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Martha
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| Posted: April 23 2008 at 9:13am | IP Logged
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okay being the spreadsheet queen that I am, I made a spreadsheet comparing core materials to core materials for each subject/grade for these three.
I've been very happy with my seton/chc/misc mix up to now.
but on looking at seton's highschool I noted two things that bother me, more importantly I think will bother my oldest
1. all 4 years is pretty much american and british history and literature. nothing against those subject, but do we really need FOUR years of them?
2. they seem weak in science. no labs. apologia (which I'm not fond of) and only 2 credits required, one being biology.
I just don't see that as college prepatory.
So I'm thinking of switching for highschool to Kolbe because:
1. their science looks much more advanced and you can get 4 years of labs! (he's very excited about that! can't wait to finish 8th grade so he can get to it!  )
2. I like how the lit/history/english studies are combined and I think my son will greatly enjoy the subjects.
3. they use something other than saxon math (which my son greatly did NOT enjoy)
I'd like to know if anyone can compare the lesson plans and reading layout of kolbe to the sylabus of MODG? Do you get to keep the lesson plans with kolbe? Is the sylabus of modg just a "read this" kind of thing? I didn't find the online samples to be very helpful? 
I like that with seton when you pay for lessons - you get lessons, not do this page today and do that page tomorrow. there's actually meaty need to know stuff in them. (don't you just hate to spend that kind of money just to read continue to the next page?)
Can you hand either the kolbe or modg plans to the student and expect them to follow it on their own for the most part?
which religion plans do you like better?
thank you for answering any of my many questions that you can.
the cost of either plan will be far more than seton (all those whole books are great, but add up big time, kwim?), so my dh says if I'm going to use them we should start setting aside whatever little funds we can now.
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Willa
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| Posted: April 23 2008 at 10:02am | IP Logged
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I don't think I could do a comparison spreadsheet -- I admire you!
I've used the MODG and Kolbe syllabi both.
With MODG, I know you can just hand the syllabi to the student. This is exactly how I did it with my oldest. He would come to me whenever it told him to discuss the material with his teacher.
MODG is a lot of reading and a fair amount of papers and discussions. Particularly in ninth grade, there are study guides for many of the books with discussion questions. There are many days when the student only reads in some subjects, but there is a fair amount of other types of work -- actually, more than my family actually used.
With Kolbe, I THINK that now you can just hand the syllabus to the student. I have only seen their preliminary daily guides when they were first changing over a few years ago, but their goal was to make it more student- and mother of many-friendly.
Their syllabus has "key points" of the day's reading, and a paper per week for both literature and history. There is a LOT of writing. I sometimes used the essay topics as discussion topics.
I liked Kolbe's religion plans a bit better. Back when we were using it, at least, both programs used Father Laux's series. But Kolbe also had a Religious Classics component so the children would read actual spiritual classics integrated with the time period. And Kolbe's use of the Laux books (which are pre-Vatican II, very Thomistic and rigorous but I know some people think they are dry) is supplemented with corresponding readings from the CCC.
MODG did have some supplemental religion books, but more modern and less integrated with the historical course, which I did not like as much, though probably it would be a plus to some.
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Chari
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| Posted: April 23 2008 at 3:10pm | IP Logged
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well put, Willa! 
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Martha
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| Posted: April 24 2008 at 11:37am | IP Logged
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okay folks.
I'm doing something I've never done before.
I had enrolled in Seton's science 8 course, which uses All Things Great and Small. I wasn't impressed with the text, but I had hoped the lesson plans would make up for it. (The lesson plans are very meaty for english and reading - so I had hopes for the same with their science.)
Well they weren't.
I wasn't all the impressed with Seton's highschool program. (I've always enjoyed Seton Press materials though, although I usually don't enroll.) Problem is there aren't many Seton Press materials in their highschool level and I don't think their graduation requirements are all that strong or college prepatory. To be honest, I wasn't much impressed with any ofthe catholic providers and that's why I'd decided to just use what I did like of seton and do my own thing or college dual enrollment for the reast.
But then a little birdy told me Kolbe had completely over-hauled their entire science program, extensively in high school. Yeah, new plans woohoo whatever is what I thought. BUT they really have! I think they are the only provider offerring FOUR year of honers level science ALL WITH LABS! 
so I'm sending my science 8 from seton back for a refund. I won't get a total refund and Kolbe's program is going to cost me an additional $100 bucks (that I should probably spend on gorceries or something other than more books) over what my refund from Seton will be. But I think it will be a much better program and a more enjoyable program for my oldest?
ug. I feel like all I ever do is second guess myself.
I also want to say I was very impressed, read as shocked, that the science advisor stayed up until after 9pm my time answering dozens of questions back and forth on their board last night. Frankly, I didn't think I'd get any response from faculty and if I did, it wouldn't be until after lunch today.
And I like their lesson plan samples. I showed them to my son and he said, "Oh those look like the spreadsheets you make - that's easier to read than seton's" Yeah he might be my boy alright.
anyhow. I guess I'm just needing affirmation that I'm okay doing this... which I know no one else can give me. does anyone else feel like every day after the first kid's 10th birthday is nothing but second guessing yourself? 
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Martha
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Willa
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| Posted: April 24 2008 at 1:44pm | IP Logged
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Martha wrote:
And I like their lesson plan samples. I showed them to my son and he said, "Oh those look like the spreadsheets you make - that's easier to read than seton's" Yeah he might be my boy alright. |
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Yes, I LOVED the way their forms are laid out. Haven't seen Seton's (since oldest, now a junior in college, was in third grade, anyway). But when Kolbe changed theirs from linear format to the nice boxes, I was thrilled.
