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tovlo4801
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I really appreciate everyone sharing what unschooling means for them. It helps me to understand what this sort of schooling means and helps me figure out if and exactly how we should incorporate it into our school.
A question came to my mind about unschooling and commitment this morning. I was still thinking about it this morning on my way to mass. (I had to write my question down on a piece of paper before going into mass so my mind wouldn't still be spinning it around while it should be focused on God.  )
I have seen that unschooling is a sensitive subject for everyone and I want to strongly emphasize that I am not questioning unschooling as a valid method at all! On the contrary, I am intensely attracted to the idea and really want to sort through all the potential problems I might have implementing some form of it. So I am asking this question with a deep respect for those of you who are implementing this form of education and honestly seeking your experienced input.
I'm wondering, when children are given the freedom to explore their interest until that interest is spent, how does that affect their ability to commit to something long-term even when their interest in it wanes? Do you worry that an unschooling style encourages commitment as long as the interest is there and then gives permission to drop it when it is no longer interesting?
The problem this raises for me can be shown in marriage. My husband and I are part of a marriage ministry for troubled marriages. Every time we present a weekend the room is full of couples who are somewhere close to quitting the marriage because it is no longer something they are interested in continuing. One of the main points this ministry tries to impress on the couples is that marriage is a commitment through the ups and the downs. We try to impress on couples that there is value to persevering even when you don't feel like being there anymore. It is far too frequent that people don't understand what commitment means. I need to confess that the reason my dh and I are involved in this ministry is that I was once in that room ready to ditch our own marriage. I don't want it to appear that I'm unfairly judging.
What I worry about is giving children the subtle impression that ditching something when the interest is spent is OK. I can think of other examples where that commitment even when the interest is gone has incredible value. Mother Theresa is said to have been spiritually dry for most of her ministry. She did not feel like praying, but she persevered because she was commited to God.
What do you do in your homeschool to help your children learn to commit to something and persevere even when their interest is gone?
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mumofsix
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Richelle, this is something I have been concerned about! However, I wonder whether a lot depends on age appropriateness. We should have evolved as adults, certainly by the time we are thinking of marriage, into people who can make a lifelong commitment. However, imagine that we expected that sort of ability to commit for our teenagers, or for ourselves as teenagers. Eek! It would mean that I would have been committed for life to that boy with the teeth I went out with at age 16 just so that I could be like "everyone else" and have a boyfriend.
Similarly in the intellectual life: there are people who go through life never really discovering what it is they really want to do or who they really are, and that is rather sad. On the other hand, it is NATURAL for children to be this way. They are on a process of discovery and need to delve into lots of different interests and try lots of things out. Some interests might be very short-lived, others will blossom and become the foundation of a life-long interest. If we were to demand commitment, it would tend to wither interest on the vine. "Okay, you want to study the Romans. I hope this is not going to be another one of those two minute wonders." This would kill enthusiasm pretty quickly, if the child thought he were tacitly committing himself to a lifetime commitment. He might then tend to play safe and stick to basketball and fruit loops.
I think commitment is something that should develop with time, however. It might be perfectly okay for an eight year old to drop a study after a few weeks or even a few days in some circumstances. However, most of us would hope our highschoolers had the ability to sustain things for a little longer. My ds 17 is talking about changing A level subjects (British high school exams) and coming home to finish high school. That is fine with me but it involves a financial investment. As I am a little concerned about his commitment level, I am saying that I will invest the money in the correspondence courses he wishes to take, but I will expect him to finish them (a one year commitment), otherwise reimburse me. (I will foot the bill myself if he finishes them.) I don't think that is unreasonable, and in fact it is helping him to think through really carefully what exactly he wants to do at this point in his life, and in the near future.
Jane.
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Karen E.
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mumofsix wrote:
They are on a process of discovery and need to delve into lots of different interests and try lots of things out. Some interests might be very short-lived, others will blossom and become the foundation of a life-long interest. If we were to demand commitment, it would tend to wither interest on the vine. |
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This is such an important point! We -- I -- have to remember that they are children, not mini-adults. They're learning about commitment, but are not yet mature enough to exercise it in all vital realms.
