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Barb.b
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| Posted: May 25 2009 at 7:26am | IP Logged
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So my question iS - how neccessary is it for homescoolers to have AP, SAT II or clep to "prove" to colleges they did the work. That said no colleges we are looking for require these tests as proof. But some people I hear say they are needed for homeschoolers to be competetive. It seems to me we could go test crazy in Junior year! How many tests have others here have their kids take? He took SAT physics this year and got a 570. Is that good enough to put on his transcript? With taking SAT I and ACT next year, I fear putting other tests in will force us to simple prep for the tests next year instead of learn!
I really hate the guidance counselor part of my job as homeschooling Mom. Any help is appreciated!!
ps. I here about clep that they are easier. I also hear not as many colleges will take them for credit. However, we don't want them for that, just for "proof" of doing the classwork. So if we HAVE to do extra tests maybe that is they way to go?
Barb
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StephanieA
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| Posted: May 25 2009 at 8:16am | IP Logged
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I can speak for the CLEPS. They are certainly easier than AP, both setting up to take and the test themselves. That said, some colleges aren't so impressed. At some colleges, it will depend on the score that a student makes (if they are impressed - even if they don't accept CLEP). All colleges are going to require either the ACT or SAT. Those are the ones that grant scholarships.
Our first 3 kids are going to the local state university and some CLEPS count. We use CLEPS to by pass crudely classes or some classes that this particular student will not major in, but are required for those interdisciplinary studies. We just work in the particular CLEP after that student finishes the regular HS course by studying further to pass the CLEP. Or some CLEPS are summerwork (eg. Sociology and Human Development). I won't "waste" precious HS time on these subjects. I just buy a college book, have them read about 1/2 of it, use the CLEP study guide, and pray they pass 
Blessings,
Stephanie
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Martha
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| Posted: May 25 2009 at 9:30am | IP Logged
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okay...
I agree homeschoolers should take at least some tests to be competetive. But that does NOT equal takign them as "proof" of highschool level work.
The ACT and or SAT are required by nearly every college. they are a must. the better the score, the better your kid looks academicly, but scroe on ACT/SAT is not the only thing colleges look at.
A lot depends on the college you are considering. Some require 1 or more SATsub tests, some take CLEPs, some want AP courses. All of those things are not to proove what you know in highschool. They are to make your child stand out academicly from the stack of other students on the desk. They are to save funds on college courses (for example a CLEP in history can mean not paying for that course at college, same for AP). They can also help in getting scholarships. Subject tests help the college see the students interests and strengths.
Most kids do have a significant portion of their junior year spent taking various tests, but they are still learning plenty. And some families view the later part of junior year as a course in college preparation and feel they are mostly done with highschool by that time. Other than english and a couple dual enrollment courses, the rest of their class load is electives and such.
I don't know if that helps or not.
ETA: I've not graduated any kiddos yet. And there are a LOT of different approaches to graduating highschool and dealing with college. I'm sure some other ladies will have different perspectives from me. I just wanted to make clear that you don't have to "proove" what you have done in highschool via those tests, but that there are other good reasons to consider them. 
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Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
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Tonya
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| Posted: May 25 2009 at 9:44am | IP Logged
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It really matters what college your son wants to attend. My oldest daughter went to Franciscan and her ACT or SAT were what mattered. If you want any chance at a scholarship, you have to have extremely high test scores. The subject tests and the AP exams wouldn't help you get in but if you scored really high, they could help in the scholarship area. My second daughter applied to many different schools. The large state schools basically look at SAT or ACT scores and your transcript (which you need to look as professional as you possibly can). She was accepted at both University of Pittsburgh and West Virgina University. She didn't have any subject tests and she didn't get her one AP test score until after she graduated. She scored a composite of 27 on the ACT. She did not get any scholarships to Pitt but got a full ride to WVU as a piano major. (Not a lucrative career but the education is free!) The smaller schools such as Elizabethtown University and Baldwin Wallace were fine with just the transcript and ACT scores. University of Dayton and Duquesne both wanted a bit more information such as a scope and sequence of her classes and high school reading lists. She was eventually accepted at every school she applied to and got some scholarship money from all except Pitt.
