschool 8 years ago that my expectations for him were more in line with what they would call Honors or AP classes in school now. And I am not one of those homeschoolers who is particularly rigorous.
If you google things like "Honors English 11 Course Outline" you can get an idea of what the classes expect from their student. Here's one
I don't know if classes have gotten all that much easier, because I remember my high school LA classes being pretty easy. ... not too much different from what my son is doing. I think I was usually comparing my high school childrens' work with curriculums like Kolbe's or Veritas Press's where you read heavy material and write lots of essays. Our homeschool always came up short compared to that kind of thing.
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Willa
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Bookswithtea
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Willa and Caroline, what is expected of your traditionally schooled students in the way of homework?
Natalia, how about your dd's cc coursework? Is there much homework?
Natalia, could you drop one class per semester to lighten her load just a little (maybe the logic/philosophy)? Or do you think she might just need a bit of time to get used to the harder pace? Looking at her load, the thing that occurs to me is that there is nothing on her list that is gentle, like an art credit or something like that. Maybe its not the number of credits but how hard all the subject matter is?
Caroline, I didn't know that high schools ever used the block method??? I schooled that way with my ds last year with mixed results. But I went to a college on the quarter system (10 weeks for a full course, 11th week was finals, 3 quarters for a full year...4th quarter was summer) and it worked well there, so maybe they are trying to get kids used to that model?
My ds is attending a public school where he is both getting training in how to be a contractor (1/2 the day) and then he is taking physics, alg II and English 11/American Lit. He is also homeschooling Spanish 1 and Religion. Class sizes are small and the teachers are good. Morale is high at the school. I honestly figured this would be quite a load for him and that he wouldn't have too much free time. He is not particularly gifted in mathematics, science or writing. He hardly ever has homework and he is ace-ing everything. The school is thrilled. His standardized test scores are bumping up their status in the district. I don't know what to think.
Your descriptions are similar to what I am finding. It makes me wonder, are the courses we are developing as homeschoolers more the equivalent of a freshman level college course?
And if that is the case, is that a good thing, or are we expecting too much? I don't have a clue what an appropriate standard should be?
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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JodieLyn
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It hink it may be a good thing Books.. I wasn't going to say much in this thread only having my background to go on.. but it seems to me that many incoming freshman to college end up with at least a few "remedial" courses.. ones that aren't good for credit toward graduation but that you need to pass (or test out of) as a requirement for the classes that are good for credit toward graduation.
It just seems not having anyone in highschool that the classes are getting "harder".. like Algebra 1 in 8th grade.. but what it takes to pass the classes isn't as hard as you would think.
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G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
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Bookswithtea
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JodieLyn wrote:
| but it seems to me that many incoming freshman to college end up with at least a few "remedial" courses.. ones that aren't good for credit toward graduation but that you need to pass (or test out of) as a requirement for the classes that are good for credit toward graduation. |
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I took AP English in 1987. We all thought we were going to be ahead. Instead, what we found was that all freshmen had to take English 1a, 1b, and 1c (a full year's worth of English). These were essentially a repeat of high school English. And if you got a 3 on the test, you started with 1b and if you got a 4 on the test, you could start with 1c. So we all felt a little cheated, because it still felt like remedial English to us.
JodieLyn wrote:
| It just seems not having anyone in highschool that the classes are getting "harder".. like Algebra 1 in 8th grade.. but what it takes to pass the classes isn't as hard as you would think. |
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I hadn't considered that before. It does seem like the standards are getting harder and the classes are being pushed earlier. But what they define as passing may be very different from what we as hsers think of as a passing grade. Maybe that is where some of my confusion is coming from.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Barb.b
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| We used Seton's English 10 last year, so I have an idea of their expectations. I wonder where they fall on the continuum? |
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I think they are just right. Probably could be tougher. On a test they really expect you to discusswithout looking at the book - lots of literary elements of the book. They have raised the expectations of the papers a bit in 11th, and there seems to be more of them. So maybe they are in the mid range (not too low or overly high). It seems to me that ds friends in public high school don't write papers or essays much - usually doing "projects" like a video or something. To me that is fluff. I too have heard that more college freshman these days need remedial classes. Also, I read a study of the TOP 10% of Texas students who went to Texas universities - most in the study had a difficult time transitioning and got a lot lower grades. I think that public schools in general have failed the kids by expecting less. As we homeschool there is a fine line between being too tough and too lenient. I think we can expect lots from our kids and then we can always adjust if we feel it is too much for that particular child. Not that I want a type A overachiever kid. Not at all. But I do expect more reading (history is about 20-25 pages per week in his main history text and 15-20 more per week in a supplementary book), I also expect writing more often and a faster time from start to finish. I will assign essays in history too. He is finishing an literary analysis essay for Seton this week, while he is starting a history one this week; we are starting The Screwtape letters this week and he will begin a literary analysis essay on that for Seton is 2 1/2 - 3 weeks. So there isn't much break between papers!
Barb
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Moni
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Quote:
| like Algebra 1 in 8th grade.. but what it takes to pass the classes isn't as hard as you would think. |
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This is true.
My niece in a "very good" public school took PreCalculus as a senior. Did great in the class at high school, made an "Easy A" by her accounts.
She took the Math assessment in college and tested right back into PreCalculus, and proceeded to Flunk Out first semester of PreCalculus in college. It was just too hard of a math class.
So...
this kind of leads me to think, do you want a Transcript listing certain classes? That's one way to homeschool.