And, the concept of "vital realms" is important, too. The spiritual education of our children revolves around teaching them what is important -- what is worth commitment? It's a question of priority and proportion. God, spouse, children, homeschooling ... they all demand my total commitment in a way that a Tuesday morning exercise class does not. (Obviously, I'm not exercising and I've nicely rationalized why that is the case.)  To take that example a little further, I could say that although I know that taking care of my body is important, there are other ways to exercise than leaving the house on Tuesday morning, so if Tues. a.m. isn't working for me, I can drop it and tweak the schedule to accomplish the same goal. I'm rambling ... better move on.
Seriously, though, your question, Richelle, is a valuable one. We don't want to teach our children to just drop whatever isn't bringing them pleasure. I think the unschoolers here would agree that the way we do that is to teach the skill of discernment. Before the children (or I) simply drop something, we evaluate its overall worth: in light of God's will, in light of their education as a whole, in light of their particular talents and gifts.
For example, it would be a mistake for me to push math, math, and higher math with Emily when her brain is wired for literature. She's a reader and a dreamer. But, to be well-educated and to function in the world, she will need a certain amount of math. That's my aim -- for her to be comfortable with it, to use it in the real world, to be unintimidated by it and to be free to say that it simply isn't her strongest interest.
On the other hand, it would be a mistake for me to assume that the same is true for Lizzy. She does seem to be wired for math. She was not, however, particularly eager to learn to read. But I didn't give up on reading. I simply approached it very differently than I had with Emily. I knew that reading was not negotiable; I just had to find ways to teach Lizzy to read that didn't kill her enthusiasm. Dropping it because she wasn't interested wasn't an option. Tweaking the methods was.
I think this whole discussion ties into Bridget's "work ethic" question. Some things aren't subject to the "interest level" approach and as Catholic parents we make that clear. That is, we will all do household chores no matter how distasteful some of them are; I will cook meals whether I'm in the mood or not; we will go to Mass even if we've been out of town, are exhausted and would rather sleep in. We do not, however, have to finish a book that's boring us all to tears, and we don't have to spend another four weeks studying rocks when we've learned enough about rocks to make it through life. (No offense to rock-lovers.)
Proportion ... discernment ... importance in light of eternal life. Those are my guidelines.
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Karen E.
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Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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tovlo4801
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mumofsix wrote:
| We should have evolved as adults, certainly by the time we are thinking of marriage, into people who can make a lifelong commitment. |
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It would be ideal if people truly did just evolve by adulthood into people capable of making a lifelong commitment, but my experience tells me that for many, many people now that is not the case. So what is missing? I certainly was not unschooled, so that was not my problem.
Perhaps the question of whether a child grows into an adult who understands commitment doesn't have much to do with how the child was educated after all. Perhaps it has a lot more to do with what is modeled by the people surrounding the child. I'm thinking that children who see people around them who are commited to their faith, to their marriage, to their children, etc., are going to be much better prepared to make their own commitments than children who have not had this influence.
So back to the question of pursuing interests until they are spent and whether this hinders a child from understanding commitment. After considering this, I think that commitment comes from what a child sees modeled in their life. Modeling of commitment can come through the commitment of the parents to lifelong learning, to their faith, to their spouse, and to their children.
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tovlo4801
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Karen E. wrote:
And, the concept of "vital realms" is important, too. The spiritual education of our children revolves around teaching them what is important -- what is worth commitment? It's a question of priority and proportion.
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This makes A LOT of sense to me. Can I rephrase and see if I've got it? As the parent, I need to determine what the essentials are (perhaps with significant input from my child). The lesser decisions on the level of commitment that a certain topic warrants is determined by the child's interest level and discernment of the material's ultimate importance to the child's future ability to function well in life. For example, I can determine that it is essential that my child understand the history of the world he lives in. I can then determine that it is not important that he commit to learning everything possible about World War II. I can allow him to drop that subject when his interest is spent. OTOH if his interest in writing drops, I can determine that this is important to his ability to function in the future and we must commit to gaining this skill. We can work together to find ways that are more pleasant to aquire this skill, but we prioritize this and say that this is something we need to commit to. Do I get it?