Another form geek here  .
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ALmom
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| Posted: April 24 2008 at 4:27pm | IP Logged
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Martha:
I have used the new lesson plans for 9th and 10th. You will be happy and the best part is that even if the curriculum isn't a perfect fit, they have no problem with you modifying. They really do live by their advertisement that they consider themselves the support to the parent who has primary responsibility.
There is a whole lot more historical background and sequencing support with the history now. They should have the 11th done in time for my dd . The newest lesson plans are way, way more helpful than the older ones (my first year with them with my oldest we used older plans). They now have paper topic guides so that on history or literature papers, they include a sheet bulleting some of the things they would look for. They include tests, some study aids, etc. You are free to modify any and all of this as you see fit unless you are trying for the Summa diploma. They do give options for almost all the areas they have, and you are free to substitute your own options as well.
Not only do they give you lots of support, the lesson plans will alert you in science ahead of time to issues that are controversial or need fuller treatment from the Catholic point of view (and this is explained in pretty good detail in the plan that the student can read) - and their lesson plans will assign reading in church documents to go along with the text. The alert you to areas in reading, too, that may require parental discretion - ie a number of the Greek plays. I so appreciate them being so upfront and leaving discernment issues up to me.
They have worked with me to simplify the Biology course and expedite it for our dd who absolutely hates science. They work with us with any modifications we've wanted to do. You will find them delightfully helpful and flexible. I have been pleased. The only thing I would suggest is that you preview the history and lit reading - some of it is a bit dicey and you would want to discern its appropriateness for your own child. They encourage this and actually will point out in the lesson plan some of the topics that come up. They also have a wonderful audiotape support for the Greek and Roman years that my dd found helpful.
Also, you will laugh, but when I go to write lesson plans (I do rewrite Kolbe's even though it is broken out by day because I do some substitutions and my children cannot remember which version of stuff they are following where )I line up Kolbe, MODG, any other lesson plans I have (ie some RC History stuff) and pick and choose from what I think will work best with my particular child. And still it hasn't been a problem at all. The science advisor, Megan, e-mailed me back and forth for several weeks as I tried to settle on what in the world to do science wise with my 11 yo science fan. She pointed me to on-line resources, threw out some great ideas and was very, very helpful. She is also the math advisor and they are switching soon to Singapore Math at least as an option in elementary. We laughed about Saxon and the significant digits thing. I am more math so I tend to take things out to extremes like Saxon but she was able to give me a succinct summary of the significant digit rules for my children in science. I am looking forward to the latest option in high school math, but as always, if you want to continue with Saxon or use a different Math program, it is up to you. Their science can be anywhere from basic science to AP prep (without the AP prep designation of course)and they help you know how to modify things to suit your child.
The booklet, Parent as Counselor, is, I believe, one of the single most useful resources when you are trying to navigate how to make sure you are doing all those testing things and other stuff to prepare child for college. This comes free with your registration of a highschooler, but others can order it for just a few bucks.
The Latin advisor helped me discern that we had, in fact, done the equivalent of 2 years of Latin considering our tutor. The History and English advisors have helped me revise their program to combine Greek and Roman years into one with one child. With the other, we were transferring her Jr. Year (from Seton) and they helped me navigate which of their courses would be most foundational and we pulled together a program for this dd using various quarters from all different years combined with some reading off the Seton lit list.
I was put in touch with someone who used an older edition of Jacobs and had already modified instructions to work with the older text. It saved me tons of time as she e-mailed me her plans. I have called about literature and grammar questions. I have used their enhanced evaluation service to get help in evaluating my high schooler's papers. Celeste was unbelievable - doing just what I asked and giving really good writing pointers to our dd. We only handed in about 4 papers for evaluation but I feel it was worth it for me as I just don't know how to evaluate writing. In those interactions, I was able to watch and see how it was done and then learn a few things to help me be a better teacher/evaluator. She sent me resource sheets and checklists to help me gain confidence in evaluationg my child myself. I plan to use EE again but not all quarters - maybe 1st and then 4th. By the way, they will evaluate papers you write on materials that aren't even in their lesson plans so we submitted a paper our daughter did following Perelandra's guide.
While I don't worry about getting a transcript from them, my oldest dd could have graduated with the magna diploma and my current dd is on track to do the same if we wanted. (I'd just have to send in the sample work)
There are also a lot of helpful forms for planning highschool.
And yep, everday after our children's 12th or 13th birthday is second guessing for us - and for a few we second guess much sooner  .
My oldest dd was stifled by 1 year of Seton high school. Her biggest complaint was that she wasn't allowed to think. They only wanted her to regurgitate. We were in danger of having some real spiritual problems if we didn't switch and I was desperate at the time. I spent hours on the phone with Kolbe and they were so, so patient with me that first year. I've added more children to our enrollment every year. Whenever a child reaches a point that I think I'm no longer totally confident about what I'm doing, we just enroll them in Kolbe. It has worked very, very well for us. Hope you find the same.
Edit: Yes, you get to keep the lesson plans. However, I accidently gave an old test to a dd using the new program and the AK didn't match . I'd advised labeling copyright date or something if you store and save to avoid such confusions!
Janet
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5athome
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| Posted: April 25 2008 at 9:29am | IP Logged
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Martha
Thank you for the info about Kolbe's science. We are just finishing one ds in 9th with Seton. I have also found Seton's science offerings to be rather dismal so I am glad to get the Kolbe information.
