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Jenn Sal
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The director of music at my church, who is also my kids piano teacher, wants me to ask the Pope when Christmas ends.  I made the "mistake" of handing him a Christmas card today saying that at least it was still Christmas. Is there a clear answer on whether it ends on the Epiphany to Candlemas?
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JodieLyn
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My Catholic Calender says this week is still Christmas. This coming Sunday is the first Sunday in ordinary time followed by the first week in ordinary time. This Sunday is also the Baptism of the Lord. But it's in ordinary time not Christmas time.
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CrunchyMom
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Jenn Sal wrote:
| The director of music at my church, who is also my kids piano teacher, wants me to ask the Pope when Christmas ends. I made the "mistake" of handing him a Christmas card today saying that at least it was still Christmas. Is there a clear answer on whether it ends on the Epiphany to Candlemas? |
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Well, "the pope" leaves his nativity out until Candlemas, though as Jodie says, Baptism of our Lord is when Ordinary time officially starts. Candlemas is forty days after Christmas, so I think that is why we still remember it until than, traditionally.
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JennGM
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I think the Baptism of our Lord is the last day of Christmas. The next day is the first day of Ordinary Time. The churches should have Christmas decorations up on Sunday.
In both calendars this has been the case. The main difference between the traditional is that it is broken in two cycles, The Christmas Cycle, which usually ends on Candlemas. (Not sure how this works with an early Lent like this year.) The Easter Cycle includes all the pre-lent weeks and time after Pentecost.
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JodieLyn
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The Baptism of the Lord has to be in Ordinary Time because the next Sunday, the 20th, is the Second Sunday in Ordinary Time.
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JodieLyn
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OK apparently all logic actually flies out the window here and The Baptism of the Lord is considered part of Christmas.. BUT it also takes the place of the First Sunday of Ordinary time.
So apparently we never actually in fact have a First Sunday in Ordinary time.. we start Ordinary time on Monday and just count the next Sunday as the Second Sunday. 
Or maybe it would be easier to think of it as "all of the above" 
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JennGM
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Yep, there never is a 1st Sunday in Ordinary Time
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Jenn Sal
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JennGM wrote:
| Yep, there never is a 1st Sunday in Ordinary Time |
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I never knew that! When you mentioned the two calendars and the Christmas Cycle, is it that traditionally the Christmas season used to end on Candlemas or that a new time began from the Baptism to Candlemas?
Is it now a new tradition to end the Christmas Season on the day of the Baptism? Is this all a matter of old and new? I'm sorry I am so confused on this.
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pumpkinmom
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My older relatives have always considered the Baptism of the Lord as the last day of Christmas, so I don't think this is new.
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MaryM
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This is so timely and a great question. I have learned so much through the years as this and similar topics about the litugical year and calendar have come up. A few years ago there was this thread - The Christmas Season which is in turn linked to several additional threads:
The Baptism of Our Lord
Why is Lent so Early?
FSSP Calendar?-Traditional Feast Days
In all these threads Jenn and others have really elaborated on the history the symbolism and all which make it so fascinating and interwoven. I just reread the threads while looking for them and  and wanted to add them to the discussion here as well. Because I learn something every time.
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JennGM
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Mary, thanks for finding these. I knew there were other threads that I had more info, but I didn't have time to search.
Michele Quigley has both Liturgical Calendars to compare but there are feasts inserted so you can't see the green for all the "Time After Epiphany".
 This one I had from an old missal, so you can see the Green for the "Time after Epiphany" and "Time after Pentecost" which is the equivalent to our "Ordinary Time".
I found this quote from The Directory on Popular Piety and the Liturgy on Women for Faith and Family.
Quote:
The Feast of the Baptism of the Lord
119. Closely connected with the salvific events of the Epiphany are the mysteries of the Baptism of the Lord and the manifestation of His glory at the marriage feast of Cana.
Christmastide closes with the Baptism of the Lord. Only in recent times has the feast been rehabilitated, and hence has not given rise to any particular displays of popular piety. However, the feast presents an excellent opportunity for the faithful to be reminded of their rebirth as children of God in Baptism. The rite of asperges could be opportunely used at all Masses on this day, and homilies could well concentrate on the symbols associated with Baptism. |
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JennGM
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Just to add a few thoughts, because this is an area I find fascinating. If you search on Wikipedia for the General Roman Calendar or Liturgical, you will find several articles that show the contrasts from the reformed calendars. There was the original Tridentine Calendar by Pius V, then it was reformed in 1954, then 1955 by Pius XII, then 1960 and 1962 by John XXIII. What the Church has for the Extraordinary Form is the 1962 calendar.
