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12stars
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| Posted: Sept 09 2009 at 6:35pm | IP Logged
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Yes I am, my daughter just started 8th grade and this keeps popping up in my head constantly. 
We are currently doing a charter school ( yes I know about the debate and I don't want one right now  )
She is currently doing
Teaching Textbooks Pre Algebra she wanted to redo it again..sigh.. and she loves it by the way.
Science by Gravitas Press (she hates science so I thought this would be gentle on her and it has been)
History: from Great Books Academy Famous Men of the Middle Ages with some readers and Christ the King Lord of History as a spine.
Art by Barry Stebbing God and History
Lingua Mater Americana
Rosetta Stone Spanish
Student Writing Intensive by Pudewa
I really like our charter BUT I was told that I would no longer be able to tweak in the Catholic part of it which is totally understandable.
She would need to have Highly Qualified Teaching as a must, but that I would not be able to have someone actually teach her, if I needed a tutor then I could go that route as well.
I am having a huge problem taking out the Catholic content in history, not being able to teach science objectively of evolution and everything else that follows a charter that I don't like.
For the elementary and middle years they are able to give parents a lot of freedom and flexibility. Not so in high school, because they say that they want to keep their accreditation and anything secterian in HS threatens that.
I am looking at Angelicum, to continue what she is diong now I really like their high school curriculum, but they are not accredited and that scares me. I know it shouldn't at all but truth be told I am intimidated by this.
I love Kolbe, but I need more support at times especially with grading, I am scared they won't help much with that.
Seton looks right up my alley ( because it is boxed, accredited and set to go) but I have seen some teens just not like it at all and feel  . My hesitation with taking this route, is starting it and my daughter does not like it because it is so rigid.
Lastly if I do go with out the charter for her, the $$$ is another issue these umbrella private schools are so spendy. We are willing to make that sacrifice, but my fear is jumping around from school to school trying to find the right match. I am just scared of going it all alone.
So that is what is bouncing around in my heart and head. Thank you so much for reading this far, any comments will be greatly appreciated.
__________________
Claudia in Southern California
Wife to George,
Mom to DD 14, DD 10, DD 7, DS 4, DS 2, 1 in heaven, and now due 5/11.
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JodieLyn
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Claudia, why not find out if the accreditation is really the bugaboo you think it is? What about it scares you? that they wouldn't teach what should be taught? that a college won't accept it? If you find out just what it is that bothers you, you can then do the research to find out if it's a real concern or just a shadow that disappears in the light.
Could you get some of the various programs (maybe even just a part of one) you're looking at used? or borrow from someone? and have time to really look it over and have you daughter take a peek? That might help you figure out what would or wouldn't work.
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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guitarnan
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I think it's great that you're considering these issues now. Much better than waiting until next spring!
We are with an accredited umbrella that is fairly expensive (especially senior year, ouch!) and is beginning to tighten up all the reporting requirements...we'll certainly finish out ds's senior year but I don't know what we'll do for dd after ds graduates. I haven't seen too much on college websites about demanding accreditation for homeschool programs. (Ask me again in a couple of months, though...we're just starting this process.)
I worried so much about ds's transcripts and so on, but I do think that issue varies from state to state. Maybe it would be worth some of your time (or, maybe you've done this!) to look at Cal State and UC campus websites to see how important accreditation might be. From the research (limited) that I have done, UC campuses in particular are not too homeschool-friendly, so this is something worth checking. If a bunch of state schools won't accept parent-certified transcripts, you might need an umbrella school or a homeschool program like Kolbe or Seton, I don't know.
One thing I do like about our umbrella is that we have complete control over our curriculum. They don't help much with grading, but they do offer varying levels of support for parents and learners, at different price levels. We can keep our program Catholic and they are fine with that. They don't calculate a GPA on the transcript - we'll see how that works for college apps...
It sounds as though your priorities for next year are:
Catholic-based curriculum, chosen by you
Grading assistance
Accreditation
Flexibility if a particular book/subject needs to be changed
If that's correct, maybe other parents who've used the programs you've named can weigh in with their thoughts.
__________________
Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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ALmom
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Claudia:
We are from AL which is much more homeschool friendly than CA. We have never done an accredited program - or should I say, we have never received our transcript from an accredited program. I don't see this keeping us out of college - and one is already there. I have used things from just about every provider at some point or another and done some things on my own. In the few application processes we've done so far, as long as our schooling as been legal in the state, our transcript is good. There was 1 college (a private, liberal protestant) that required a transcript from an accredited school - they did not exclude others but you did have to speak with them directly. Other schools wanted a book list and course description if you were homeschooling. Most didn't care as long as the SAT score met whatever their requirements were and the courses were comparable to what they required - ie Biology and Chemistry with 2 labs and some sort of physical science, english, American and World History, 2 foreign languages. Depending on the major and the school, the requirements varied slightly. Some places require AP scores (or SAT II subject tests).