Overall, we have been pleased with Seton 9. The English & Grammer/Composition courses have been really meaty - tons of different writing assignments/book analyses/book reports/research report/etc. The requirements for graduation might have changed since you last checked - there is only 1 Lit course required and 3 History and their offerings include American/British/and World. We do math as an independent study course with them so I don't think you are locked into Saxon if you prefer an alternate math program. I am not trying to push Seton but just wanted to clarify what we have found for highschool.
Again, thanks for the Kolbe info!
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MacBeth
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| Posted: April 25 2008 at 10:16am | IP Logged
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Hey Martha!
We used some of Kolbe's suggestions for lit and history, without enrolling (just not me, you know?), but Libby's future college roommate is a soon to be Kolbe grad, and is a lovely, literate and engaging girl.
I know it's not scientific spread-sheet-type info, but I thought it might help.
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Martha
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| Posted: April 25 2008 at 2:22pm | IP Logged
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no it's not - it's better!
oh I still like a LOT of Seton Press stuff, so push all you want.
I just really think 4 years lit/english, 4 math, 4 science, and 4 history plus foreign language is a very basic standard and so far Kolbe is the only one that even comes close to a chance of meeting my expectations.
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10 Bright Stars
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| Posted: April 25 2008 at 8:13pm | IP Logged
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Interesting dicussion because I found myself exploring Kolbe again yesterday after not having used them since my now 7th grader was in 3rd grade. A lot has changed and things looked very interesting. I am currently enrolled in Seton this year (well, my 4 oldest are) and I have reached a level of feeling burnt out and "behind" all the time. I am sure it is not totally the programs fault, but I do find some things rather dry. God bless them for their work and offerings of course, and their religion courses are just wonderful. So, having said that, sometimes I think you just need a change. I wondered though how much" fiddling around" a homeschool Mom can do and not reek havoc with her child's transcripts etc. I think it is fun, even expected, for moms to switch styles, curriculums, do it yourself etc. when the children are younger, but as they get older (my eldest will be entering 8th grade in the fall) do you really need to buckle down and get "serious" and stick with one provider? I just wondered about that got a little nervous. Should you stop "changing" at a certain point in your child's education? Thoughts?
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ALmom
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| Posted: April 26 2008 at 2:35am | IP Logged
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Well, I wouldn't advise changing curriculum providers a bunch in high school like we did with our oldest. The switching in high school was frustrating to her - but honestly it took us that long to find what fit for us and we had no choice. She is still doing very well in college and we really like each other still - honestly.
Were there gaps in her education? Yep. But in all honesty, I can say the gaps would have been much worse and in more serious matters without switching. Does this mean Seton was a horrible program? Of course not - it just was not right for her at all and on top of that, it really wasn't a good fit with me either. We changed and I know we did the right thing for our family.
I know there is a lot of criticism of jumping around or changing too much - but I do think it is important to clarify what is meant here. Yes, doing knee jerks every year is not the best way to educate, but being flexible and discerning enough to alter a program to fit you is essential. When something is a really bad fit, you have to change even if it isn't ideal. Of course you try to be prudent, pray about and discuss any contemplated changes and try to avoid being in continual change. But sometimes you just have to change even if you just did. We thought Seton would be perfect because my dd wanted detailed plans and Seton has the most detailed plans of anyone and things spelled out so she'd know when she was done and what was expected. We even did a single course with them the previous year to "make sure." In 10th we just both grew more and more stressed and hated it. I know for a variety of reasons that despite all our efforts to be "wise", it was an absolutely horrible fit for us. We had to change.
We were able to do so without having our transcript look like a mess because I just listed all her courses with our cover school and never even used the name Seton on the transcript. Even if it had left our transcript looking like a mess, we had to change.
I also think it is natural to reassess at various milestones - when a child reaches school age, entering middle school years and again before high school. These are all normal times to have significant change in schooling even if your child were in a brick school setting. I don't think it is a big deal to change here. I also think that knowing more what inclinations your child has, will naturally redirect you. A certain amount of getting used to different ways of doing things is helpful, so I guess I really have a hard time with thinking you have to be with the same provider for 12 years of school. I do like to have a good feel by 8th grade and then stay with the same structure through all 4 years of high school, but if something is really, really a bad fit and not working, then you have to change even if you are in the middle of high school. I'd prefer to change in 8th. Some questions you might ask are: Is my child ready to move on to higher level thinking skills than this provider offers? Does my child have an inclination in certain subject areas that will need a more thourough handling? Is my child ready or needing an exposure to more ideas or varying points of view? Does my child simply need to experience a different approach to subject matter - for interest or to make it more rigorous or at a deeper thinking level? Does my child need more space to express his/her own ideas without feeling that they are being silenced but are, instead, led to appropriate/correct conclusions. Is my child being exposed to the church's teaching directly or only in some summarized form by the provider? Do I have the flexibility or the time to make sure this is included even if the provider does not do it directly? Does my child need understanding in struggles with isolation - ie will a provider understand a need to keep balance while still maintaining a good academic program. Will they appreciate or downplay a child's particular talents - ie if my child is very talented in athletics or the fine arts will these be viewed as valuable or will they be viewed as simply a distraction from getting work done?
It makes sense to investigate thouroughly and ask lots of questions and pray before jumping because you do really want to avoid having 4 different programs for high school (we had 3 with our oldest).
As far as flexibility in the program itself and changing or deviating from the provider's plan, I know there is some angst among many that you end up with too many holes or not enough consistency. I do think there is a certain matter of integrity - ie you are not just shaking your shoulders, oh, well we never got to ... but giving credits anyways. I don't think anyone here does that - there is work at an appropriate level for high school credit given. I like to have a little bit of guidance because I tend to be indecisive and my children detect that and have angst from my angst. Others seem better off doing it all on their own.