My son is a junior and he has different expectations. He either wants go to a upper tier school or the Honors Program at a state school. He just completed his eighth AP exam and he has taken three subject tests. We were able to talk quite a while to the the director of the Honors College at Penn State and he said the my son wouldn't be able to get into the Honors program with just his SAT test scores (which are very high) as a homeschooler. He needs to have other validation such as the AP tests and the Subject tests. He would be able to get into Penn State with his test scores alone, though.
You might want to search the schools that your son is thinking of attending. Also, if you "google" SAT subject test scores, that might give you an idea if you want to submit your son's score.
The bottom line is that you can get into colleges as a homeschooler without all of the AP, Subject tests, and CLEP exams. Your son really needs to concentrate on the ACT and SAT tests. They are the biggest indicator of what schools he will get into.
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Tonya
Mom to 2 daughters (24 and 21), 4 sons (19, 15, 12, 12), and 3 in heaven
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ALmom
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| Posted: May 27 2009 at 1:10pm | IP Logged
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Another point - I cannot access AP tests so that is a moot point anyway. I will check again with local schools for later children, if they seem to show an aptitude in an area as they begin their highschool coursework. It is nice but not essential. One school that typically requires AP test scores accepted SAT II subject tests in lieux of the AP tests that are unavailable to homeschoolers in our area (basically schools are not required to make them available to anyone outside the school so until there is some sort of mandate so everyone has access, the schools generally will accept a substitute if you talk with them. I know U Penn accepted SAT II from someone here because the AP was not available to them).
Every college/University has its own set of admission standards so it is really helpful to know by Jr year the 5 or so top choices and make sure you meet whatever their requirements are. That is easy to say - but my experience has been that my children change their minds on a dime at times so I do try to build in a little flexibility in case they suddenly change course.
It would be nice to have a lot of the core stuff out of the way early on - typically obnoxious courses in college are literature (sometimes), pyschology, sociology and Biology, sometimes history and lots of the honors courses can get to be politically correct and/or pornographic - that has been our experience anyways. However, with some careful planning, you can get some pretty good courses to fulfill requirements and be sure to have a network to know which professors are good (both as teachers and the degree of objectionable material covered). It is easier to be picky and selective when you are only doing one or two courses than when you are trying to fit it in with your major requirements so duel enrollment, or taking summer courses at home and transferring credits are other options to meet the same goals. Other students that have been there can generally advise. Looking at books on the shelf can give some idea, but isn't always an indication of the professor. I took a history course where every book on the list was rather bizzare, but the professor was solid and we hardly touched those books in class. They were examples of various historical trends and the meat of the class was from the professor's lectures.
In hindsight, it might have been nice to be able to take some AP tests to have credit out of the way. But since that wasn't an option for us, our oldest just took some of those courses while living at home before heading off. She got it in writing that these would be transferrable ahead of time. She also took one summer to knock out her science requirements using a pre approved transfer system. This was half the cost and with courses not in her major. She also takes maximum credit hours each year - would be nice to have a lighter load sometimes but we'd rather not have to pay an extra year.
A lot depends on how good a tester your child is, as well. Some of mine do quite well on the SAT. Others, I'm concerned that the eyes will plain wear out filling in all the bubbles. We'll see what happens as we get closer.
The other point I'd make is that requirements change from year to year. Always check 9th grade and again Jr year, looking at a sampling of places that might be likely in 9th and at the more specific places you've narrowed down in Jr. year.
For instance, my rising 9th grader is all about flying and becoming a pilot. We will look at Emberly, and military academies (particularly AF) and probably a sampling of some top notch University with solid science/aviation programs. My son doesn't necessarily want to go the military route, but I know financially that might be the most realistic so we won't close those doors. He may need to go somewhere else for 1 year (ie college) before applying to maximize chances of being accepted to an academy especially since he is a little more introverted and may need a little more time to find his service/leadership niches. We are looking at things outside the home that might interest him both because it is good for him and might be needed if he does decide on the military route - also some sort of verifiable athletics. We looked at AF Academy suggestions for ideas but know of folks who have been way more creative in what they've done and more directly related to their field. My son plans to get his pilot license working and paying for his flight instruction at a local airport. I will probably have him do some SAT II tests in the science area at some point if he continues along these lines and seems to have the aptitude to do well.