Scholarships were a bit tougher at these places unless you were coming with an audition type thing or an automatic scholarship based on the SAT scores. I don't think it was prejudice against homeschoolers as much as not quite being able to ascertain the difficulty of the courses. We were competing against folks with 5 and 6 AP classes and nothing on our transcript could have any sort of honors, AP or special designation. Some of our courses were probably easier than the public schools - ie science with less rigorous labs because I don't have all that lab equipment. Other things, like my English, history and theolgy and math were equivalent to honors or more demanding in terms of thought processes and writing, but not as familiar with some of the racier books on the booklists. Now that I know more, I am having second son keep a running list of books read. I will make an addendum of what specific books were used to attach to our transcript even if this is not required, because I think it will give a better picture of our school I will also have recommendation letters from folks outside of the family who worked with them and might even write something myself to describe the unique benefits of our approach and the way our children have learned by doing. We'll also do a better job keeping up with outside activities. We had some, but you forget over the course of years.
So much varies from region to region and school to school. Ask around in your state - among other homeschoolers there, the admissions folks (you don't have to give names when you are just looking for general information).
As far as covers. Honestly, they all provide certain things and work for some and not for others. Each year, the providers change what they offer in terms of services, based on feedback from us, the customer. Kolbe now has an EES service (you pay for it but we have found it invaluable for our family) where they grade 12 items per quarter that you are signed up. They also will grade things not on their plans. I'm thinking that is comparable to what Seton grades. Their plans also have more helpful paper topic points, etc. and books with study guides. We use some of this but there is plenty to provide documentation of work done. I don't use them for the transcript so some of the rules about what is or is not handed in for which diploma type are things I haven't paid a lot of attention to. I have done some Seton courses and noticed that they have built in more choices and flexibility in the book reports than the last time we used them. I use single courses from them a lot to get past the things that made it seem so rigid to me. I have no idea how they have changed their full enrollment. I do know they have an option for doing your own courses - I'm not sure what they allow you to do this for, but it is worth checking with them about. I loved Kolbe EES, my sister preferred Seton's grading service. I think you just have to ask, get a feel for things and see how it goes. You really can make anything work, once you know what it is you really need. So I use Kolbe plans as an outline, sign up for their EES, sometimes use single courses from other places (my own Govt. course using Declaration Statesmanship or a single course with Seton). I've hired private tutors for languages, joined a co-op for science labs, and used the transcript from my own local, cover school.
I guess what I'm trying to say is look at what is out there, formulate questions (make them as specific as possible). If you are concerned about Seton's flexibility, you must have heard something that bothers you. "I heard that anyone who gets a transcript from you, absolutely must take the xyz history course. We really want to do ..... Is this possible. How would it be recorded. Would we still be required to...." With Kolbe, if you are concerned about support in grading, ask, " I heard you have an EES, but I'm really worried about being able to grade everything. Is it possible to use EES to do grading for me or will I still need to do a lot of that." Be honest with your concerns and limits. If you want to do something, ask? If accreditation is important to you, ask about the accreditation and the type. But ask the schools that don't offer accreditation or who are privately accredited about where their recent graduates are going.
I really think you'll be way more relaxed once you start asking questions.
What options do you have for duel enrollment in say math or foreign languages. We have easy access here as homeschoolers and if my children want to pursue a language beyond about 2 years, then that is where they will go. I am likely to have one son duel enroll in science courses after we finish Biology for high school - unless things have changed by then. But each year, I look afresh at what is out there if I need to tweak something or need a change for one child or another.
Both Seton and Kolbe were extremely generous with their time answering my questions. They want you to find a good fit and are glad to help you figure out what they do and do not permit. I'm sure they'd be happy to speak with you personally- maybe wait until the new school year rush has passed and then call. Often you can look at material and lesson plans. Kolbe's program isn't very visible to the public from catelogue or other things. You really do need to see the plans for the particular grade and year. Also ask the questions. We have found Kolbe immensely flexible and helpful. We love Seton for certain courses for certain children. What I hated one year with one child, I love this year with a different child.
Now is a good time to be sorting through this. You aren't under pressure yet, can take your time, look at things, mull over things, make lists of plusses and minuses of each thing you find - and then hash all that over with your husband. You will probably call and talk to the top few providers at least a couple of times in this process. Taking your time and asking your questions will save you in the long run.