I do think that changing what is used or assignments in a plan is normal - and to be expected. Even classroom teacher's modify from the plan based on the particular class or better ways of getting the same information across. I have a plan from Kolbe - I see the goals as they are clearly stated. I am capable of adjusting or substituting material to fit my child while still generally following goals that I agree with. If I have doubts, I can talk it out with the folks there. With Kolbe, they've even helped me do it.
I think there are those who are more naturally gifted in knowing when to change and when not to. I needed a bit of support to help me make prudent decisions and a willingness to discuss with me what their goals were in having something in a plan. Then I could decide if that was an important goal (maybe a particular child has already achieved this and we don't need to do so much here) for us and whether or not we could achieve it more efficiently some other way.
Of course you don't want to change something everytime it gets a bit difficult and certain high strung temperments can make something seem like a disaster when it isn't so of course you have to be prudent and not change at every glitch. However, I don't believe we should fear modifying or changing things either. Everyone has to do a certain amount of modifying to teach from strengths to build weaknesses. Often your own talents will serve in a much better way with some flexibility to change. I like having a bit of a reality check before I change something, but even though we modify many times during a year, my children are not suffering for this. Yes, I do tend to tweak and change more with my elementaries during the year and most of the changing on my high schoolers is with the plans before we start the year and not so much after starting the year, I think it is more because I've had longer to really learn how they learn best and make fewer bad choices finally. Also they communicate more and have a better idea of what works as well and we communicate that all as we are doing the summer planning. They like more consistency during the year. We still adjust to take advantage of opportunities, etc.
If you are able to anticipate the need to move on to something a bit different even though it has served you well to this point, then you are avoiding a lot of jumping around later. I think that knowing your child, yourself and finding something you can work with (whether it is totally on your own or with a provider)makes a lot of difference in stress.
I think that this is different than changing everything all the time. No provider, no matter how wonderful, will be able to suit the child like I do. Even classroom teachers will modify how they teach according to the particular class they have. Often they do the same thing I do - look at the goals and things covered and then decide on a better way to teach them than the textbook.
Most children switch teachers and schools from time to time - 8th grade is a normal transition time anyways so I don't see a great problem jumping then. I do know my children all prefer to stay with one way of doing things through high school. We have found what works for us. Hopefully, you guys are finding a good fit for your families as well.
Janet
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Martha
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| Posted: April 26 2008 at 9:43am | IP Logged
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Well ...
This first child o mine like all first children is the guinia pig. Who knows? 4 years from now you ladies may need to offer comfort to me for all my regrets on this topic. Hope now, but it doesn't take long in parenting to accept that we all go with the grace of God and not a whole lot else with these first borns.
I tend to plan backwards. If I know I want them to graduate highschool with a certain level of education under their belt, then that dominos backward to what I need to look at doing each year leadingup to that point.
I may be naive, but I really don't care about transcripts. I figured I'd take what we have and place it all on one transcript. So he might 4 different course transcripts from Seton, Kolbe, community college, or AP testing - but it will all be reflected on ONE transcript. That's exactly what my old highschool did for me 15 years ago! It have technical training school on it, their classes, and somethgn else I forget on it. There were 4 or 5 different institutions represented on my transcript.
As for gaps, they are going to happen.
I care less about sticking with something for 4 years, than if the course(s) offerred meet our needs and are college prepartory in standard. Now flipping around mid-year or changing goals and standards a lot - that I think would be very hard on the student.
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| Posted: April 26 2008 at 1:14pm | IP Logged
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This has been an exciting thread and I am very interested in Kolbe for my eldest son. (Yes, the guinea pig!! ) He has been unhappy with Seton this year, saying he isn't learning anything and that there is a lot of busy work etc. He seems to work well with the lesson plans I can download and he can just "check off" himeself. He doesn't like like just doing things that don't seem to have a point though. (Crossword puzzles in the vocab. book jumps to mind.) He is a very logical person and if he is going to take the time to do it, it has to have a point. He has a weird thing about "his time".)
Anyway, I have been going over the course offerings for Kolbe's high school program, and they look very interesting. Does anyone here use Kolbe for high school and if so, what has your experience been? I think my son would really enjoy reading the original texts for Greek and Roman history and just writing a few paragraphs about each piece etc. (I got the impression that that is what you have to do with Kolbe. A paper a week or something in history for example. What DO you do with them???? I know what the inner workings of Seton's requirements are, but what is required with Kolbe in say, high school history, for example?)
Anyway, very interesting. Let's keep the discussion going? I am particuarly interested in any comparisons between Seton's hs program and what type of learning style that tends to mesh well with, as compared to Kolbe's program and what learning style that tends to mesh well with. I think they would be opposed to one another, don't you??
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Mom of 11 blessings:
Bobby 19, David 17, Noah 14,
Mary 12, Gracie 10,
Isabelle and Sophia 8,
Gabrielle 6,
William Anthony 4, Joseph 3 and Luisa Marie - born in M
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Martha
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| Posted: April 26 2008 at 1:54pm | IP Logged
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Eight Wonders wrote:
Anyway, I have been going over the course offerings for Kolbe's high school program, and they look very interesting. Does anyone here use Kolbe for high school and if so, what has your experience been? I think my son would really enjoy reading the original texts for Greek and Roman history and just writing a few paragraphs about each piece etc. (I got the impression that that is what you have to do with Kolbe. A paper a week or something in history for example. What DO you do with them???? I know what the inner workings of Seton's requirements are, but what is required with Kolbe in say, high school history, for example?)