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juliecinci
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I think of a few things when I read this post.
1. A healthy family life that models commitment to each of its members does more to teach about life long commitment in relationships than working on a course of study because someone required me to do it.
2.My parents (who were Catholics from the cradle, went to Catholic schools, who were raised by deeply committed Catholic parents) ended in divorce after 19 years of marriage due to adultery. My father is the ultimate committed student (law and engineer degrees, able to study any field with depth and commitment). Somehow his passion for education and committing to a course of study didn't translate into a faithful, long-term marriage.
3. If a person has been taught from an early age that she can't trust her own likes and dislikes, her passions, or her choices because she will "have to do what she doesn't like eventually" and "others know best for her, she can't know for herself," then when she's presented with a commitment to marriage, it may be that she will commit out of a sense of duty to the man she has spent X amount of time with without really counting the cost. Many marriages struggle due to a revelation of self that occurs in midlife that challenges the self-perceptions of youth as well as the conventions that the younger person accepted blindly, without true conviction. Commitment to a relationship comes from a deep knowledge of self first, and then, from a willingness to be true to the other person from that secure foundation.
4. Some of the challenges to person-led (I resist delight-directed, child-led) learning come from the years of conditioning we had in school that were used to pacify our disinterest and resistance to a controlled education. If we step back, we can see that when allowed to pursue what we love, we often get really serious about it and continue long after we thought we would naturally.
For instance, I used to say that we were taking homeschool one year at a time and then panicked that I would burn out in three months. I've been at it thirteen years now because I found it to be worthy of my commitment. I have pursued my love of theology without abatement for twenty-five years. I studied and played guitar for five years as an adult. I've continued to find avenues for my writing every stage of my life, my longest enduring passion.
For all of that, the courses I was made to study (biology comes to mind) didn't become meaningful or real until I wanted to have sex (marriage) and then become pregnant. That's when I embarked on a study of biology that counted.
5. I like the idea of commitment being something we demonstrate through our actions toward our kids. We are committed to their well-being, to communicating love and support, to serving them with kindness, to believing the best and yet offering insight and critique when necessary. In short, I trust that my commitment to my kids teaches them about committing to a person (not a project). I fight for them and stick by them through ups and downs.
I do the same in my marriage.
I've done the same in my faith.
And I have lived the same in my education, actually, as well.
Julie
P.S. We have plenty of challenges that I am constantly working on and praying through. I don't want to give the impression that we have somehow solved the dilemmas that have caused me to worry and fret. I'm a pretty adept worry-wort. But when we talk about principles, these are the kinds of ideas that guide me and steady me in times of anxiety.
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juliecinci
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One other thought about sustained interest.
Dr. Mel Levine (author of One Mind at a Time and The Myth of Laziness - great books!) disntinguishes between "affinities" and "interests." For me, sometimes the cateogries are blurred, but let me just express what I got from him this way.
Interests can be considered those areas that we use for personal entertainment, physical fitness, relaxation, hobbies that are used as diversions, not as pursuits fo excellence.
Affinities are those areas we find ourselves drawn to in a more substantial way. We find that we commit to a course of study (we don't just watch birds occasionally but become interested in their identification, in recording our bird sightings, in understanding how to attract them to the feeder and so on).
One person's interest in "cooking" might be another person's affinity which means that she is really interested in becoming an expert chef!
All of us have both interests and affinities. Dr. Levine suggests supporting a child in developing affinities by giving them reasonable goals within an area of interest that is more than entertainment or fitness or diversion. So if a child shows an affinity for the stars, cultivate that interest by visiting an observatory, suggest that you keep track of the star formations over the course of many months, subscribe to email newsletters about space and so on. We can nurture an affinity by helping our kids create reasonable, on-going connections and even suggesting goals (if the child likes that idea).
One child might really have an affinity for Jackie Chan movies. Suggest watching them in chronological order. Check out JC's biography and read it. Visit fan sites. Write up a discussion of whether dubbed films or subtitles films are better to watch. Study a martial art. Do this over the course of a year.
