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Angel
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| Posted: Sept 08 2009 at 7:50am | IP Logged
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I'm interested in hearing how your unschooled (or "relaxed"-schooled) teens meet either state requirements or credit hour requirements for high school graduation.
My oldest ds is about to turn 13, and we live in NY. NY's hsing requirements require 108 hrs (actually, the requirements are given in minutes  ) in each of history/geo; science; English; and math; 54 hours over the course of 7th and 8th grade in both Art and Music; and "regular" instruction in PE, Practical Arts, and health... all to equal 990 hours a year/180 days of instruction. I have to submit a curriculum every year, 4 quarterly reports, and a yearly assessment (which will soon be standardized testing every year). My ds is not the most motivated of kids -- for anything -- and he is having a lot of trouble making 5.5 hours a day of stuff that would count as "school". If we didn't have these hourly requirements, I think I would relax quite a bit. But... we do, so  .
Anyway, I've been trying to help him manage his time by putting his interests into chart form and sitting down with him every week to help him plan his time. I am ambivalent about how this is going. I dread the planning (he does have special needs which make planning harder) because it takes so long and we're always arguing about time. Also, it seems that if I write down his interests and put books he might be interested in into "school" form, he loses all interest in them. If they become "required", he doesn't want to read them anymore/do the projects/etc.
I do think his special needs mean he needs to work on some basic areas every day, so we're not talking total unschooling here. But for other areas, like history and science, etc... I do wonder whether a different approach might work better. But then again, I also worry that he won't put in the time required by the state. I also worry that *basing* a teen's education on strewing (not just supplementing it with strewing) won't help him develop his own initiative and time management skills. I mean, if he's relying on me to put interesting books on the couch all the time. (I doubt I explained that well, but maybe some of my meaning comes through?)
He's also not real motivated to do traditional "boy" stuff -- sports, physical work, that kind of thing.
Anyway, how do those of you who unschool your teens deal with various requirements? How do you encourage them to take charge of their own time and education if they are not terribly motivated to do so, or if they tend to have just a few intense interests?
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Angela
Mom to 9, 7 boys and 2 girls
Three Plus Two
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4 lads mom
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| Posted: Sept 08 2009 at 11:08am | IP Logged
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I am anxiously awaiting replies 
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Mom of four brave lads and one sweet lassie
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: Sept 08 2009 at 1:16pm | IP Logged
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ya know, this is something I've always wondered about unschoolers, too. Not every state is like NY (btw,  to you...your requirements are tough!) but most states still have pretty specific guidelines for high school.
I'm hoping Theresa (Lapazfarm) will jump in and share here, especially since she's been in several states, but in the meantime, I'm wondering...what does your paperwork have to look like for the state? There are tons of ideas out there for more relaxed models that can still be written up very professionally, using the buzz words educators want to see to feel that their hoops have been jumped through.
The other thing that I often do is break down the requirements over a certain number of years, how many hours, what subjects, etc. Then I look for ways to spread things out and double up so that I am meeting requirements without overburdening my student. I am planning for my oldest dd's high school right now (I start planning a year ahead). She will follow Serendipity's Shakespeare Fridays for a yearlong literature credit. But I am counting the time spent watching Shakespeare theatre dvd's as "fine arts".  I've also overlapped her nature study for the first year with fine arts (also on Serendipity) because of the training in drawing and watercoloring.
54 hrs in art is actually just less than 2 hrs a week assuming a 30 week schoolyear, less with a 36 week schoolyear. I started with my less-than-motivated-to-study-fine-arts boy over a year ago with his interests. Guitar, cooking, carving, woodworking, etc. Then I built a series of units around each of them and tracked the hours spent on each one (I had to show 80 hrs since I wasn't using a curriculum at all). It takes some time to make it all look right, but it can be done.
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Angel
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| Posted: Sept 08 2009 at 4:58pm | IP Logged
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Well, I think art will be easy because he likes art, and I just count the time he spends drawing (or painting, whatever). I've actually gotten pretty good at writing educationese over the years, but the time requirements are what gets me. What concerns me right now is that if I take an interest he has and make it a "requirement" or develop a series of assignments around it, he totally loses interest; it just becomes something else he has to get done as quickly as he can so he can do something else I don't feel I can count as "school" (like building Pokemon decks.) If, however, I leave a book out on the couch, he is likely to sit and read the oddest things first thing in the morning, late at night... in his "free" time.