Anyway, very interesting. Let's keep the discussion going? I am particuarly interested in any comparisons between Seton's hs program and what type of learning style that tends to mesh well with, as compared to Kolbe's program and what learning style that tends to mesh well with. I think they would be opposed to one another, don't you?? |
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I don't think they are neccessarily opposed to each other. (But what do I know? This is my oldest here! lol) They are both heavy on writing and high level reading skills.
Seton tends to be heavier on giving the typical school version of a well-rounded curriculum based in american and british history. Mostly since the revolution. I was very disappointed in that. I do think that is important, but I don't think it should be studied to the exclusion of the rest of the known world and history. Esp as the world is getting smaller and we can no longer presume our children will be working for american companies in america with fellow americans.
Kolbe tends to push the envelope on the books they suggest. Some recommendations are a bit advanced in content. (I think Seton is a bit advanced as far as comprehension ability too, but rarely content in my experience.) I hear tell the Kolbe plans give the parents a heads up there. I think that's a double edged sword. Starting in middle school, I see a need to expand their understand of humanity a bit.
Both Seton and Kolbe have the student write based on a given topic farily frequently.
Seton tends towards a moral analysis of the reading. Blank character imbodies the virtues of blank, blank, and black in the author's book. Give examples from the story that show this and how it still relates to people today as an example to follow in their own lives.
Kolbe tends to give more of a literary analysis. Show how the use of both the author's voice and the main character's voice create a mood in the story.
I'm sure they both have examples of both those types, but they tend to lean in those patterns.
Seton tends to be a right answer/wrong answer format.
Kolbe tends to be a more in depth study. There's some right/wrong answer, but there's a lot more expected to be taken from the lesson that just that.
I'll be honest and say Seton would probably be easier for me to hand to the boy and walk away confident he won't be left ignorant at the end of the day's work load. But that's not really my goal.
With Kolbe, I think he's going to be able to follow the plans himself there too, but it's going to be a challenging course and he's going to learn a lot more new things and learn them more in depth.
The same thing I've always loved about Seton might be why I'm looking at Kolbe now.
I'm always loved how Catholic Seton Press materials are. How thorough and teacher friendly and simply layed out. Very gently and consistantly imbodies the faith in every page to these young people who I feel really need their foundation to be as solidly catholic as possible.
However, I feel there does come a point where once the foundation is set, I must encourage them to build and give them the materials to do so. I see more growth in Kolbe's courses at this time. I might still use some Seton Press stuff for highschool, but I'm just not impressed with their lack of college prepatory science and math. I feel the literature and history could be expanded to include the rest of the world culture a bit more.
Kolbe has a message board that gets answers pretty quickly. You can see where I posted there. You have to be approved to join it, but you don't have to be a registered user to join it.
I'm excited about using their science 8 next year and I hope I'm just as happy with it when we're done.
And I really can't say enough - this is my oldest. I'm no expert on any of this. I'm just researching my bum off and going with what I feel is the best thing to get us where we want to be. And things are constantly changing. Just 2 years ago, Kolbe would never have been an option of consideration for me. Maybe in another 2 years Seton will better meet our needs than Kolbe for science.
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Ok, with danger of talking too much. I have used both Seton and Kolbe and could ditto what Martha said so I won't repeat her points. Here are a few other things caveated with the fact that my oldest who used Seton used it a while ago and some of the things may have changed.
In addition to the memorize and regurgitate, more traditional brick school approach, Seton seemed more about this is what you should teach, how you should teach and is the only right way to do it. There is a certain 1950s nostalgia apparent in the way things are said or communicated. It was good enough for Catholics when things were good in the church so it should be still good today and any other method of education is suspect because - well it is potentially infiltrated with modern errors. I do appreciate them being there early - I think they were one of only a few providers back when we first started homeschooling. I do think it is wise to be cautious and sometimes people will overemphasize to make a point. I did feel that Seton did not have a sense of partnership with the parent but expected the parent to totally delegate to them, the experts, except in minor or preapproved ways. This did not come across in the younger grades as much as it did in high school. They were way more flexible in elementary school. They could come across as very Doctrinaire and almost fearful of anything that tried to take into account the individual circumstances you were dealing with. They seemed frightened of true discussion as if this was always the same as the error of "it all depends on circumstances." Sometimes I felt like they were reacting to real errors out there but in ways that weren't quite the full picture either. It really rankled us and finally, I think, one of the Seton counselors, wise man that he was, finally pointed out to me that perhaps our tension was due to a difference deeper than particular courses, etc.
Seton was very much focused on providing a record that met accreditation standards. There are, evidently, those who must have this or who want this, so they do provide a service here. It is not a bad thing to have some sort of accountability, but we felt this was taken to a more extreme than we were comfortable with. I realize you have to give grades in high school and they must be meaningful and reflect the child's own work. Seton came across as worried that parents would offer too much help to their children. They seemed more focused on making sure your children appreciated the Catholic faith in all things and pounded the glories of Catholicism in every single subject and that no one cheated than with the actual help a parent might need in teaching their child. (They were great in giving parental support in grammar and math, not so good in history and literature). They seemed uncomfortable when children did not almost quote directly from their text. My dd learned quickly to memorize the texts and not bother to use her own words. She made straight A's with them. We were frustrated when we wanted to learn from our mistakes and they had to protect the integrity of the test so they could not give us the answer they had expected. I spent forever trying to find what we left out on history tests to try and help her learn from mistakes. There were times when, honestly, I think she gave a complete answer and we never could find out what it was we "left out". If she got a low A on a paper, she wanted specific recommendations on how to make it better. They mostly felt restrained from providing this information. We often got answers to specific literature questions that were "don't worry that isn't on the test." Now, I really didn't care that it wasn't on the test, we wanted to learn this. I ended up pulling my nephew's brain and finding a footnoted edition of a particular work just so we had some of this information. This is what I thought I was paying Seton to do.