Or do you want a student really mastering the coursework?
Often that's quite a different method of homeschooling.
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KackyK
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If you wonder about the public school expectation...It's probably too late to do this now, but a friend of mine (a lurker here!) calls the local schools and finds out when their back to school nights are. They have always been very welcoming to her. They (she has gone to high schools, middle schools and elementary schools) allow her to bebop through to different classrooms and look around. She gets an eyeful of their syllabi. She chats with teachers. Plus a lot of teachers post their syllabi on the school websites. fwiw
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marihalojen
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Well, Dd is a freshman at the local brick and mortar school and my dh is continually amazed at her homework
- illustrate and write a sentence on your favorite part of the novel in Advanced Reading
- an Algebra 1 workbook and permission to use a calculator that she keeps forgetting to use (hurray for all that mental math over the years!)
- illustrate and define 3 words from a list in Science (her three words were Respect, Reciprocity, Honor)
- Make a collage using a minimum of 2 differing materials for English
He says it's just like she was back in 4th grade!  By the way, these are all Honors courses...
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Angie Mc
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marihalojen wrote:
| He says it's just like she was back in 4th grade! By the way, these are all Honors courses... |
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So good to see your report, Jennifer  . I'm not surprised at all that Marianna is lookin' good  .
BTW, the standards of my high school in the 80's were so low that if I told you them you wouldn't believe me. Here's one quick example...one year for science all I did was leave the school with another friend in the class and go across the street to purchase a snack for the teacher. This too was an honors class  . God is so good to give me this experience...I rarely worry about "high school standards" because God brings good out of all things...even lack luster high school experiences.
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Bookswithtea
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Well, I guess its the same across the nation, then, and it doesn't seem to matter if its a private or public school, an honors class or not.
Angie, if you don't worry about objective standards, how do you know then what is an appropriate amount of work or difficulty level for your high schoolers?
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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JodieLyn
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Books, one of the things to look at is how much time it takes.. if it's taking an exhorbitant amount of time it's likely too much/too difficult. If it's not taking much time at all.. it may need to be boosted up some.
Since the goal is to educate our children.. then in some ways the "standards" aren't enough. Some children can breeze through them without ever needing to learn study habits.. others can get so bogged down that they do nothing but schoolwork in order to "keep up".
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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Willa
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| Willa and Caroline, what is expected of your traditionally schooled students in the way of homework? |
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He seems to have about 45-90 minutes of homework most nights, now that he's a sophomore. Last year it was usually about an hour. Sometimes he can get a lot of it done during school hours.
One interesting thing is that at his school, at least, ordinary homework isn't usually graded for correctness. I mean by ordinary homework things like math exercises and science chapter questions. They look to see whether it's done or not and that's about it, most times.
That was interesting to me because I used to feel so guilty about not checking my homeschooled highschoolers work every day -- but then of course, I didn't test as much as the schools do. They base a good part of the grade on inclass tests and quizzes and on class work (labs etc)
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Willa
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Barb.b
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JodieLyn wrote:
Books, one of the things to look at is how much time it takes.. if it's taking an exhorbitant amount of time it's likely too much/too difficult. If it's not taking much time at all.. it may need to be boosted up some.
Since the goal is to educate our children.. then in some ways the "standards" aren't enough. Some children can breeze through them without ever needing to learn study habits.. others can get so bogged down that they do nothing but schoolwork in order to "keep up". |
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I agree. The great thing about home education is that we can challange our particular kids - not compare with others or some arbitrary standard. It is nice to know that my home school has higher expectations then most public schools. Once in a while someone will tell my ds how nice - and easy it must be because he homeschools. My son usually replies that it is not easier but in fact harder!
Barb
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Bookswithtea
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When I planned for my first ds, I planned what I thought was a good college prep program. He struggled mightily through the year to finish at a reasonable hour. I blamed it partially on being easily distracted and partially on that natural bump up that comes from moving from 8th to 9th grade. 10th grade was different, but not that much less strenuous.
I am wondering now if I did my ds a disservice, pushing him too hard, after seeing the school's expectations. Last year did not go well for us. I'm wondering if it wasn't the 8th to 9th curve or his dawdling. Maybe it was my fault for expecting too much.  I sent one of my home made religion courses to a member here who told me she wouldn't have been able to get her ds to do it, either.
So for me, the idea of expectations is personal. I don't know if I did my son a favor by expecting so much, or if I just created a grumpy teen. There's a scripture about fathers not provoking their sons to the point of discouragement. I want to get a better handle on this now, before my dd starts high school level work in a year.
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Kristie 4
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Oh my, this is where I am at with both my older ones. The morning that Jennifer talked about on the other thread, the one with the relaxed breakfast, is not us right now! We are slugging into the starting gates here and then poor ds12 is taking absolutely all day and we are not getting our lessons finished at all.....I really think we need to craft the expectations to the child- to encourage and push a little, but find that magic middle line that gives them the opportunity to both work and not be discouraged! (By the way, I am talking to myself here!!!)
What do we want for this particular child? How can we prepare them in a genereal sense is they don't know their specific calling yet? Are we trying to give them the 'best' education when what is the 'best' for this child might look very different from the 'best' that we read about/see in the school guides/etc.?
Hmmmm...now off to follow my own advice. To learn how to inspire and challenge with support and encouragement- how to tailor this homeschool to my child!
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Kristie in Canada
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: high school expectations