So I'd like to recover some of that interest, but of course I can't guarantee that he's not going to want to immerse himself in military history and only treat science marginally this year... or vice versa. And then there's the Pokemon thing. I'd like to find some way of getting him to manage his *own* time without so much input and redirection from me.
I kind of lost my cool with him this morning, and after that he had a good day, spending a lot of time drawing and doing archery. I just don't think repeating that every day sounds doable.
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Angela
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Three Plus Two
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: Sept 08 2009 at 7:11pm | IP Logged
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My high school boy absolutely hated it when I tried to use his interests to create school (art was the exception because there was no text, reading, or assignments other than creating involved). He always told me to "not make his passions into school." That may be a personality thing.
The other thing is that this child could have never managed his own time effectively. I know that some homeschooled high schoolers do it well, but mine didn't.
Since he seems to follow his passions if you don't interfere and strewing works well, maybe you could set up a journaling method and write down the hours and what he did each day under each topic that you have to log? And maybe just, every once in a while, when you see a pattern, toss in a narration or some other creative project that isn't too time consuming so that you can call it a "unit"???
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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lapazfarm
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Oh, I wish I had some advice, but I just don't, really. I don't have any state requirements except to do either end-of year testing or submit a teacher evaluation/portfolio review, so I don't keep hours. I am, however, interested in ds being able to get into a good college, so I am keeping track of what he does and making sure he takes on challenging work in a variety of subjects so I can make a nice convincing transcript when the time comes.
As for the motivational issues, I really can't help you there either. I wish I could, but I just don't have that problem with ds, fortunately. (Ask me again in a few years when dd hits high school and I'll be singing a different tune, I can assure you!LOL!)
I do wish you luck. The plans you posted on your blog looked really super. Are they not going as well as expected??
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Theresa
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Sept 08 2009 at 8:19pm | IP Logged
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If your son is into anime/cartooning, perhaps he could journal some of his experiences that way instead of with words only? I've seen this work successfully a couple of times (always with boys!) - somehow the combination of small pencil/pen drawings and a few words to explain them is more appealing to them.
Perhaps, too, a kind of weekly task list could help (so many math lessons per week, same with grammar, etc.) - he could complete them all at once or one per day or whatever, but you'd know he was working on those important, fundamental subjects...his way. It's perfectly okay to explain to him that you want to have all kinds of college/career options open for him as he reaches adulthood, but to do that, you have to make sure he does a few important things (like study math, grammar and some kind of literature). (Then, make sure he has a chance to see some hard-working folks on the job, in various career fields, so he knows there's a method to your madness. It only took me a couple of months of working fast food to realize that some of my colleagues there literally could not do any other kind of job...great motivator, especially when I saw how hard they worked and how serious they were about keeping their jobs.)
On the time management side, I think it all depends on what kind of career paths you think he might pursue. Allowing him to decide when to complete his assigned weekly tasks will be good...especially if he wants to go to college, where no one will tell him when or how much to study. On the other hand, if he's thinking about an apprenticeship or a military career, he needs to learn to accept direction...and you can structure your assignments with that in mind.
My own son is pretty unmotivated (even with college around the corner) and it's hard for me to sit back and watch him try to skate by. Now, at last, he is seeing that wasn't the best way to go, and he will have to structure the next few years based on the choices he made. (He always does what I ask or assign, but seldom goes beyond that, unless military history or some computer thing is involved.) I save the "have to push him into it" efforts for the really important things (Philmont Scout Ranch; community college class this year). He's strong-willed (hmmm...wonder why...  ) so I do try to pick my battles.
We did try hard to structure history and science, in particular, around his interests and preferences (online dissections, for ex., since he was very adamant about not cutting up animals). Even traditional schools allow a lot of leeway in these subject areas.
Keep in mind...strong-willed is good (strong-willed kids can just say No!), but it's challenging. I've had to let my son find out the hard way a few times what happens when you don't do the things you should. It hurts.
I have no idea if this rambling post will help you, but I hope it will reassure you a little. There are lots of teen boys out there just like your son. It might take him a while to find his way, but he'll find it...and he's lucky to have you for a mom, I can tell!
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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vmalott
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| Posted: Sept 09 2009 at 7:07am | IP Logged
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Ok, don't throw any tomatoes at me here. That required amount of time of 990 hours/180 is based on a 5.5 hour school day model of a brick and mortar school to ensure that the kids are being "educated" an adequate amount of time. We all know we at home are much more efficient than brick and mortar schools when it comes to educating our children. (My son is going part time to Jr. high this year and he is amazed at just how much class time is wasted on things other than learning.) Here in Ohio we have to submit the "assurance" that the student will be educated for "900 hours" each year, but we don't have an actual break-down of hours/minutes per subject area like NY (thank goodness).