Kolbe has a very clear statement of the parents as the primary educator. They will get frustrated with you if you try to hand everything over to them. They are there to support you, but do expect you to assess your own children. They will help you grade a few times, but then I think they really do shy away from providing grading services as they honestly feel you are the better one to do the grading as you are aware of the actual degree of effort your child put into something. They will give you support in doing this, but resist doing it for you. They will help guide you to choices that provide a solid, college prep high school course of study. They will alert you if they see a text as deficient (ie they are not terribly impressed with teaching textbooks or Apologia). However, once they have given their opinion, it is your call and they will not prevent you from using it. They are trying to be honest with both colleges and the parent and I believe they plan to note on the transcript if you deviate significantly - while still allowing a great deal of flexibility. They provide colleges with a list of the Kolbe course of study.
They will not interfere with your grading or teaching. If you want significant input, you must request it. Otherwise they view it as interfering with the parents. They might say something if everything you hand in is sloppy, etc. but otherwise, they keep your records and record your grades. We did want more guidance and I have gotten quite a bit of help from them, but I do have to ask very specifically for what I want. We signed up for the enhanced evaluation and I gave them a description of my dd and what I wanted from them. They respond to me but I generally just turn it to me dd. They were not restrained by fears of us cheating or how we used their tests, they were freer to provide real help. For my dd, the evaluator often gave samples of how she might have reworded something. My dd learned so much from this.
Both providers take grades seriously and do discourage redoes (I think Seton does this now),etc. but again with Kolbe it is all up to the parents. Kolbe evaluators and mentors will emphasize doing a few things well rather than a lot of things in a mediocre manner. They will help you determine which things to drop to go at a suitable pace. They strive at encouraging excellence in all that you do. The grades are your call as parent, with Kolbe, so they are free to discuss with you what their expectations are on assignments and why and ideas on ways to help a struggling child. If you tried to do every single thing in their high school year, you would be writing 1 - 2 papers per week in every single subject (they even have papers assigned in science). We tend to pick something each quarter in each subject to write and polish and others that we simply outline. I do substitute some of the literature and history assignments using Seton reading lists, Hillside, RC History. Most of the primary sources are thick tomes and for some there may be a purpose in reading every one in its entirety. We tend to be slow and methodical at our house so we do some but not all in the entirety and then the others I have them read the excerpts that RC History recommends. As far as getting credit on a transcript, they expect you to hand in samples per subject per quarter - but those samples can be anything you've done. With our oldest, we had her writing 2 book analysis per quarter instead of some of the other Kolbe stuff and that would have been our sample even though it wasn't specifically on Kolbe's list.
I know in highschool there is a tension in the providers between the parents and the fact that their name is going out on the transcript. They must be concerned with an honest representation of work done by each student using their name. With Seton, they lean more to the if we are recognizing your work, and you are using us, this must be done therefore you must hand in this precise paper, this precise test. Kolbe simply reports honestly about what you have chosen to do and leaves the choices with you. Kolbe keeps adding options - the summa, magna, standard diploma options, honors courses, etc. Electives you choose will go on the transcript but if they are not Kolbe courses, I think they only get 1/2 credit unless they are at a University or some such.
Kolbe is more about developing the thinking skills and while they will make sure truth is not obscured in the process, they are a lot more aware of allowing the student to explore various ideas. The parent assigns the grade, so they are free to provide you with whatever support you need. I am not a great literature person and need more support here so this fits me better. I know one area it came out very clearly was in theology because Seton and Kolbe used the exact same resources/texts. With Seton, my dd did her entire theolgy year in 2 weeks. She told me later; mom, Seton just wants all the lists memorized. So she memorized all the lists and took the tests. I was understandably appalled, especially when her lowest grade in theology was a 99%. With Kolbe, every question was thought provoking. You were expected to apply the information. If you didn't know it and didn't understand it, you could not apply it. They also included church documents which really did help my dd sort out all the conflicting opinions. It was very hard for dd in our parish as there were many liberties in interpretation of things and mixing between what was doctrine and what was prudential judgement. Mom and Dad, providers, etc. could come across as one more conflicting opinion in this sea of confusion. Kolbe's specific use of current church documents was a blessing.
Seton came across as more fearful and sometimes seemed to act as if areas of prudential judgement or areas that the church has not yet given a complete verdict were a matter of doctrine. For instance, you will notice that Seton is very much in the no evolution camp and would discourage secular science texts and will often view what Kolbe does as not quite Catholic or safe. Kolbe uses secular texts but tries to find those that do not directly contradict church teaching. They do clearly express church teaching and insist that students know that the church does allow belief in evolution provided that certain conditions are met - they read the original church documents here. They do try to balance out the heavy evolution in the Biology text with some other materials from another point of view as this is not an area the church has clearly spoken and we are supposed to look with eyes of faith and intelligence. If you are strongly in the anti-evolution camp, then you probably won't like Kolbe science. Of course, if you like Kolbe otherwise, you could still do Apologia though they would discourage it. With Seton it would be the other way around. I could still do PH as an independent study, but they would discourage it. Some of the economic stuff and science stuff in Seton had errors in it in terms of Protestant views but these, I don't believe are addressed as fully as Kolbe addresses the problems with the secular texts. Perhaps they assume you remember the true information about Galileo from the mounds of stuff you memorized in history but their subjects tend to be more isolated and divoreced from each other - like in a traditional school.