That is very different than Jackie Chan as an interest (watching a few of the movies for fun as a break from a busy week).
Ever since I read his article on this subject, I've been paying attention to my kids' affinities and helping them imagine directions they can take them. That's one way to help kids sustain an initial flush of fascination and fan it into something more meaty.
Of course, not every affinitiy needs this kind of development so we need to not turn initial curiosity into a heavy yoke.
Julie
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juliecinci
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I know you are sick of my posts but I have the time so let me just give one example of an on-going affinity in our family.
When we moved to Ohio, we were already fans of Shakespeare movies (and Jon and I were fans of Shakespeare, period). We discovered when we got here a resident Shakespeare company. I found out about Shakespeare camps and signed up our oldest child. He thoroughly enjoyed that week. We then became ushers at the theater and all of our kids have now had the fun of ushering and seeing their performances. We continue to watch movies, go to plays and the kids go to camp. We've become friends with the actors. My husband helps them with their email newsletter.
One year, my oldest two got interested in Taming of the Shrew and I offered to direct a scene between them. That year, they had three opportunities to perform it for an audience! The two of them have continued to read Shakespeare in their spare time and perform in scenes and plays.
The younger ones have benefitted from this deep engagement though it remains to be seen if this is an affinity or interest for them.
My oldest loves Shakespeare so much he reads it in his free time, memorizes passages for his personal enjoyment and is reading Hamlet in Klingon (Star Trek language).
To me, this is what a natural sustained commitment to a course of study looks like in a person's life. It's born out of love.
Julie
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Elizabeth
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tovlo4801 wrote:
It would be ideal if people truly did just evolve by adulthood into people capable of making a lifelong commitment, but my experience tells me that for many, many people now that is not the case. So what is missing? I certainly was not unschooled, so that was not my problem.
Perhaps the question of whether a child grows into an adult who understands commitment doesn't have much to do with how the child was educated after all. Perhaps it has a lot more to do with what is modeled by the people surrounding the child. I'm thinking that children who see people around them who are commited to their faith, to their marriage, to their children, etc., are going to be much better prepared to make their own commitments than children who have not had this influence.
After considering this, I think that commitment comes from what a child sees modeled in their life. Modeling of commitment can come through the commitment of the parents to lifelong learning, to their faith, to their spouse, and to their children. |
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Maybe, but I had terrible role models--aldultery all the way around, alcoholism, lack of commitment to marriage and to parenting children. It made me all the more resolved to be committed. And I know there are others like me--who go from spiritually and emotionally impoverished childhoods to becoming ultra-committed parents and spouses.
I think there must be something else...In my case, I've come up with nothing but grace and the positive experience of good models from literature. Now, I **do** think there are pro-active ways to help our children understand committment and I don't think a good example can be anything but a very positive thing for them...
I'm rambling too.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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tovlo4801
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juliecinci wrote:
| P.S. We have plenty of challenges that I am constantly working on and praying through. I don't want to give the impression that we have somehow solved the dilemmas that have caused me to worry and fret. I'm a pretty adept worry-wort. But when we talk about principles, these are the kinds of ideas that guide me and steady me in times of anxiety. |
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I might have you beat at the worry-wort category.  I think understand what you're saying here. My mother and I were talking today and she mentioned some issue of mine that we had discussed in the past and then said, "Oh, but you've pretty much worked through that haven't you." I had to tell her that I really hadn't. I'd worked through the principles, but actually living by them... well I'm still working on that!
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tovlo4801
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juliecinci wrote:
| I know you are sick of my posts |
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Nope. Not even close. I really appreciate what you (and everyone else here!) have to say. I'm especially grateful for the specific examples of how schooling plays out in your family. It really helps me form a picture of what this might look like for us. I'm piling up a list of books or articles mentioned here that I think might help me figure this out and I'm going to add the two books you mentioned. Thanks again for all the insights!
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Leonie
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I, too, had terrible role models in my childhood, wrt marriage and parenting.
I remember *distinctly* making a decision, when I was eight and during yet another violent argument, that I would NOT live my life like that.