Janet
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Molly Smith
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| Posted: Sept 10 2009 at 4:34am | IP Logged
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12stars wrote:
| Yes I am, my daughter just started 8th grade and this keeps popping up in my head constantly. |
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Me, too. I've been mulling it over since the beginning of the year and seriously thinking about it all summer. My issue is that my dd would really like to attend public school (there are no Catholic high schools within a reasonable distance). Because I want to keep that door open for her, she'll need to be in an accredited program. Our high school (which does have lots of positives) is 10th-12th grade, but our 8th-9th junior high is rough. In order for her to enter at any point other than 9th, she'd have to been enrolled in an accredited school.
Long story short, we are most certainly going to enroll with Kolbe for 9th. I have quite a few friends here who have done that with great success. They've subbed out curricula and received the support they needed. One just decided to attend public school for 10th grade and sailed right through the system.
I feel the same way that you do--that I don't want to jump around. Even if I was 100% sure she'd be home for all of her education, I'd still want to do something like Kolbe for my own peace of mind, to be sure she was getting a solid Catholic education without any major gaps, to have a well-built transcript and be prepared for college, if that is her path. It's a confidence thing for me.
Thanks for starting the thread. This topic is on my mind daily, so I'm looking forward to hearing what everyone has to say.
__________________
Molly Smith in VA
Mom to seven beautiful children, ages 1-14
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Bookswithtea
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Claudia, I used to hs in So Ca, so I'm familiar with the laws there. If your child is college bound, I think the accreditation issue is not as intimidating as people often think, unless you are considering one of the few colleges that aren't courting former homeschoolers.
If you are considering community college for the first two years (most of my friends in CA still do this because its a tremendous savings and there's a CC practically every 20 miles in So CA ), then accreditation doesn't matter at all.
Looking at what you are using currently, I'm not sure Seton would be that great a fit for you.
Its worth noting that the plethora of small private schools in CA are not accredited and have no governmental oversight at all (its the same R4 law Californians use), yet no one really worries about it. Realistically, if you wrote your dd's transcript on very professional looking paper and gave your school a formal name, most colleges would never even know if your dd was homeschooled or if she had attended a private school.
This is why people use ISP's. There are some paperwork-only ISPs that are quite affordable and will give you a significant amount of freedom in curriculum choice. Others have added requirements that the law does not require.
More expensive options with some handholding?
You might want to call MODG and get a very straight answer from them to the question, "How much of your program do I have to use". My friend has been with them since her oldest (now 11th grade) was in K and is just now discovering that there is a lot more freedom to choose than she originally thought.
I know that Kolbe also allows a lot of freedom in curriculum choice, but they do not allow any high school level courses done in the 8th grade to be listed on the high school transcript.
You could also R4 and then pay for an out of state accredited school like NARS or Clonlara that will allow you to continue to do exactly as you like. Clonlara is the more expensive option. Or...you could do what I am knocking around doing with my 8th gr. dd ...NARS will backlog high school for the same cost as belonging to their school. You just have to pay for the entire thing up front with this option and keep records in the format that they want. So I'm thinking that I may go without the accreditation and then see, on the other side, if she actually needs it. If she does, then I'll pay on the other side and get it logged.
Fwiw, its a good idea to start thinking about high school now. Not to early at all. Maybe think about what kinds of curricula you want to use, first, and then figure out which option would best suit your needs?
Hope this helps...
__________________
Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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12stars
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| Posted: Sept 10 2009 at 10:59am | IP Logged
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Thank you so much ladies I don't feel like a crazy mama here!!
You have eased my heart a tremendous amount, thank you.
Sending her to a public high school is out of the question. God put it in my heart to homeschool for various reasons and He has brought her so far, that I feel sending her would comprimise all that she has become, especially in those crucial years. I hope that makes sense.
When I started homeschooling I also homeschooled my little sisters for 9th and 11th grade with Kolbe.
I loved their solid curriculum and the method was phenomenal. It brought back one of them from being interested in the occult. That is a whole story in itself.
The only thing I can say about Kolbe was my insecurity to grade properly. It was more me than them, but I would have loved that support.
Needless to say the youngest of the two sisters is going to graduate this year through a public charter as well. She was told that the year she did with Kolbe would not count because they are not WASC accredited and that if she wanted to go to a UC school she would have to redo that year
She was upset and I called Kolbe and they affirmed they are accredited. So I don't know why her school right now would be telling her that. I feel upset as well about that. Like you said Books, UC schools do not favor homeschoolers. But I am thinking if I start something like Kolbe and stick through the whole 4 years then it might look favorable to a UC. I mean what are they going to do void it all?