That brings me to another difference. You really see the expectation of retention of learning, when you look at the paper topic assignments in the 4 years at Kolbe. When you read something in 11th you will be asked to compare and contrast it to something you read in 9th and 10th. You also will compare world views between the pagan authors and they early Christian authors that utilized some of this material. They also integrate all the subjects in a remarkable way. When you are studying early Rome, you are also studying the Early Church in Theology and the Sacraments and reading the church fathers and doctors. They expect you to integrate this with the literature and history you are learnign - comparing worldviews, seeing where some of the pagan authors were gettting things right but also where they were getting things wrong. I know some folks will look at the Kolbe booklist and run in fear because you are reading tons of pagan authors and they don't see it as a very Catholic program. However, Kolbe builds a real discernment in reading with the way they do things. You really don't get a good feel for Kolbe until you see their actual lesson plans with the paper topics in them. By contrast, we found that even in high school, Seton was still simply having the kids repeat what was in the book in everything but their papers. In the papers, they wanted an analysis - but it was still more about expounding on Catholic truth, trying to make sure it is solidly in your head. Kolbe tends to expect a certain level of knowledge of the faith by high school and now you are discerning other things in light of the given faith. Of course, you continue to learn and reinforce the faith but there is a certain respect for the budding mind, that we felt was seriously lacking in Seton. It was almost as if Seton was set up for folks who were withdrawing kids from big, bad school systems and all those errors they absorbed out there have to be extricated. It kind of comes across as very defensive by high school. I think we would be way more comfortable with Seton in grade school than in high school because we are more inclined to protect our tender children's minds from having to deal with the ancient world, or modern pagan world and unbelief or belief in other gods before their own belief is more in place. Seton just tends to extend this out a lot longer. Kolbe tends to assume a development of the mind and solid formation sooner. Kolbe, in my opinion, is more flexible and more respectful of the parents making good decisions for their own children. I really like they they tell me - use you discretion here. We did skip some Greek plays as I didn't really think I wanted our dd to read those yet. I wouldn't have been able to skip anything with Seton. At one point Seton didn't like the Bethleham books because of content, obviously some of this fear based reaction has changed some since we used them as I see some of these Bethlehem books on their reading lists now.
We also detected a general sense of fear with the counselors in Seton. We were always getting advice to keep our children at home, not let them mingle too much out there. They were contiually preaching on the dangers of too much time outside the family. I don't think that what they said was necessarily wrong. It is just that they never stopped the mantra to really understand our situation with our child and there does come a time when you must let your fledglings fledge and for some high school may be too early. For us, if we had waited any longer, we would have crushed our little fledgings wings. She was isolated and needed to be out there mingling with others. She needed wider ideas to grapple with. She needed guidance in making things her own and permission to make mistakes and be gently led to the truth through a whole expansion of using those thinking,reasoning skills that we had worked so hard to awaken. Seton seemed more about keeping protecting them. They even kept telling us not to let her go anywhere but a Catholic college her first year of college - even though no Catholic college offered what she wanted.
Seton tends to downplay the arts in high school. It is all about cramming in academic information and don't let anything else take up too much time. Our oldest was a musician and spent untold hours in practice, performances and chamber. We didn't feel the same sense of celebration of her particular talents with Seton as we did with Kolbe. Kolbe continues to require fine arts credit and PE credit throughout high school. I really do believe it is a better balanced program. They will tell you not to neglect any areas while, of course, celebrating the child's particular area of expertise or giftedness.
One thing interesting is that my dd was so drawn to Kolbe's newsletter. I think they provided a bit of the opportunity for recognition that she so missed with homeschooling. Their newsletter publishes student drawings, papers, and will even acknowledge particular accomplishments. They provide an honor track if you want to strive for it. Everytime my dd read Seton's newsletter,it was one more article about how to get your child to do work and somewhere in there was to cut back from outside activity.
These are our personal experiences of the differences. And, yes, the oldest child is the great guinea pig in many ways. We do look back and wish we had done a few things differently - but we don't dwell on it because God is good despite our imperfections and we have a lovely, oldest dd to be very proud of.
Janet
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Martha
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| Posted: April 26 2008 at 6:47pm | IP Logged
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Thanks Janet!
I will mention *my* pov on Seton vs Kolbe advising and grading.
15 years ago I think Seton was much more rigid. I really wish they'd ditch Mary Kaye Clark's book or revise a new edition or something because it does come across as very fear driven. But at the time that she gave that advice, it wasn't paranoia. In many places hs-ing was illegal or so strongly discouraged as to might have well been.
NOW I've never had a problem with Seton telling me first thing to modifiy the lessons all I want - the learning is what matters. Not once have I ever heard different from them in the last 7 years or when speaking to their highschool dept over the last few months.
That said, I forgot to mention two major, imho, differences between Seton and Kolbe.
1. The majority of the staff at Seton are actual homeschooling or homeschooled people. It's awesome to know that the person I'm talking to has actually been in my shoes or my child's shoes and they personally understand that what happens in a classroom doesn't always transfer to the homeschool.
In reading the biographies of the staff at Kolbe, I was NOT impressed. I think only a couple have ever homeschooled children at all. None have been homeschooled. Several don't even have children of their own yet. Frankly, I have more teaching experience than a few of their advisors and more homeschooling expereince than several if not most of them.