Originally there was an Octave for Epiphany, and the 13th would be the last day of the Octave. This Octave was removed in 1955 by Pius XII.
In the EF calendar, the Sunday after Epiphany is the feast of the Holy Family, which is different than the current OF calendar, as it is the Sunday in the Octave of Christmas. So this year it means the Baptism of Our Lord and Holy Family are on the same day.
So, to sum up, the EF (traditional) calendar of 1962 AND the current (OF) calendar have Christmas season ending on the Baptism of Our Lord. The 1962 calendar has the Baptism fixed on January 13, and the current calendar varies according to the year, but it USUALLY is the Sunday following Epiphany.
I can't find any indication that Candlemas/Purification/Presentation completes the Christmas season in any calendar from any year. Only if there are least 3 weeks of Time After Epiphany will it be included. This year, because Ash Wednesday falls so early (February 13), Septuagesima (which is 3 weeks before) begins on January 27.
In short, there isn't much contrast between the calendars regarding this time of year.
Clear as mud?
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St. Ann
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I haven't made it to daily Mass this week, but have watched the EWTN broadcast of Holy Mass in the Cathedral of Cologne Germany the last 2 days. I mention this only because of the emphasis the Priest made of this being the time of Epiphany this whole week. I understood him that this Feast is more than the 6th of January and the texts reflect this... he made the connections. It is also important to note that the Holy Relics of the 3 Wise Men are in the Cathedral itself and maybe Cologn has its own traditions.
On another point. In our Parish here in Germany we do sing Christmas songs during Mass until Candlemas. Not the "Hark the Herald" type of songs, but of the quieter sort.
Yet, my 2 oldest are singing in a Christmas Concert Sunday evening to "end the Christmas season."
that was helpful  ?
 I think we have this conversation every year and we still have to work through this each time. I am glad about it. I find it fascinating and it keeps me involved and interested. Little things like this increase my love and wonder for our Holy Faith. Wierd , I know. 
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St. Ann wrote:
| I haven't made it to daily Mass this week, but have watched the EWTN broadcast of Holy Mass in the Cathedral of Cologne Germany the last 2 days. I mention this only because of the emphasis the Priest made of this being the time of Epiphany this whole week. I understood him that this Feast is more than the 6th of January and the texts reflect this... he made the connections. It is also important to note that the Holy Relics of the 3 Wise Men are in the Cathedral itself and maybe Cologn has its own traditions. |
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Usually the weekdays reflect the Sunday--the feast of Sunday illuminates all the week. It's the same here...the readings are so beautiful, emphasizing the Light to the Gentiles/the whole world.
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Servant2theKing
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Helpful information from fisheaters below ~ it appears that any continuation of Christmas until Candlemas or the Feast of the Purification is mainly spiritual, rather than liturgical ~ isn't our Faith fraught with such depth and meaning! Fitting then, Jenn, that the Christmas season culminates spiritually with Candlemas, celebrating the Light to the Gentiles and the Light to the whole world ~ layer upon layer of rich meaning in all that Holy Mother Church offers to us!
This, not Advent, is the true Christmas Season. As most people in secular or Protestantized countries are putting away "Christmas-y" things, and as shopping malls stop blaring "Here Comes Santa Claus," Catholics are just getting started. The cleaning and baking during penitential Advent pays off now, and the feasting and caroling begin!
The entire Christmas Cycle is a crescendo of Christ's manifesting Himself as God and King -- to the shepherds, to the Magi, at His Baptism, to Simeon and the prophetess, Anna (Luke 2). The days from the Feast of the Nativity to the Epiphany are known as "The Twelve Days of Christmas," with Christmas itself being the first day, and Twelfthnight -- 5 January -- being the last of the twelve days. Christmastide liturgically ends on 13 January, the Octave of the Epiphany and the Baptism of Christ (at which time the season of Time After Epiphany begins). But Christmas doesn't end spiritually -- i.e., the celebration of the events of Christ's life as a child don't end, and the great Christmas Cycle doesn't end -- until Candlemas on 2 February and the beginning of the Season of Septuagesima.