I just don't want to close any doors in the case my DD wants to be college bound, which it is looking that way.
I can't say that about all my children they will take different paths.
__________________
Claudia in Southern California
Wife to George,
Mom to DD 14, DD 10, DD 7, DS 4, DS 2, 1 in heaven, and now due 5/11.
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Bookswithtea
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UC's. 
They are not even remotely favorable to homeschoolers. Weird, when you consider Stanford (rival) actually recruits homeschoolers.
Is there any chance dd might just decide not to attend a UC? That would simplify things, and I'm not convinced UC's really offer that much better of an education than anywhere else (I'm a UCR graduate from when it wasn't so hard to get in). From what I've heard, Cal State's are easier for homeschoolers to get into (thinking Long Beach, Cal Poly here).
I have also heard that its extremely difficult to get into a UC anymore, in general, because there are more people wanting to attend than there is room for them. I heard that it helps if you fall into a minority category (female, etc) and they expect transcripts to be in the exact format they want to see...not even remotely interested in out-of-the-box education or real life experiences. Coursework has to be exactly what they want to see, too.
My sil has her dd in a charter in So CA and there's a whole plan through the charter to make sure that she chooses courses that are "UC approved." Weird.
The simpler way into a UC would be to attend community college for 2 yrs and then transfer as a junior into a UC. I had *tons* of friends do this with RCC (Riverside) to UCR. And sometimes the competition isn't as stiff to apply as a junior as it is to apply as a freshman. In the end, the degree has the same name on it, kwim?
This would allow you to continue doing your own thing, not worry about a transcript at all, and she could enter on her grades/transcript at community college...which could be started either in her 11th or 12th year, to save time and possibly money, too.
__________________
Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Bookswithtea
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12stars wrote:
She is currently doing
Teaching Textbooks Pre Algebra she wanted to redo it again..sigh.. and she loves it by the way.
Science by Gravitas Press (she hates science so I thought this would be gentle on her and it has been)
History: from Great Books Academy Famous Men of the Middle Ages with some readers and Christ the King Lord of History as a spine.
Art by Barry Stebbing God and History
Lingua Mater Americana
Rosetta Stone Spanish
Student Writing Intensive by Pudewa
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On another note entirely, I thought Lingua Americana wasn't available yet???
__________________
Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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12stars
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Bookswithtea wrote:
UC's.
They are not even remotely favorable to homeschoolers. Weird, when you consider Stanford (rival) actually recruits homeschoolers.
Is there any chance dd might just decide not to attend a UC? That would simplify things, and I'm not convinced UC's really offer that much better of an education than anywhere else (I'm a UCR graduate from when it wasn't so hard to get in). From what I've heard, Cal State's are easier for homeschoolers to get into (thinking Long Beach, Cal Poly here).
I have also heard that its extremely difficult to get into a UC anymore, in general, because there are more people wanting to attend than there is room for them. I heard that it helps if you fall into a minority category (female, etc) and they expect transcripts to be in the exact format they want to see...not even remotely interested in out-of-the-box education or real life experiences. Coursework has to be exactly what they want to see, too.
My sil has her dd in a charter in So CA and there's a whole plan through the charter to make sure that she chooses courses that are "UC approved." Weird.
The simpler way into a UC would be to attend community college for 2 yrs and then transfer as a junior into a UC. I had *tons* of friends do this with RCC (Riverside) to UCR. And sometimes the competition isn't as stiff to apply as a junior as it is to apply as a freshman. In the end, the degree has the same name on it, kwim?
This would allow you to continue doing your own thing, not worry about a transcript at all, and she could enter on her grades/transcript at community college...which could be started either in her 11th or 12th year, to save time and possibly money, too.
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This is exactly it, that they don't even look at what you have done outside of the course work. It is petty in my opinion, but that is what I have to deal with. Everything they do has to revolve around a UC approved classes.
I think all charters now are formatting their classes to be college bound, which I don't mind. It is the content that I care about.
Our community colleges are soooo bogged down that is hard to get into classes anymore. They have cut down teaching times and scrapped many classes all together. That is besides the point though.
But you are right about the 2 years at RCC and transfering to UCR. I just wanted to keep all options open and not hinder her if in fact she is University bound.
__________________
Claudia in Southern California
Wife to George,
Mom to DD 14, DD 10, DD 7, DS 4, DS 2, 1 in heaven, and now due 5/11.