For all my children, I try to keep tabs on the Jr college requirements for admission (these are tougher in our state than the Univeristy and tons less flexible) so that they will have options to take some core (non- major courses) at the lower fee if they want to. I'd prefer they get coursework at the local University and toy with duel enrollment - for my very gifted science child, this is probably the route he'll go in high school. I tried to encourage some of this with current Jr./Sr. in at least foreign language but it just wasn't what she wanted so we dropped it. If she goes to college, she'll end up having to take this again, but that is her choice.
My current Jr./Sr in high school, at the moment, has no desire for college so we won't bother with the SAT II tests but she will take college admission tests (ACT / SAT)just in case and her coursework is sufficient to get her in to a good college if she changes her mind. In her 9th year, we were looking more into liberal arts with her strong history and writing. She, at the time, hated science. Now she wants to be a health care specialist and is doing extra science. I'm glad we kept our science serious from the start, even if it wasn't an interest as it gave us built in flexibility. It took a good tutor to spark the interest, however. Right now she is talking to military recruiters but this child is particularly intense in the investigation phase and at the end of the day may end up doing something totally different. She was going to take 5 years to do high school, but hit this year and is just ready to be on with her life and is taking those extra math and science this summer so she can graduate in 4 years. Either way is fine with me.
The one consistent thing I've seen is that change of mind seems inevitable in a number of mine who may need some time and life experience to really discover where God is leading them. Some clearly know what they want to do, but at younger ages aren't as realistic about how to get there whereas others have no idea what they want to do or are interested in everything and change gears every year or so. Even if you do not do every single test, there is another alternative if you are creative or depending on where your children are most likely to go. I try to guide the process but increasingly hand it over to them as they progress through high school.
Some of it depends on how adament you or your child are about Ivy League. Those are the ones most likely to require AP courses but no one gets credit anyways. Some depends on your region of the country and what is most likely.
Anything to offer that stands out and verifies your assigned grades and your child's ability to lead or interact with people is a plus in terms of the scholarship application process. You don't have to do it only one way, though.
Janet
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Barb.b
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| Posted: May 27 2009 at 3:17pm | IP Logged
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Thank you all! I was letting my mind run away with me and get a bit stressed. Back to reality - I see I don't have to prove anything. Just see what could make him stand out.
Janet - my ds wants to be a pilot too. He actually is very interested in the AF academy and also knows that the competition is stiff so it may not happen. He also has at least 5 if not more colleges in mind already for his interest in engineering. He took the SAT's this year just to see and did pretty decent. However is studying to retake them in June to get the critical reading up a bit to AF academy standards! I think he would rather get done with the SAT now and work on ACT prep next year in his junior year!
So far no school he is looking at requires sat II tests. However - We think the SAT math II may be good to take. I won't have him do it until the second half of next year though. He got a 650 in SAT I math so I THINK he could also test well in SAT II math since math is one of his favorite subjects.
As far as AP - he saw that AP history was over 3 hours with essays too and said - NO WAY! We will stick to SAT II I think and see how it goes.
By the way - I love the new score choice for SAT. If any of his SAT II's aren't up to par - no college needs see them. It takes a bit of the stress off!
Thanks for the impute. My dh doesn't really like to discuss these things with me!
So far testing schedule is - SAT I in June of this year. ACT sometime next year (Junior) and SAT II in physics and Math II early spring next year in case he wants to retest those in MAY/June that year.
Janet - yes a sport seems VERY important to the AF academy! Thanks goodness here they still have a rec. type leque in baseball for 15-18 year olds. Also have you looked into the Civil Air Patrol? My ds loves it and has thrived there. He now teaches a class to fellow cadets once per month and on an occassional training day. He is also going to two camps with them this summer. One to fly glider planes and the othe to fly powered planes. Both will let kids solo if the instructors think they are ready. They can be expensive but the civil air patrol is great for showing us were to get scholarships to them!
Barb
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: All these tests!