2. Seton uses a grading system vs Kolbe uses more of a portfolio system.
Seton has VERY high standards for what they consider a paper worth an A. I consider that a plus. Seton is very helpful in explaining what makes that A paper worth the A and how to explain it to the student. Rather than presume credit earned by having stated it's complete, Seton says we presume you've earned the credit if the average assessment of the work sent in gives a high enough grade.
Kolbe uses more a portfolio method. You send in so many papers and maybe a test or two, obviously you would only send in the best - and they presume the credit for the course is earned based on the work before them.
I don't think either of these grading systems are bad. I think it depends on the teacher needs. I know I have pretty high expectations, so I'm really not worried about either assessment method. BUT earlier in my son's writing travails - I wanted an in depth look at his writing and to have it assessed closely and to have lots of help in making it better quality writing. Seton gave that to me. Seton was tougher, but by goodness I knew if it met their standards then it was one mighty fine bit of work.
Kolbe will look it over and give a head nod, but not much input on the nitty gritty aspects. It depends on what the family needs whether that's going to suit them or not.
I think ANY high school provider that offers a diploma or transcript option is going to be in conflict to some degree with the parent - because you are 100% right Janet - it's their name on the form.
I'll be happy to fix the dilema by making our own transcripts if neccessary.
Personally, I prefer a portfolio style and for all intents and purposes, that's how I used Seton. I never sent in more than the written assignments every quarter.
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Willa
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| Posted: April 26 2008 at 9:23pm | IP Logged
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Eight Wonders wrote:
| I think it is fun, even expected, for moms to switch styles, curriculums, do it yourself etc. when the children are younger, but as they get older (my eldest will be entering 8th grade in the fall) do you really need to buckle down and get "serious" and stick with one provider? I just wondered about that got a little nervous. Should you stop "changing" at a certain point in your child's education? Thoughts? |
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I can see what you mean. You might lose some momentum and even have to repeat some things whenever you switch, and momentum is more important in high school than it is in the earlier years.
But to me it seems that my husband and I are the ones in charge of the child's education and so if I stick to one program it should be because I continue to think it's best. And it is my own child that I am trying to educate, so I have to find what works for that individual child. So for that reason I think that switching and tweaking are OK if you see reason for it. I do know lots of people who have become overwhelmed with the choices and prefer to stay with one program and just deal with its inevitable limitations, and that seems fine too -- it's what we would be doing if our kids were going to a Catholic or other school, after all.
I am just graduating my third child this year.
My first used a mixture of Kolbe and MODG. Kolbe's lesson plans were much sparser back then and my son needed something concrete he could just do on his own, so I bought MODG syllabi to fill out Kolbe lit and history. He used Apologia for science, Jacob's &Foerster's for math, and Henle for Latin, without a syllabus. And for religion we followed Kolbe.
My second child used mostly Kolbe. It suited him well. He did not write all the papers and he didn't read every book on the syllabus -- the ones I thought had overly mature content I replaced with some of the classic retellings like Church's and White's. We did our own English and Latin and German.
My third child has basically gone off on a new tack altogether. She is my daughter in more ways than one, I suppose. She reads a lot and is very musical and interested in cinema. She doesn't really follow a regular syllabus for history or literature, and she doesn't do a formal language arts program, but she writes constantly and well.
They've each gotten a good education by my evaluation. My second-born has some learning differences so we hit a few walls in foreign languages and math but he has done wonderfully in his areas of strength.
So I wouldn't say it is necessary to stick to one program. I certainly wouldn't blame someone who chose to do it that way, because every family's situation is so unique. There have been times I have felt a bit stressed by going with the "tailor to the child" decision because I'm not naturally good at this at all. Fortunately the children themselves as they reach their teenage years take a hand in their own development and they seem to all have shown good judgment in pursuing what they need to know. I am not saying that a teenager is necessarily capable of learning without any guidance but I see myself stepping back a bit and becoming more of a mentor/coach/resource as they get older.
Whew, what a mouthful. I am really enjoying this nitty-gritty discussion. So interesting, especially in planning season!
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MarilynW
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This thread is an answer to prayer - even if I am second guessing and worrying even more now. I want to find something from 7th and stick with it. I have considered Seton because they are so comprehensive and very efficient. I have not looked at Kolbe recently as I thought they were a bit dry a few years ago. The transcript thing really worries me - as I did not go to college in the US and still have difficulty figuring out what credits etc are. I need to find a good Transcripts book and read it. (if the wonderful lurker lady I met IRL on Saturday night is reading this - please email me or pm me the name of the book you recommended )
Has anyone graduated kids who have done only MODG? Is it sufficient academically?
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Another question - has ANYONE used Seton for Junior High and High - enjoyed it and had kids graduate from Seton and go onto college?
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Martha
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I haven't, but I have met Seton graduates that I was very impressed with. One works for the Our Lady of Fatima Network and presents himself very well. When bringing the pilgramage statue to us, he said that Seton was very hard for him, but that a student who can do it - can handle college easy.
Seton's been around so long that the odds are one will met one of their grads easier, so I don't know if that's a reflection of them being better or just around longer. Or maybe just better for those kids, kiwm?
I don't know that I'm going to use any one provider all through highschool right now. A lot depends on how 9th grade progresses should we use Kolbe.
I really would not freak out over transcripts? Starting to feel like I'm not stressed enough about those? I've seen them and they don't look that complicated to me? Pretty basic stuff? But then again I love spreadsheets, so maybe that's why the look of them doesn't bother me?
Homeschool Tracker software will make one for you.
Donna Young's website also has transcript generators and spreadsheets.
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: seton, kolbe, modg for highschool