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12stars
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Oh and yes Lingua Mater Americana did come out ask Margot about it I bought it at the SCCHE conference directly from her. It is wonderful.
__________________
Claudia in Southern California
Wife to George,
Mom to DD 14, DD 10, DD 7, DS 4, DS 2, 1 in heaven, and now due 5/11.
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Martha in VA
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Claudia, you're not crazy. I'm thinking about it for my 8th grade dd as well. That's part of my reasoning for enrolling her in Kolbe this year.
__________________
Blessed wife & mom to
4dds,miracle son 4/09, 2 in heaven
My Conversion Blog
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Bookswithtea
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12stars wrote:
| Oh and yes Lingua Mater Americana did come out ask Margot about it I bought it at the SCCHE conference directly from her. It is wonderful. |
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I'll check it out. It was about 3-4 mos ago the last time I looked for it.
Thanks!
__________________
Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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ALmom
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Claudia and Books:
One minor point - Kolbe has changed even from when you were looking at them, books. Now they do accept at least some 8th grade classes for high school credit - not sure whether or not it has to be using their books or not so you'd have to check all that out, but I do know they allow some math and science to count towards high school. That is why I really emphasize talking to them the year before you join - they will tell you honestly what they do or do not do. They will also let you know if they have any changes in the works. Just last year they changed a lot about how you get honors credit - reducing the number of papers - ie kind of having a graduated system where you are not doing everything honors in freshman year and you can still get Summa credit. Like I said, I don't follow that part all that closely. Being in a church school state, we have our own school that provides our transcript.
Claudia, when you homeschooled your siblings, Kolbe's plans were frustrating without hardly any help at all for teachers. I was one of those who complained - and the next year, they started a revision of the plans. My plans for my current highschooler and my plans left over from my oldest are worlds apart in terms of support. I have no trouble grading. They are giving tons of background information in the notes section - the kind of stuff the teachers would do but they are realizing that parents aren't generally experts in every subject - at least not when they teach their first few  . They are providing a lot more of the grading support akin to Seton if you want it, though it is not mandatory. There is less need for it now, too, though because there are so many helps in what is expected from the paper topics - including a bullet of main points that they expect the child to have picked up on. The EES can be used for full grading or simply to give you suggestions. It all depends on what you want to do.
As far as accreditation, Seton's and Kolbe's educational accreditation are different. Seton is from the standard national organization that gives accreditation to your Catholic schools in diocese's etc. Kolbe is accredited through a private accrediting agency. They do this for 2 reasons that I know of - 1) They feel it is important for them to be accountable as well and 2) They want something more freedom to operate as a Catholic school with course improvements etc. They feel that national accreditation may eventually make you a slave to a prejudiced and broken system that does exist. 3) To support the independent schools in an effort to create some accountability free from govt. policy.
They will tell you quite honestly that their accreditation doesn't mean a lot to most Universities and as in the case you cite, it isn't always recognized. It doesn't mean it doesn't hold them to high standards - just that it isn't considered legit by a lot of folks.
It is just so important to ask all your questions to the folks you are considering using.
What the California folks are saying about Jr. College is quite interesting to me - but irrelevant. In AL they make it pretty tough for homeschoolers to get in after they graduate, but you can take tons of courses while in high school. My oldest with really good SAT scores had to get special permission (which will no longer be given) to take 1 math course after she graduated - even though her SAT score allowed her to chose any math course she wanted to take. She got into the University on full scholarship - actually was already admitted to the University when the Jr College gave us some headaches. Every region is so different.
There are plenty of ways to do things.
Janet
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Bookswithtea
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Thanks for the update on Kolbe and 8th grade, Janet. That was a huge sticking point for me when ds was that age. I like Kolbe's principle of subsidiary, and I like that they don't require that you use anything of theirs.
I forgot about the private accrediting agencies in CA (where both Kolbe and MODG are). Some of the private schools in CA use those, but like you said, the colleges don't really notice or care.
Honestly, I'm not sure they care about Seton's accreditation either. I think it would be more of an issue with a child wanting to attend Catholic high school at some point.
Junior college is huge in CA. There are tons of them, and there is no stigma associated with attending for 2 yrs before transferring in as a junior. I'm pretty sure that there are opportunities for taking classes while still in high school, but I think there are rules about the ages of the student.
I didn't know about what Claudia mentioned, class size and offerings decreasing and that they are harder to get in. I have some friends who have hs graduates attending and I hadn't heard that before. But maybe they got in before CA's huge budget problem when the economy got bad.
__________________
Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: I am already thinking about High School