Where did I get this determination? I don't really know except to say that I was an early self taught reader and by age eight had read many books with pictures of a different sort of family life to the one I experienced. They strengthened my resolve, I like to think, and gave me a concept of what family could be.
I am thinking Pollyanna, The Chalet School, the Little House books, Anne of Green Gables here.
I am not sure of how this relates to unschooling or commitment, but it has always been why I share literature and good movies with my dc.
You never know what may speak to a child.
Which is why I am always attracted to CM and living books and self education.
Leonie in Sydney, who promised herself she would not post today!
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tovlo4801
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Elizabeth wrote:
Maybe, but I had terrible role models--aldultery all the way around, alcoholism, lack of commitment to marriage and to parenting children. It made me all the more resolved to be committed. And I know there are others like me--who go from spiritually and emotionally impoverished childhoods to becoming ultra-committed parents and spouses.
I think there must be something else...In my case, I've come up with nothing but grace and the positive experience of good models from literature. |
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Elizabeth,
I think that the models from literature probably had a huge impact on you. And of course grace! I was actually going to add the point about literature into my original post, but eventually deleted it. I think when that good model is missing within the family, it can come from people outside the family or even literature.
This is getting into marriage issues, but my parents had a comfortable divorce. Everyone went to great pains when my parents divorced to assure me that it was OK. I grew up really seeing divorce as an acceptable option if marriage was not working out. (I was not Catholic or even of any faith when I was married.) If my parent's divorce had been more unpleasant, I probably would have been more likely to have that natural desire to avoid divorce. I'm not advocating messy divorces, but the truth is that divorce is not a good thing and it might be dangerous to present it to children as if it's OK. So I was influenced by my parents well-intentioned model of how unecessary commitment in a relationship is.
I can see that someone who can commit to a course of education is not necessarily someone who can commit to a relationship. I think Julie made a good point too, that someone who has learned to commit to things based on outside pressure (school, parents, etc.) may actually not be as equipped to make the internal personal decision to commit to marriage because they are accustomed to going through the motions of commitment without really having the correct internal disposition.
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juliecinci
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tovlo4801 wrote:
I can see that someone who can commit to a course of education is not necessarily someone who can commit to a relationship. I think Julie made a good point too, that someone who has learned to commit to things based on outside pressure (school, parents, etc.) may actually not be as equipped to make the internal personal decision to commit to marriage because they are accustomed to going through the motions of commitment without really having the correct internal disposition. |
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Thank you. Wow. You expressed this so much more clearly. Took me three posts to get at it and you'e summed it up so tidily.
What a rich thread. All of you bring a diversity of experience to the table.
My sister and I said to each other the other night (she homeschools too) that our experience of being in a broken family has strengthened our resolve never to do that to our children.
I can't speak from experience that loving, in tact marriages produce the same kind of resolve in children. But I sure hope so! Anyone want to confirm that hunch for those of us who don't have that experience?
And I love the point about literature offering role models and an alternate vision of life! Beautiful. Three cheers for living books.
Julie
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Julie
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Cindy
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juliecinci wrote:
[QUOTE=tovlo4801]
I! Anyone want to confirm that hunch for those of us who don't have that experience?
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Hi Julie-
I can confirm it: second-hand. That would be my husband's folks. They were very, very happily married until he died an early death at age 68 and his mom is still with us, now at age 85. She still misses him greatly.
It caused my husband to have a firm resolve about what marriage can and should be. Though things have not always been perfect for us, the role models he saw have had a positive impact on him and then on us.
It is nice to see that having a positive role model is not something one must necessarily rebel from. They were NOT perfect, of course, but their marriage was pretty close. :) I wish my boys had met that grandfather.
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Cindy in Texas
It Is About The Journey
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Karen E.
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tovlo4801 wrote:
This makes A LOT of sense to me. Can I rephrase and see if I've got it? As the parent, I need to determine what the essentials are (perhaps with significant input from my child). The lesser decisions on the level of commitment that a certain topic warrants is determined by the child's interest level and discernment of the material's ultimate importance to the child's future ability to function well in life >> ... Do I get it? |
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Sounds great to me, Richelle!