So, how do you work within these requirements? Well, first I'd be searching the net for unschooling in New York to see what others have done to jump through the hoops. Then I'd give the state what it wants to see and do whatever I wanted. Do you have to have a detailed account for every minute spent geared towards academic pursuits? If not, then I wouldn't worry about that schoolish requirement.
Ack, I got distracted by my little one and have lost my train of thought. I hope to post more on this. After working on plans for my high schooler all summer (something I'm not required to do), I'm going through my own semi-angst over allowing myself to become more and more schoolish.
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Valerie
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Angel
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| Posted: Sept 09 2009 at 7:49am | IP Logged
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lapazfarm wrote:
I do wish you luck. The plans you posted on your blog looked really super. Are they not going as well as expected??
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 Well, um... he's dragging his feet a bit. I've been trying to sit down with him on the weekends to plan out the coming week. He is the kind of kid who "likes to know what's coming up", in his words, but unfortunately I think all my kids have inherited my inability to follow lesson plans, even ones we've written ourselves.
Theresa, are you keeping track of hours for your ds's high school activities? I just finished re-reading From Homeschool to College and Workby Alison McKee and she recommends not keeping track of hours, which of course is my problem... but she also recommends sorting what the kids do into subject categories after they do it. So, for instance, when her son was heavily interested in fly-fishing and spent hours investigating it, they made note of the science involved in the study (entomology, the physics of casting, etc.) and sorted those books under "science".
When I talk to my ds about the legal requirements I do try to let him know those things that Valerie said (no tomatoes here!  ): 5.5 hours a day comes from brick and mortar schools. I'm sure the spirit of the law means kids "ought" to be sitting down doing academic work for 5.5 hours a day, but I', trying to emphasize to my ds that he just needs to do SOMETHING.
I did run across this paragraph online, also by Alison McKee:
***Q: We are considering the use of traditional curriculum for our unschooled teens and pre-teen. This is not easy for us but all three children aren't doing much of anything that we consider to be productive. Do you have any suggestions?
A: Just before our son entered his teens, and for a year or so more, his life seemed non-productive. I was comforted by my knowledge that teen and pre-teen developmental changes take significant "inner" work. If you are willing, simply be sure that your teens are actively involved in activities which motivate them when they are in active states of mind. This meaningful work or study is important because, in the future, it will help keep interests in learning alive. Standardized curriculum, at this stage of the game, may squash any learning interests.***
From
FAQ Unschooling high school and college
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Angela
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lapazfarm
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Well, if you really want to ditch the plans and have a more unschooling approach, here is how you might go about it. It is something I have done in the past with my son and still do pretty much.
Tell your ds that the hours between 9 and 12 are "work time." After he finishes whatever "must do's" you have for him (like perhaps math?)he can do whatever work he pleases, but it must be productive and worthy . During this time there will be no Pokemon, no idleness, no (insert whatever it is he tends to do to waste time).He can stop for a snack break once during this time, whenever he chooses. Then offer him a clear list of activities and a stack of books to choose from that you both consider worthy pursuits. Make sure you offer a variety--books, educational games, projects, etc in addition to more traditional stuff.
Tell him that if he needs help choosing you will be glad to help, but he cannot just "not" do it. Have one fallback item ready in case he just absolutely cannot get motivated---a simple math workbook, a story he is working on, etc, so that if he cannot make a choice, he can always pick it up and work on that.
Then tell him that he has time in the afternoon (1 or 2 hours) to either read a book of his choice, do art, or work on his archery/outdoor projects/scouting, or a combination of these things. Once a week he can choose to watch an educational DVD during this time.Be sure to have something available. I have a whole list of documentaries in a wide range of subjects (history,art, science, travel) that I put on my watch instantly Netflix queue that the kids know they can freely choose from (if it is raining, they are not feeling well, I am busy to help them with something, etc).
I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for or if it is helpful or not. I personally like this method because it offers choice and freedom, while still making the point of spending time productively.
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Theresa
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Leonie
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I don't have to keep hours ar anyhing - so I just do an online log - St Anthony's Academy.
The Christian Unschooling blog has this post, that may be of help.
And I suggested some resources for unschooling high school at the Unschooling Catholics
blog.
These may or may not be of any help.
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Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: unschooling teens and state requirements