In this way, just as From Ash Wednesday on, we commemorate Christ in the desert for forty days, and just as after Easter we celebrate for forty days until the Ascension, after Christmas we celebrate the Child Jesus for forty days -- all through the season of Time After Epiphany -- until Candlemas. The schema of those Christ Child celebrations looks like this:
•Christmas
Christ is born
•Feast of the Holy Innocents
Herod slaughters the baby boys in order to kill the Christ Child
•The Circumcision (the Octave of Christmas)
Jesus follows the Law
•Feast of the Holy Name of Jesus
After He is circumcised, He is named and becomes a part of the Holy Family
•Twelfth Night
The Twelve Days of Christmas as a Feast come to an end
•Feast of the Epiphany
Jesus reveals His divinity to the three Magi, and during His Baptism, and at the wedding at Cana
•Baptism of Our Lord/Octave of the Epiphany
Christmas liturgically ends with the Octave of the Epiphany.
•Feast of the Holy Family
Jesus condescends to be subject to His parents
•Feast of the Purification (Candlemas)
40 days after giving birth, Mary goes to the Temple to be purified and to "redeem" Jesus per the Old Testament Law of the firstborn.
Christmas truly ends as a Season with Candlemas and the beginning of Septuagesima.
ETA Even more here The site seems to have the most thorough information on the subject.
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JennGM
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I do enjoy all the information from Fisheaters, but I do have to add a caution about the site. The review at Catholic Culture gives a little information. It's not that there is misinformation presented, but more of a lack of information regarding anything after Vatican II and in the forums more of a promotion of the Traditional Catholic which isn't following the Pope.
I love that quote, Servant. I've been thinking of the section of True Christmas Spirit by Edward Sutfin on the feasts of Christmas. I enjoy this book, although some of the information is a gleaning from other sources, sometimes the exact verbiage without quoting, so that makes me "itchy". But chapters 9 and 10 are really meaty, and the appendix is rich!
I enjoyed this quote, hinting at the significance of Candlemas as a Christmas feast:
Quote:
This rather lengthy introduction to our celebration of the feast of the Purification may seem to be slightly out of place, since our principal concern here is to offer suggestions whereby children may be instructed by means of the liturgy of the Church. Candlemas, however, at the present time would seem to be one of those great festivals whose real import is not well understood. It appears to many as a second-rate Christmas feast, often overshadowed by the time of Septuagesima. Few see its significance as the finale of the Christmas drama and the logical transition to the cycle of Easter. It is very important to restore this third climactic feast, and without the theoretical
and theological knowledge necessary for thorough understanding it would be impossible for parents and teachers to attempt to convey its beauty to children. |
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The quote from Fisheaters is a bit misleading, because Septuagesima can occur before Candlemas (as it will this year).
Chapter 10 is so fabulous, because it points out the other feasts that directly part of the Christmas cycle:
Immaculate Conception (Dec. 8)
St. Joseph: (March 19)
Annunciation: (March 25)
Nativity of St. John the Baptist: (June 24):
The Visitation (July 2, now May 31)
St. Anne: (July 26)
St. Joachim: (August 16 now July 26)
Nativity of Blessed Virgin: (September 8)
Holy Name of Mary: (September 12)
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Jenn Sal
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Been away from this due to sick kids...they are on the mend. Wow! What great and helpful information from everyone. Thank you!
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Servant2theKing
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I share your concern and caution Jenn. I simply did a quick search and thought the info from fisheaters did a good job of addressing the liturgical and spiritual elements of the Christmas season/celebration. The quote and feasts you shared beautifully illustrate the incredible and intricate tapestry contained in our faith! In essence, we are blessed to celebrate Christ's birth throughout the entire Church year! Christ, our Light, illumine the darkness of our world and bring us to Your Heavenly Light!
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Angie Mc
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Jenn Sal wrote:
| The director of music at my church, who is also my kids piano teacher, wants me to ask the Pope when Christmas ends. I made the "mistake" of handing him a Christmas card today saying that at least it was still Christmas. |
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Jenn, the proper thing to say when one is handed a Christmas card is "thank you."
On a practical note, I just mailed more Christmas cards today & we'll take our Christmas tree down this weekend  .
Hope the kids are all on the mend. We're getting there!
Love,
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JennGM
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Angie Mc wrote:
Jenn Sal wrote:
| The director of music at my church, who is also my kids piano teacher, wants me to ask the Pope when Christmas ends. I made the "mistake" of handing him a Christmas card today saying that at least it was still Christmas. |
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Jenn, the proper thing to say when one is handed a Christmas card is "thank you."
On a practical note, I just mailed more Christmas cards today & we'll take our Christmas tree down this weekend . |
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Good point, Angie! I sent my cards out after Christmas, even before the New Year, and I had a (Catholic) aunt make some snide remark in a note back that I barely made it before she put all the Christmas away. She put me on the defensive...and mine is the wrong response to a rude response.
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: When does Christmas end help