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God bless,
Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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Karen E.
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tovlo4801 wrote:
I can see that someone who can commit to a course of education is not necessarily someone who can commit to a relationship. I think Julie made a good point too, that someone who has learned to commit to things based on outside pressure (school, parents, etc.) may actually not be as equipped to make the internal personal decision to commit to marriage because they are accustomed to going through the motions of commitment without really having the correct internal disposition. |
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Beautifully stated, Richelle.
Like some others here, I grew up without the best role models re. marriage and family life. My parents nearly divorced when I was a teen, and what I took from the experience was the resolve to never commit and therefore never be hurt. And I still didn't understand commitment when I got married at age 24. It was my conversion to Christianity that turned me around.
As Elizabeth said, what is the answer but grace? Our various situations and our varied responses to them leave us with nothing but the mystery of faith. Why do some who are raised with divorce resolve to do better? Why do some make the same mistakes? Why do some make the same mistakes but then receive the miraculous grace of conversion?
Because I've lived in the darkness of atheism, I guess everything, for me, always comes back to my faith. If I am living my faith as truly as I can, if I am transmitting my faith as fully as I can, if I am doing everything I can to steer my children toward heaven, then everything else is secondary. This is not to say that my children's education is not important, but it is to say that I view how we approach education through the lens of our faith. For our family, a relaxed, often-unschooling approach seems to be the best way to reach for the goal.
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Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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Genevieve
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It seems like there is no one true formulae to a committed relationship to me. Some committed relationships were inspired by seeing other committed relationships. Some were inspired by the complete opposites. I think, however, regardless of past and present experiences with relationship, committment is about making a choice. For whatever reason, you and your spouse makes a firm choice. And everyday after, you keep on making that same choice. When the relationship is going great, that choice is easy. When the relationship is sour, that choice is not easy. So what do you fall back on? Is it your belief that things will get better? A resolution that you WILL NOT be like so-and-so? Something must substain you through those times. When people tease me on how difficult it must be to live with my husband, I laughingly reply that I have no choice. On face value that is odd. But what I really mean is that a long time ago, I had already made that choice. That promise. And every time when things get rough, I remind myself that. The decision had already been made. By me. Now it's a matter of making it more easy to live with.
So how does this relate to unschooling. Yes interests do wane and die. But if a child had already promise to do something and his interest is no longer there, yet still follows through with his promise, that's indirectly preparing him for bigger and longer committments, like marriage.
Just thinking out loud.
Genevieve
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Willa
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Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
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Posts: 3881
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| Posted: May 05 2005 at 11:02am | IP Logged
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juliecinci wrote:
[QUOTE=tovlo4801]
I can't speak from experience that loving, in tact marriages produce the same kind of resolve in children. But I sure hope so! Anyone want to confirm that hunch for those of us who don't have that experience?
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DH and I both come from stable, mostly functional, though not perfect marriages. Yes, that does provide a foundation. On the down side, we may not examine our practices quite as intensely -- we may take more for granted than those who are trying to "break the pattern". On the up side, we have that confidence-building precedent, so we know you can make mistakes and still do all right.
One thing though that occurs to me as I type this: I don't think any marriage or commitment nowadays can just "coast" without a lot of soul-searching and conscious work. Marriage and parenting is SO different from what it was just a generation ago. If I raised my kids like my parents raised me, though they did pretty well, I am pretty sure I would lose my kids in today's world. And even in their day, I don't think they completely realized how different my generation was from theirs. We children survived, but took some damage.
That perhaps is an argument for at least a flexible, organic, inquiring kind of education rather than one based too squarely on what's worked in the past. Of course you want to follow eternal principles, but how you work these out seem to be different when the times are different. "intellectual vitality" seems to be important nowadays in so many areas of life, not just academic but also home, marriage, parenting, health habits. We're all learning things now that no one could have ever prepared us for during our elementary school years, because NO ONE could predict them. We will no doubt be doing our kids a service to prepare them for this constant learning curve rather than lead them to imagine that there is a sum total that adds up to an "Educated Person". That's one argument for some version of faith-based unschooling or variation thereof.
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: commitment and unschooling
